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-   -   Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=55089)

SStockDart 10-01-2014 10:53 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
I agree completely with Evan. I have raced nothing but NHRA, since AHRA folded a long time ago. I did go to several IHRA races while I was in Missouri, as a spectator. The 10.5 class and the street radial class is really something to watch. These two classes take some of the horsepower and high dollars out of the equation ....If you don't "hook up" you will likely get beat. The stands were filled with beer drinking red necks.... (my kind of folks)....

I would think that these two classes would be something the NHRA would embrace since tech would be a "No brainer"..

Pro Stock should be a factory frame/suspension with factory body parts.

Just my 2 cents

joespanova 10-02-2014 07:28 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
The NHRA is an "archaic" sanctioning body with their collective heads up their asses and apparently , reluctantly embrace , innovation and thinking "outside the bubble".
The heads up 10.5 stuff with over powered combos ( radials , whatever ) are very entertaining to the casual fans and SHOULD be in the NHRAs program. They weren't exactly quick to embrace Pro mod either. Pro Stock needs an overhaul and the knucklheads in Cali. ( or the teams ) dont seen to get it. Small blocks , turbos and fuel injection should be the order of the day.
Interesting NONE , ZERO of the "pros: ever defend , comment or are ever seen on message boards in the interest of "political correctness" or bad publicity for the sponsors .........or their over blown egos.................

cutta 10-02-2014 09:52 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Anybody have a legit plan for the transition from "current" Pro Stock to what Pro Stock should be? How do you soften the blow of telling teams to sell off millions of dollars of product(ie their current engine programs) to start new engine programs with current production engines. Also, a rule set has to be formed as well between all the different combos and a decision has to be made on whether things will stay naturally aspirated or go boosted(that could be a major talking point as most PS guys are faithfully NA). Considering the people that are already pouring millions of dollars into Pro Stock, you most definitely need their support in whatever plan you come up with because if teams like Ken Black and Allen Johnson decided to retire, your program could be in serious jeopardy because there's no guarantee you could replace their support and money.


In my opinion, I think NHRA needs to develop a 3-5yr transition plan to make Pro Stock more appealing. The first change that should be implemented immediately is a move to carbon fiber stock dimension bodies and rules to adjust for any aerodynamic disadvantages OEM to OEM to maintain parity. The next rule change(within a year) should be a move to fuel injection. Third, they need to develop a plan of how to bring the engines being used closer to OEM production platforms that way teams don't have to throw away all of their current parts. It will still be expensive but it will soften the blow.

At the end of the day, its not a simple fix because you still are having to convince millionaires to trash their current programs and build completely new ones. Thats a hard conversation to have and even harder to keep teams from calling it quits.

joespanova 10-02-2014 10:25 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cutta (Post 448160)
Anybody have a legit plan for the transition from "current" Pro Stock to what Pro Stock should be? How do you soften the blow of telling teams to sell off millions of dollars of product(ie their current engine programs) to start new engine programs with current production engines. Also, a rule set has to be formed as well between all the different combos and a decision has to be made on whether things will stay naturally aspirated or go boosted(that could be a major talking point as most PS guys are faithfully NA). Considering the people that are already pouring millions of dollars into Pro Stock, you most definitely need their support in whatever plan you come up with because if teams like Ken Black and Allen Johnson decided to retire, your program could be in serious jeopardy because there's no guarantee you could replace their support and money.


In my opinion, I think NHRA needs to develop a 3-5yr transition plan to make Pro Stock more appealing. The first change that should be implemented immediately is a move to carbon fiber stock dimension bodies and rules to adjust for any aerodynamic disadvantages OEM to OEM to maintain parity. The next rule change(within a year) should be a move to fuel injection. Third, they need to develop a plan of how to bring the engines being used closer to OEM production platforms that way teams don't have to throw away all of their current parts. It will still be expensive but it will soften the blow.

