Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

SSGN, I have differ with you, there is major interest in the new cars and the fan base is growing fast. I’m not sure how many NHRA national races you have been to, but I can tell that new cars are a major attraction in the pits. Anthony Bongiovanni had 5 new cars in competition last weekend. They were all on display on the main pit road. The steady stream of fans coming up to these cars were awesome. When they opened the hoods the fans were all over the cars. In contrast my car was also on the main pit road and received quite the attention, but not as much as the new cars. When I was over near Anthony’s pit the fans had so many questions about the cars, cars they said they can relate to. On the other hand, although they had some interest in my car, most knew very little about it, only asking if it was a real Shelby.

If The FS class was on Friday instead of Thursday, the stands would have been quite different.

I understand why some racers are upset with NHRA and how they are handling the FS class, but there are some good reasons for the no hp. One reason I can tell you is that if they were to give this new class hp, it would take to long to see what the car potential is. These cars are running all out all the time, NHRA now knows what these cars can run. Another reason is to bring more racer interest to the class. You will see many more teams running FS next year. This weekend alone I found out there will be at least 10 more cars competing in FS next year.

Guys, I know things are not perfect, but there are changes coming next year for the better.

Oh yes, to Billy, all I can say is reality is relative.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

so in your mind ,all the older combinations should suffer in the meantime ,lol

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

No they should not, and I fail to find the humor in it with your lol. In 1969 you might have said the same thing. How do you think the guy with a early 60's car running against a 69 COPO felt. A car that was very expensive and only the few could afford was beating on you and not much you could do about it.

Stock is evolving, many are racing 40 plus year old cars. Can you imagine racing a Ford Model A in the 60's. I'm not saying things are perfect, but with change comes pain. Hell I have an old car to and knows what it feels like to get beat up on.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

I don’t understand how anyone can think that it is fair to have two sets of rules for cars running the same eliminator. One has to worry about getting HP if they try and qualify at the top. The others can just do what they wish and fill all the top spots. At Most races they aren’t bumping people from the field. But it is not right.
NHRA has a couple eliminators with different rules to even things out. Different size engines for Harlely’s and the other bikes but it is done to bring them inline performance wise. What they are doing with the FS class is the complete opposite. If they aren’t going to hit them with horse power then at least give them an index that brings them down to the rest of the field. A great run in FS should result in a -1.10 or so run. Adjust the index to that point.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Yes Billy you did a great job. You always do.

For years now all we have heard about is the attention these new cars are getting and how fast it is growing. Before they got a new car, I have seen the Emmons Brothers stage their cars at national events and draw considerable crowds to their pit area as well. I guess any of these cars can draw a crowd if a group of them are staged along a high traffic area.

And I'm thinking this new car deal has a lot more to do with a power grab than evolution. At least evolution travels along a steady path with rules. And this pain accompanying change mantra doesn't really work for me either. We're not talking about a great societal change that could bring about pain. We're talking about a bunch of new cars that have been granted an elite status by nhra.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

even funnier that NHRA is so stupid. COPO 69 Camaro could be bought new for $4000

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Converted to today that would be about $26,700. Can't build a competitive upper class stocker for that.
Seems like the new cars are going to

Companies/individuals as a way to enhance a business model, guys who have the money to go fast, guys who will mortgage their lives to have one and lastly some guys who have small pee pees.
I ran a two of them before I faded into the sunset. Beat them both, so I don't have an agenda based on them class wise. I like it when they would try to close it up on me going almost 60 mph faster than me.

Update:

The COPO option was around $4,000 bringing the price of the car to about $7,259 which is about $47,500 now.That will buy you 2/3s of a F/S mustang.
Save up your pennies boys and girls.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

The 69 COPO didn't have a roll cage, spool and axles, racing wheels and tires, racing transmission, ready to race engine etc etc

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Not sure how many young people could afford 7200 for a new car 69 and than add the rest of the race equipment.

Karl, a 55 chevy didn't have a 4 speed, a modern engine, carburetor, suspension, and so on...

Granted the new cars have a lot more, but if there was an internet back in 69, there would have been just as many complaints.

