Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Recommended reading for NHRA:

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

I dont understand what any of these replies are about......if you want to race with rules be prepared to play the entire game.....not just the part you like......take the hit and go back to the huddle for another play.......what is the big deal here ???? Be a player or play something else.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Well, some of it was about getting the engine back close to the temp everything was when you made your measurements while you were buiding it. Things don't measure the same hot, as cold.

I still wonder if somebody got belligerent and threatening?

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Ed Don didn't say a word. If you don't know him there isn't a nicer guy in the pits. To Rusty point unfortunately in Don's case like many of us he had a engine built by a guy who has alot of engines out there in stock and a carb that many stockers have on it. You put faith in those guys that its right. I just had a brand new engine built. Do you think I was there when they put it together to make sure its right. When I had a set of heads done by Layer do you think I was there saying make sure its right Dave I don't want a vacation? Hell no I assume the guy is a professional and its gonna be right when I get it!

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Rusty Davenport... x2000. Well said.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Not sure how long you been around this sport, but for an infraction like this, it used to be getting tossed. Ever since Kal Kan Tom came along and brought his corporate mentality, it now includes fines and 1 year vacations. I could understand if he's blatantly cheated before more than once, but not the case here at all. "Pay to play" is turning class racing into a country club sport.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

I checked the CCs in every port and chamber of the heads Dave did for me, myself. They were all correct. I measured my throttle body, Everybody makes mistakes, but it is the responsibility of the guy bolting it together to check everything. It is still safer to have everything cooled down before having it all checked. Everybody I know leaves a little bit to compensate for that, but better safe than sorry.

It is hard to believe they would fine a racer for something like that, unless he was causing a big stink about it. Then I might understand it. I worked as a tech man back in the mid 60s, I don't envy their job.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Rusty,
I feel you are correct about parts and sizes being correct by the rules.
The way things are today most good engines are built at very close tolerances. Splitting Hairs is a good way to say it.
I believe the Std Temp for measuring devices is 72 Deg F. If you carry a micrometer around in your pocket all day long it will be close to your body temp. If you measure a part around quitting time and that part is at at room temp, not you body temp, the measurement will be incorrect. The inverse applies, too. Hot or cold part and std temp measurement tool equals a bad measurement. Parts and tools grow and shrink with temp changes even though it may be a small amount they change. One should never use a "Standard" to check a micrometer if they are not both the same temps.
There is the reason for using the Standard Temp.
I think If NHRA is going to fine and suspend you for measurements being out of tolerance the parts should be measured at and by Std temps & practices. That is the same way any good shop should do measurement.
I wonder what temp that .007 out of size carb was?
In the old days I've seen guys hit a carb with dry ice fire extinguisher before turning it in for Tech. Hummm, wonder why.
At tear down I would use a chiller to bring a hot engine to Std Temp. The other use for a chiller is for performance and I think that has been covered well in the thread.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

The bottom line here has to be, why the fine?

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

one thing to consider on the lift issue is that if NHRA's lifter has a different plunger height than Don's that would affect the lift one way or the other.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

I feel sorry for don i honestly do. But in his case they must have used a solid lifter to check the cam.honest mistake.on the carb he needs to talk to his carb man. And i think that one thousand for a fine for a minor lift!! That is a bit much. Now on the other hand for a big carb that is another thing!!! When are they going to start checking for the 55mm cam.half the stock elem field has them.if they are going to let them go I WANT ONE!!!!!!

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

I thought they always used a solid lifter to check.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Absolutely Chad! After a couple of years of being torn down almost everywhere I went with the little Caddy, Travis gave me some of the best advice I ever got. Bring your own solid lifter that matches your plunger height of the lifters in the car! It does make enough of a difference! Don't think so? Try it! Jim


.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

That's what I want to know too. Is there a published "fine list" or does it get made up as things occur?

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

We have a winner!

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Because the fine is a new penalty, and under the circumstances, absolutely excessive. It is without precedent to my knowledge, for a fine to be levied for minor infractions that are not egregious and obviously intentional.