At the end of the day, its not a simple fix because you still are having to convince millionaires to trash their current programs and build completely new ones. Thats a hard conversation to have and even harder to keep teams from calling it quits.
Then let em go.......go do something else for fun. Nobody held or holds a gun to any of these guys heads to Pro Stock race. Most of the guys do something else for income and these are just fun toys , albeit expensive ones.....time for a "changing of the guard" as they say? Bring in the new blood from the legions of 10.5 heads up camps that would be more than willing to fill in the gaps left by the vacating current N.A. camps. Replace Pro Stock with 10.5 cars.
Yeah.....let em go , cry babies anyway.

skills 10-02-2014 11:34 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
I am a fan and dont race, but i love pro stock. I people keep claiming young people have no interest in cars. Thats funny because how many lowered boosted imports or cobalts have you seen? Adjust pro stock to the times. Yes it will cost money, but if done the right way everybody will win. Try to get as many manufacturers involved since they all have a motor they can push. Perhaps let them do engine sizes with a weight break so you have competition not only with companies but engines also. Young people love cars its just we cant afford a hellcat yet.

FED 387 10-02-2014 11:55 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
NASCAR did a similar thing with their program several years ago-- They said as of a certain date ALL cars will have fuel injection-engines will run on ETHANOL- compression ratios will be lowered etc.- the bodies will more closely resemble their showroom counter parts and be current year production bodies. etc etc----- they gave them a 2-3 year notice so that they could "get ready" & be totally compliant . NHRA has not done anything or very little like that or anything close to that . Nascar teams spend TENS of MILLIONS of dollars to field ONE car/team for a season. The only NHRA teams that approach such massive expenditures like that might be John Force's cars or Tony Schumacher's cars and I'm willing to bet they might be spending only a very small fraction of money for ALL of their cars compared to what a Nascar team spends to field ONE car like $3-5 Million per car per season vs. $20-30 million per car for a Nascar season maybe even more..
Even the best funded NHRA cars/teams cannot begin to compare expenses to what ONE Nascar car/team spends to run for a total season.
NHRA is going to have to make major changes to increase any future factory participitation as well as racers participitation plus keep fan interest in the PRO STOCK category- Some of those changes might be Ethanol vs Gasoline-Fuel injection vs Carb-maybe turbo charged vs non turbo - different body styles to include many manufacturers( domestic/import)-race engines based on current production engine platforms--all things that are based on CURRENT ENGINE TECHNOLOGY & the list goes on--the clock is running and now is the time to implement many of these changes

cutta 10-02-2014 12:03 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joespanova (Post 448163)
Then let em go.......go do something else for fun. Nobody held or holds a gun to any of these guys heads to Pro Stock race. Most of the guys do something else for income and these are just fun toys , albeit expensive ones.....time for a "changing of the guard" as they say? Bring in the new blood from the legions of 10.5 heads up camps that would be more than willing to fill in the gaps left by the vacating current N.A. camps. Replace Pro Stock with 10.5 cars.
Yeah.....let em go , cry babies anyway.
The only problem with your resolution is that most 10.5 legends wouldn't be able to afford to go coast to coast with a national series. That is a big "what if" that you are suggesting. Replacing the millions of dollars of support that your talking about getting rid of is not an easy task. Even now, 10.5 and X275 are not nationally supported. 10.5 is pretty much only supported in the Northeast and Canada. X275 is pretty regional as well. When you have a vested group that have roots in a class like PS, you need to work with them not write them off which is why I think the change to occur needs to happen over 3-5yr span. It can't be knee-jerk or abrupt.

joespanova 10-02-2014 12:54 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cutta (Post 448175)
The only problem with your resolution is that most 10.5 legends wouldn't be able to afford to go coast to coast with a national series. That is a big "what if" that you are suggesting. Replacing the millions of dollars of support that your talking about getting rid of is not an easy task. Even now, 10.5 and X275 are not nationally supported. 10.5 is pretty much only supported in the Northeast and Canada. X275 is pretty regional as well. When you have a vested group that have roots in a class like PS, you need to work with them not write them off which is why I think the change to occur needs to happen over 3-5yr span. It can't be knee-jerk or abrupt.
Its simple really ....they can procure sponsorship through the same efforts contemporary PS teams have................easy for me to say?
Well , you can continue to feed this ailing horse...............or put it out to pasture.............but , at some time in the not too distant future , Pro Stock is either going to change , or die.