Like or not these cars are here to stay. Hopefully the changes next year will make most happy. I suspect that it will make most happy, but there will always be few saying its not enough.

We may not all agree, but I do think its good to here how everyone feels. Being on both sides of the fence, I think the new cars are the best thing that ever happened to stock and super stock. There is more ink and factory support then there has be since the 60's

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

1969 making about $1.60/hour I bought my first new car, "69 Nova 396/375 for $3250; the dealership had 6 427 COPO's at ____price (can't remember), but they had 1 ZL-1 that was about $7200....the ZL-1 was a $4000 option

Surely the 427 steel COPO's were around $4000

No roll bars then, Lakewood slapper bars, Hurst shifter, Scheiffer clutch, Hooker headers, Firestone 7" slicks and raced like crazy while going thru college at Cornhusker, Kearnry and Flightland

Kind of different from $90K entry fee plus another $what

Hey, I like 'em too, but a damn shame racer's heart and soul cut out in those classes with the older cars that are rendered non-competitive and de-valued and parked

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

As a point of interest, the 1969 Chev 350-255 was the first engine to get an other-than-OEM hp factor, and that happened in 1970. A lot of that move was due to racer complaints, although Farmer was in charge at that time and executed through his authority an attempt to level the playing field, so to speak. New technology always throws additional factors to contend with into the mix. NHRA will respond in some addtional ways to deal the new cars; it will be interesting to see what they do. Everybody has a dog in this hunt.

The new cars bring excitement and more general interest into the sport and that is good. I hate that it is so-o-o-o-o expensive to proliferate the excitement.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

5 Pages of comments, and nobody addresses the simple problem. If FS qualify on the same sheet as ANY other class it MUST follow ALL of the same rules!!!!!! otherwise there is NO need to be on the sheet. You can twist the facts anyway that helps you justify breaking the rules.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Well said

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

That is the point!

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Rich,
Maybe I was not clear enough. Below is quoted from my earlier post...

"BUT, I do not agree with letting the FS cars qualify on the ladder with NO worry of HP. Because of the bye runs, this is unfair, and no way to defend it... math here, not just heart strings!"

I will agree again. And use math again... as long as they can play this game to qualify without fear of HP, why would you not try for #1, or where ever looks best for the bye run opportunities?

This is not about the cost of new cars, etc. Not about technology, being jealous, etc. Not even about heads up runs... Once the shoe polish goes on the window, it is just a race.

They are just being given an unfair advantage. This is just ANOTHER instance of NHRA hurting the future of the sport. It feels like they continue to try to drive the average working man out of the sport???

Ken
Stock 412

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

With all the hoopla about all the excitement over the new cars (usually coming from guys running them), did anybody notice the stands at Indy when they ran? LOL

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Were those complaints justified? Just because people complain about something doesn't mean it's automagically wrong, OR unfounded. We saw it with the fuel injected cars, and it took their own separate classes and 10 years to factor them some semblance of properly. It would stand to reason that if mistakes were made in the past that we would try to not repeat them.

Throughout the myriad of threads regarding the new factory cars, the overwhelming complaint is not with the cars, the car owners, or even the factories. Ultimately, the primary issues revolve around HP factors.

NHRA has set the precedent with its baseline factored HP of the factory cars, so it is unlikely they will change. Also based on precedent, it is reasonable that they would create separate FX classes to allow them factor themselves without bludgeoning traditional Stockers heads-up in the meantime. While it doesn't address qualifying (bye runs), it's a start.

Presumably, potential remains in these combinations, particularly since they are so new. It would stand to reason then that their HP factors (S/SS) should be higher and/or the Factory Stock indexes lowered. Each would allow the cars to "stretch their legs" without fear of factoring. A quick glance at Indy and Reading qualifying indicates that the Factory Stock indexes are a MINIMUM of .30 soft. Moving their indexes several tenths would STILL have them dominating qualifying.

Yes, the new cars are cool. VERY cool. VERY impressive. Factory Stock is even cooler. I'd like to have a race for them. As I've stated before, no has asked that they be factored unrealistically high and rendered uncompetitive, but neither should they be factored unrealistically low. There exists a great deal of space inbetween that could be palatable to ALL parties. Enjoying and appreciating the factory cars is not mutually exclusive with realistic administration.