On the lift: NHRA insists on using their own arbitrary solid lifter for checking lift on hydraulic cams, and the last time I asked, refused to provide a specificed pushrod cup height. As such, if they use your pushrod and rocker arm, with their lifter, and their lifter cup height is measurably different than that of your lifter cup height, your maximum lift will also be measurably different. The difference in cup height could easily cause the extra lift.

On the carburetor: On a Q-Jet, the booster venturi is cast in, and not removable, it also sits in the minor diameter of the venturi on most Q-Jet carburetors. That makes it next to impossible to machine larger. And very difficult to measure. It is not like this is a Holly 4150 series carburetor that could easily be enlarged, and easily measured.

So, in essence, it appears Don was DQ'd and fined $1000 for infractions that have historically resulted in a trip home, and having to show up and prove your car legal at the next race. I don't think Don, or any other reasonable racer would have a problem with a DQ here, or having to show up and get checked at the next race. Being called out and fined $1,000, however, is another matter.

If there are now to be fines levied for such infractions, they should be published, and full advance notice given. Further, NHRA should be having all of their measurement equipment certified by labs qualified to do so, and all of their personnel trained and certified in the use and care of said equipment.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Just an observation here from someone that does not race Stock....but has and did in the old days as well as the modern era a few times with various Stockers....



Since they do so few teardowns and have very little time or manpower or will to bother with teardowns at most races.....they are now making an example of someone who failed a teardown for questionable issues.....so it sends a message that you are under the gun so to speak so you better be extra carefull.....although in this case it appears to be totally arbitrary....

and yes your lift will definitely change with any change in lifter pushrod cup height and or pushrod length......and if your very close could easily go over with something different. used to check lift......

I agree that they never fined people for infractions like this as far as I can recall.....generally show up with your car apart for inspection and checked for legality in the area where you were off previously....or a time off penalty......unless you were caught with something really blatently illegal like a delay box....or something like that......

I had a carb checked once and I was told it was too smooth in the base plate bores....a Q-jet.....size was fine but it was too smooth for their liking.....I was told I could race it but don't bring it back to another race.....the car was so slow I asked for someone elses carb that they might have in there tech trailer.....and they could keep my "too smooth carb".... it barely got a chuckle from the tech guy........

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Thanks AR

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Don is running a 350 with a quadrajet carb. He could run a 302 with a 780 holly if he wanted in F/S. I feel sorry for Don. I know he did not intentionally do anything wrong. Since we run division 4 and the likely hood our turn is coming, we checked the lift on our engine last Sunday. $1000.00 could buy several cams to test! The quest for H.P. Never stops!

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

That looks a lot like an old picture of the car. The last pictures I have of the car from Don it had fresh white paint and black stripes, that was a year or so ago. If it has the same carburetor on it that it did when he bought it, he is not running it as a Z/28 with a Holley, because it was a 255/350 with a Q-Jet on it when he bought it.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

If it is a 350/255 the cold air hood is no longer legal.....

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Again, that is an old picture. The car is now white with black stripes, instead of orange stripes, Don sent pictures a while back. If it had the cowl induction hood, odds are, he'd have never gotten far enough to have the lift and the carburetor checked.

To address your previous post about "sending a message", if that is their intent, they're ill advised to arbitrarily pick someone and levy an excessive fine to send a message. It would not be a smart move, unless of course, their intent is to completely alienate the sportsman racers.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

I really appreciate the support from all the fellow racers who have responded and offered encouragement since my engine was torn down at the last Lucas Oil D-4 race in Ennis, TX by NHRA. I am still trying to process the chain of events that have happened since that day and it has been extremely difficult as well as very stressful. I have received numerous phone calls and had many questions come up from other racers as well as myself concerning the proposed fine. The NHRA states, "Please understand, we take no pleasure in imposing such penalties and assure you that our interest lies only in the enforcement of NHRA rules and regulations." I am still wondering how a $1000.00 fine could be imposed without receiving a warning with some instruction or even a suspension before a fine is imposed on a racer? I want to comply with NHRA rules! in fact, I never intentionally violated NHRA rules. I seriously do not feel this penalty was a just punishment for an unintentional violation that I could have corrected very easily and willingly if I would have known about it. I am concerned for my future as well as other racers because the economy already makes it a challenge to afford the expenses of traveling and racing. Though I do feel rules are necessary to maintain standards I do NOT feel harsh fines on sportsman racers will help promote the sport that we all enjoy. It is a shame that this situation could not have been handled differently.
I would appreciate any advice or suggestions. I do plan to do my very best in order to represent the best interest of all my other fellow racers.
Thanks for the support!