Isaac Zane 10-02-2014 02:01 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Perhaps PS will (should?) head to way of what Vic Cagnazzi and Dave Connelly are running this weekend at the Keystones (Maple Grove, PA)? They are both in FS/B with their late model "Stockers".
PS would be of more interest to me with actual current bodies instead of the shell they currently are. Of course I would like Funny Car and Nascar to do the same. And in aging myself, I remember when they actually did.

jmcarter 10-02-2014 02:32 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Nobody should lose sight of the fact that three grey beards (Gray, Black and Johnson) get tired of spending $ and energies or simply take their marbles and go home then PS will essentially fold by itself.

69ss/rs 10-02-2014 03:09 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
there are alot of good ideas as to what should be done to save Pro Stock; but you all seem to miss the forest for the trees. First, does NHRA want to save Pro Stock? From all indications that you see on tv with the interviews with top fuel and funnycar while Pro Stock is running and the abbreviatied time they are given when they run would say no.The only time they spend anytime on Pro Stock is if it has something to do with Erica Enders or there is some type of controversy; which is usually one in the same. Their current agenda is all about Top Fuel and Funnycar. As for the new generation factory cars the only way that NHRA is going to promote them is if the manufactures tell them to. When you go to races where the fans are educated about Stock and Super Stock they will show up with no problem to watch; but when the fans don't understand what they are looking at they leave the stands. Why do you think NHRA makes no attempt to explain class racing.Sorry to run on but that is one of the reasons I stopped racing. By the way is Victor Cagnazzi building motors for Gray or did he buy him out?

600ci 10-02-2014 04:33 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Hmmmmmmm nascar what a comparesion there seats are painted in the
grandstand so it looks like there are more people as there fan base still
drops. EFI, ethanol, and still no improvement. the chase yeah thats really
working out. Does anybody remember what brought nascar to the mass"s
?. A fight between two drivers with there cars parked on ABC (turn 3 daytona) that spirit at that time made racing exciting to watch. as time went
on politics politics and greed take over. Saftey is paramount but arent they
nice to each other.spec racing is just that same car diffrent decal for lights
etc. F-1 look how many people watch that full grandstand"s people hanging
from trees. Wild Willie Borsch, Grump, Landy,Beswick, Al Hoffman, those guys and more gave you a reason to watch drag racing from the grandstands
Give the people what they want excitment sh t there paying for it. un limited big block carburated p/s, pro/mod. ultra/stock. just my 2 cent

Myron Piatek 10-02-2014 07:55 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Zane (Post 448199)
Perhaps PS will (should?) head to way of what Vic Cagnazzi and Dave Connelly are running this weekend at the Keystones (Maple Grove, PA)? They are both in FS/B with their late model "Stockers".
PS would be of more interest to me with actual current bodies instead of the shell they currently are. Of course I would like Funny Car and Nascar to do the same. And in aging myself, I remember when they actually did.
For what it's worth, I was wondering when or if someone would bring up the FS cars. ACTUAL factory high performance muscle cars that people can relate to and buy something similar if so inclined, wheelstanding action, modern technology and RWD!

Of course there are the transition issues, including investments, and rules to keep them closely competitive. But I can't think of an idea with more potential.

JHeath 10-03-2014 09:49 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
1 Attachment(s)
Charlie Westcott's new car.

jmcarter 10-03-2014 10:06 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHeath (Post 448309)
Charlie Westcott's new car.
Why the heck would he do that? Just the challenge? No doubt he has the skill and work ethic to make it competitive but be able to beat a billionaire? Can't imagine him doing it unless he could reasonably WIN.

JHeath 10-03-2014 10:23 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
He seems pretty serious, said he has 7 blocks, and 40 heads.

Robert Simpson 10-03-2014 11:25 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHeath (Post 448309)
Charlie Westcott's new car.
I take it he will have the car re skined? To a Dodge maybe? I don't know what combo he is working on. I hope he paints it flat black and calls it "Ugly Stick"... Best of Luck

JHeath 10-03-2014 12:29 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
[QUOTE=Robert Simpson;448334]I take it he will have the car re skined? To a Dodge maybe? I don't know what combo he is working on. I hope he paints it flat black and calls it "Ugly Stick"... Best of Luck[/Q
It will be a Ford Mustang NHRA pro stocker.

jmcarter 10-03-2014 12:38 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Jerry, thanks for the scoop. Know he likes a challenge and sure enough he's got one now.