Standard disclaimer: I run a 'factory' engine in SS/GT. Despite better specs all the way around, it is rated 50 HP *less* than my Crate Motor was. My wife told me to build this engine!

$.02,

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Shoe polish people. Nobody has to sell or park anything. Such a simple fix but everybody including the guys who are getting their a$$e$ kicked don't wanna change it. Get out of the 70s

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about, its the fact that these cars can run -1.50 something qualify #1 and there is no repercussions come Monday. If I do the same thing with I/SA car I have to face the music so to speak.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Please tell me the simple fix? Just asking?

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

the simple fix I was referring to was for guys with older cars running newer cars that didn't have a chance taking out heads up runs in in eliminations would give everybody a chance. As for the new cars qualify number one without losing horsepower that will never get changed

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

why would people spend 150 thousand on a car that is factored just like everyone else's? then you will lose interest from the big 3 manufacturers when nobody is buying any more of those cars

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

No the simple fix is to keep the rules the same for everyone that is the same class, eliminator,etc. I understand they are trying to develop a following for these cars and thats fine, let them have the factory shootouts but dont qualify them on the same sheet with everyone else with seperate rules!

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

If you want pure bracket racing, then you go pure bracket racing. Converting Stock Eliminator to pure bracket racing is not the solution, and certainly not the solution anyone here is looking for.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

just as I stated in that post

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Changing the important basic fundamental characteristics of Stock Eliminator does not solve a problem, it merely destroys the class, plain and simple.

If you want to bracket race, there are thousands of bracket races for you, have at it, best of luck to you.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

What does shoe polish have to do with this topic?

If every car that is competing in the same eliminator does not have to follow the same rules, how is that not going to segregate the racers that compete in Stock? Its the us against them. Clear as night and day. The new cars are cool, no doubt about it, and nothing against the owners either. If there is already a race within a race, then allow the guys not in FS to swing for the fence without a penalty too in the regular race. Not rocket science, same rules apply to all if your car competes in Stock regardless if it is FS or not. If FS competes at 4 national events and no AHFS, it should apply to the non-FS cars too.

Sean

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Alan thanks for the post the topic is what is fair for the class not shoe polish not a bracket race at hundreds of places what you get is what I get as ken says stay on the topic.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

That's right cooter

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

[QUOTE=
I understand why some racers are upset with NHRA and how they are handling the FS class, but there are some good reasons for the no hp. One reason I can tell you is that if they were to give this new class hp, it would take to long to see what the car potential is. These cars are running all out all the time, NHRA now knows what these cars can run. .[/QUOTE]

Couldn't they accomplish this same thing by giving them a low index that would take a crazy fast run to hit the -1.00 mark then they can run hard all the time and still follow the rules with the rest of the class.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

So just out of curiosity what do you guys with the problems do if nhra never changes a thing?

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

For me personally I dont have to worry about running one of these cars heads up so that is not a factor and was one of the main reasons for building the combo I have. However I do not plan on attending any of the races where the new cars get a free pass but I am sure NHRA will not care.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Not our problem really it's there problem, if nothing changes it wont be to long before its all gone. The new cars do not have owners that will be around any longer than I will, how many new cars have young owners. What new blood is getting in super stock or stock with the new cars or the old cars! The pay outs do not justify the means anymore, we all know it's about over with we just keep hoping it will turn around. The only younger kids coming in to racing are the ones that are taking over there daddy's ride just as I did and that will not keep stock and super stock alive. Comp, Pro Stock and the fuelleys are in the same boat! To your real question, I will end up with the shoe polish in my hand at my local bracket race, because in the end I just want to race.

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Maybe some will just do what Scott Burton did... just go to the next race and win the damn thing!

TP

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

See you at the races Mickey. We shall return. :D

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

10-4 alan hope all is well maybe we can return

Re: FS cars exempt from HP?
 

Mickey. Until NHRA puts them all in FS, FX or SS where they belong......, they wont get HP quick enough. Same class older iron don't have a chance against the new cars so why would I race them? I have nothing against the new cars or the folks who own them. I just think NHRA made a mistake.