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Don, thanks for being a "stand up guy"... I hope it all works out for ya. I have found out, after my DQ in Topeka, that before the rumors could get too bad.....I got on Class Racer and explained the situation. Good for you....it will be OK and we will live to race another day.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Has a hearing been requested to better understand the reason for the fine and also to question what tools and their verification that they had been certified recently.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

I agree with you Alan but NHRA has made many decisions that alienate US over the years and as a Sportsman racer we are all in the same boat here.....I think it is totally unfair to fine someone like this just for what appears to be some minor infractions.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

In the mean time the national & divisional car counts at most NHRA events continue to fall. 49 Stockers & ONLY 36 Super Stockers at this weeks Atlanta national event.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Me thinks NHRA would be just fine to see us go by the wayside in the end. They may just get their wish...always someone else out there to take up the slack. ;)

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

If a racer was given an annual suspension from an infraction at a National event, would his local track have to bar him from bracket racing for the rest of the suspension period, too?

Dale

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

It's across the board, look at the Atlanta Pro numbers. If the Johnsons weren't racing at their home track they would only have 14 Pro Stockers. That said, unless NHRA discloses their "new" criteria for penalizing sportsmen racers by fines it might be wise to for each of us to ask our SRAC reps for them to pursue the matter; otherwise Class Numbers are headed to the Competition Elim. numbers. I plan on emailing my rep as well as Divisional Director.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Any NHrA function or NHRA Track.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

don, obviously very well thought out response. nothing tacky
or done in poor taste. dose not go without notice for me this is
you first post. seems to me fine is excessive, D.Q., return for inspection after corrections made used to be normal
penalty for something like this. Is appeal (of the fine amount) possible? stock/ superstock
and i think all sportsman racers behind you on this.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Tony,

Fred Lippencott Jr. might start racing again at NHRA tracks.

Jerry

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Floyd

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Hey guys.....NHRA provides the rules and if we want to race, we should abide by those rules.....or go outlaw racing at an eight mile track some where....I believe Don made an "honest" error......I believe he should be DQ'd....where I have a problem, is with a fine????? Face it, if you were racing someone and during tear down, they had even a thou too much lift,,,,,,the case could be made that they are illegal....NHRA can't say "that is close enough". They have to draw the line...if you had a "heads up" in the finals,against someone that was "close enough".......you get my point. .it makes no difference how nice the guy is or how close the infraction is (I have been DQ'd for a half cc in the combustion chamber, even though I made up for it in"deck height"). The line NHRA has to follow is what is in the Spec sheet.........the fine is uncalled for......same as an "oil down" fine.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Well said, rules are rules but the fines are ridiculous. I agree with what someone posted earlier that they are not checking as often so they are deciding to use the fines as scare tactics. I think I will just keep the majority of my business with IHRA. Sounds much cheaper to race with them.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Also look at the quotas ,rather low

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

It comes to a point where no matter how accurate the testing the equipment, the sanctioning body, (in any sport) has to quit measureing
to such a minuit fraction.
There are too many other variables in the atmosphere.
As has been stated in other posts, temperature, dust, etc.



Some times there is a tie.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Do not know the details of the valve train in Don's engine. Valve lift could have checked good by the builder. After some runs, do not know how many, there could be a rocker arm stud that has bent or flexed enough to cause a different reading in the cam lift. Been there and done that, just did not get the t-shirt. Had 2 lobes that were .015 short and Holt decided he wanted to check 1 more lobe. Guess what ,.002 too much. Tapped the stud with a hammer and set up again and it checked below spec, although too late. There are variables that could give the wrong reading beside the lifter.

Re: NHRA Levied Actions Against Don Davidson
 

Although I don't agree with a $1,000 fine for such a tiny degree of an infraction, I do agree that the blatent cheaters should be fined for obvious rule violations. A $1,000 fine isn't chicken feed to most sportsman racers including myself and sure is an incentive for the obvious rule breakers to legalize their engines..