FED 387 10-03-2014 01:25 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
You know reading all of the comments on Larry & Pro Stock it seems to me that racers in ALL of the eliminator categories whether it be Top Fuel all the way down to Super Street are not racing for many of the same reasons Larry has expressed. This might be kind of a wake up call for NHRA to actually realize why one of the reasons racer participatation has declined and spectator attendence is not at an ALL TIME HIGH too. Just something to think about.

Mike Pearson 10-03-2014 01:55 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcarter (Post 448316)
Why the heck would he do that? Just the challenge? No doubt he has the skill and work ethic to make it competitive but be able to beat a billionaire? Can't imagine him doing it unless he could reasonably WIN.
Charlie made a comment on a previous thread that it would be cheaper to build a pro stock engine than it is to build a SS/AH engine. Now I guess he is going to give it a try. I for one will be rooting for him.

Superfan1 10-03-2014 02:04 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Pearson (Post 448355)
Charlie made a comment on a previous thread that it would be cheaper to build a pro stock engine than it is to build a SS/AH engine. Now I guess he is going to give it a try. I for one will be rooting for him.
As a longtime, diehard Ford fan, I will definitely be rooting for him.

jmcarter 10-03-2014 02:21 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
I'll root for him as well but don't expect he'll give a lot of credit to Ford....perhaps you'll recall a bowtie painted on his Cuda. Dude definitely is his own man. Who knows, if he pulls it off the Barton's will surely field a Dodge in PS...presto, a new rivalry is born and PS gets revived. After all, life is stranger than fiction!

JHeath 10-03-2014 02:38 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfan1 (Post 448358)
As a longtime, diehard Ford fan, I will definitely be rooting for him.
Heck yeah !!! me too !!! The pic of the Cunningham car was posted on CW's FB page last night, he mentioned in the thread about all the parts that he had obtained. He said on a internet Drag Racing show last week, he bought everything that Ford Racing had !!!

randy wilson 10-03-2014 02:55 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
I don't doubt that Charlie can be a factor in any class he chooses, however I don't think he will find out its cheaper to build a Pro Stock engine then an AH engine. But that's just me.

Ed Carpenter 10-03-2014 04:09 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
At Houston this year I talked to one of my sons friends who work for Allen Johnson. When he said they spend 150k plus for valve springs a year I said ill stick with SS. That's crazy. But turning a 500" engine 11,700 will do that. He said the red car is closer to 12,000.

JHeath 10-03-2014 04:21 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
oops

Mike Brogniez 10-03-2014 08:20 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Hemis rev's are pretty high as well now and with less than an ideal valve train geometry. Will be interesting to see the CW PS entry in action.

Frank Castros 10-03-2014 08:45 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Why a Ford for CW?

joespanova 10-03-2014 09:07 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcarter (Post 448316)
Why the heck would he do that? Just the challenge? No doubt he has the skill and work ethic to make it competitive but be able to beat a billionaire? Can't imagine him doing it unless he could reasonably WIN.
I dont know Wescott other than I know he runs / did.......... in the SS/AH stuff.
He'll be lucky to ever win a round in PS............does he really think he knows anything Morgan doesn't? Yeah , right.
Better off sticking with the Hemi's in SS.

JHeath 10-03-2014 09:14 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joespanova (Post 448408)
I dont know Wescott other than I know he runs / did.......... in the SS/AH stuff.
He'll be lucky to ever win a round in PS............does he really think he knows anything the Morgan doesn't? Yeah , right.
Better off sticking with the Hemi's in SS.
Do you ever have something constructive to say ? Charlie Westcott has nothing to prove, maybe you should check your connecting rods !!

joespanova 10-03-2014 09:47 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHeath (Post 448409)
Do you ever have something constructive to say ? Charlie Westcott has nothing to prove, maybe you should check your connecting rods !!
LOL
Yeah , sure Pal.

Charley Downing 10-03-2014 10:50 PM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Joepanova
Do you live in a **&$ing cave. You are a huge ***** clown.
Charlie is one of the best engine buliders in the country. If anyone can do it he can.
Has beens or never was , will always hate

charlie westcott 10-04-2014 08:22 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
just a couple things,

"At Houston this year I talked to one of my sons friends who work for Allen Johnson. When he said they spend 150k plus for valve springs a year"

At the price that the springs cost, thats 272 sets, so theres 22 races (I think) so do the math.

Most of the time when someone is bragging about how much the spend on something, its because they have nothing else to talk intelligently about.

And as Chuck D said, haters gonna hate.

My success or failure is not directly related to opinions of people on the internet.
That being said, to the people that want me to do well, Thank you, it means alot.
For the people that say I cant, Thank you for the motivation

rocknrolla 10-04-2014 08:25 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Charles Bob

With one car it will be a challenge for the Westcotts but it's cool to see some Michigan based entries back in Pro Stock. hope they keep the stacker and don't waste money on a 500,000 big rig. I'll be cheering them on.

joespanova 10-04-2014 09:09 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley Downing (Post 448419)
Joepanova
Do you live in a **&$ing cave. You are a huge ***** clown.
Charlie is one of the best engine buliders in the country. If anyone can do it he can.
Has beens or never was , will always hate
No asshole , I dont live in a cave. Yes I've heard of / seen his SS/AH stuff over the years . I deliver what you consider a "tactless" message , but the facts are what they are. I can only imagine the contrast between building competitive engines for SS/AH and Pro Stock is fairly significant.........good luck.
Do you really believe that if the most "prominent" engine builders in Pro Stock ever moved over to SS/AH the ladder / elimination results would be the same?

J.R. Haddad 10-04-2014 09:31 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
joespan, Would you consider Jason Line a prominent engine builder?
He has worked all year on a SS/AH combo, and it is not close to
Charlie's stuff. Charlie is a brilliant engineer of horsepower and hard
work, and I for one wish him much success. J.R.

tommy d 10-04-2014 09:33 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Hey, I seem to remember a pretty good Super/Stock racer who made the switch. What was his name.....hmm....let me think??? Oh I remember it was a guy named Glidden. Seems that he did at least qualify once in a while.:rolleyes:

Dwight Southerland 10-04-2014 09:38 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
The negative faction were very critical of Charlie Wescott when he stepped out of Chevy SS into the Hemi wars. I remember it well. There were some pretty extreme comments made on this site about predicting his failure. Since the history of that endeavor is now well known, people should learn not to be hasty or foolish in their comments about this decision he has made.

I do not personally know Charlie (but would like to!), so this opinion is not out of loyalty to friendship. But, it doesn't take a very bright bulb to see the track record he has established with his previous projects. He surely brought a whole new perspective to Hemi racing.

Long before John Force was famous, he said to me that people who consistently build fast cars in Stock or SS could build fast cars in any eliminator and that he hoped to bring the attitudes for detail and for not being satisfied with status quo into professional racing someday. That strategy has definitely been a key component for his success. Charlie executes those qualities and it will be fascinating to see what he does with a program that has languished ever since Glidden (i.e. Ford PS). I personally wish him the best.

james schaechter 10-04-2014 09:54 AM
Re: Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joespanova (Post 448439)
No asshole , I dont live in a cave. Yes I've heard of / seen his SS/AH stuff over the years . I deliver what you consider a "tactless" message , but the facts are what they are. I can only imagine the contrast between building competitive engines for SS/AH and Pro Stock is fairly significant.........good luck.
Do you really believe that if the most "prominent" engine builders in Pro Stock ever moved over to SS/AH the ladder / elimination results would be the same?
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, respect has to be earned. Do not expect it when you throw negative comments out with no basis other than your ability to point out statistics that you cherry picked off of the net. You also failed to do any research about Charlie W.s background first. Everyone gets it. Steep uphill for even the best in Pro Stock. Anyone that has raced in Performance classes gets that.

Joespanova, have you ANY experience in a true performance class at all? It might help put some credibility behind your statements even if the majority do not agree with them.

Too often, the people that are quick to judge others have zero experience making a lawnmower run right, let alone test their mettle against the many other talented class racers. If you did, you might temper your comments.

As for Mr. Westcott, he is a determined racer. He needs not your approval.

I find it more amusing that I actually agree 100% with Chuck Downing...:).


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