Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

We've had this discussion before on the phone. Too much to go into here but I'd be happy to go over it with you again. You are right about making large gains when moving to a clutchless with a crappy driver. The real gains are in getting the slippage right to keep the motor at max power. I picked up .13 at my first race with a 288 in C/SM with just the clutch setup. -.45 to -.58

The reality I think you fail to see here is the overall advancement of technology and the related costs. Few people here have raced in a heads up eliminator. You've run comp before so you know what I mean. Your proposals will limit costs somewhat but in the end money will rule even more so than the class based eliminators. The guys who can't keep up will get discouraged and quit and here we are. Fact: Drag racing in any form is very expensive.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I agree completely, the trans rules are way outa whack between stick and auto, unless you want to put weight on the automatic cars. You are basically giving autos every new thing up to date and sending the stick cars back 20 years

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

No inexpensive trans out there.

G Force 4000+
Jerico 4000+

No ones going to run anything else because it wont last JMO....

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Thanks guy. But I have not ran Comp, I attempted to get to run comp. Big difference. Ha! I truly do respect any and all opinions, but I must disagree with the fact that the cost would get out of control unless allowed to. The problem in my opinion early in Mod was tech turned a blind eye to discrepancies. I remember running Modified at Bristol in the 80's, and watched a D\EM run and he was clutchless the whole way. No one said a word. I watched several others do the same thing. I thought, "What a joke." Either it's a rule, or it's not in my opinion. Now, if policed tightly, I just don't see how it can get out of control, but I'm willing to listen. Let's break it down a little. Block, around $2,000. heads with the best allowed parts, with rockers,$4,000, intake, even if CFE or Wilson does it. $1,800, pistons, $1,800, best rings, $1,300, crank allowed $1,000, rods, $1,100, oil pan, $1,000, carb, $1,200, spacer, $100, cam, $500, lifters, the best, $1,200, cam gear and chain, the best, $250, Harmonic balancer, $500, water pump, $250, oil pump, $100, distibutor and crank trigger, $500, valve covers, $250, push rods, $500, plus $3,000 misc. That comes to $22,350. Way cheaper then some classes, and most have at least 60% of this stuff laying around. How can it get out of control? Have a very tight rein on the heads, and cost will be down. Plus, you never have to update the heads, and if you hurt one, $500 buys you a bare spare.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I agree, those two trans are the only way to go, but many already have them, and they will last a long while. I know me personally, I would rather run a clutch assisted with a 250# wt. break then an auto against a true clutchless, but that's just me.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

This is directed to Pvr Parts. I may have just had a bad experience with trick clutches, but after spending $3,800 for a small diameter dual disc to replace our McCleod softloc, we had big expectations. The car went from running 5.90's at 119 mph to running 6.20's at 117 mph. We turned every nob on the thing, and if it slipped, it ran 6.20's, if it locked up, it ran 6.20's. Nothing changed. We could have bracket raced it, but it wouldn't get out of it's own way. Went back to single disc, 5.85, 120 MPH. Go figure. I just hated buying things guaranteed to help, that do nothing but kill your momentum. And no we never tried a different brand. If a mule kicks you twice it's your own damn fault. And I will not bad mouth the clutch company. Many are successful with it.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

What was that combo?
My car is an almost perfect fit for your rules proposal.....except I'd have to add a few pounds.........which I wouldn't like.
I have made as many clutch assisted passes as most and working from strickly base is a non issue for me.........I don't understand the problem the other guys are having? I use a 10.5 Soft Lok and Nash .......

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I noticed one of the rules is no data loggers, When I was running my AX combo and went from a softloc to a really nice fully adjustable single disc i saw a lot of improvements of course without the data logger to assist in tuning I too may have seen no or little gain. This is in no way trying to say a softloc is not a good clutch, it is just like a powerglide is a good trans but compared to a proflite or a turbo XLT they're merely stone age technology (for going fast).

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

The combo I had at the time was a 288 dart Buick in an 08 cobalt. We were thrilled with the MPH, and had high hopes. We weighed 3,040 lbs, G-Force 5 speed clutch less, and actually went from a single 4 to duals and picked up 23 HP. Went out all excited. Next thing I know the cops have a warrant out for our arrest for impersonating a drag racer. I don't see the problem either with a 10.5" clutch min, and single disc. Not if everyone has them. Again, I ain't too bright on the auto deal, and some of these guys claim they would be quicker. Might be, but that actually surprises me.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Also, we had a data logger, and we wore that poor engine out, and finally threw in the towel.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Oh yeah , now I remember the Cobalt.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

So the suggested basic clutch is? and basic auto trans should be ? to be about equal?( and not excessively expensive)

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I still like the 10.5" min single disc. Auto guys need to chime in. That is a legitimate clutch. Why does NHRA still give autos a 5 percent wt break? Just asking. I still think a manual will run with an auto under these circumstances.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

One more question: Suppose you blew your $25,000 motor (or more) and still wanted to continue racing, or just had your uncles old Mod car or have a son who you would like to help get into Drag Racing. Would you consider this EconoMod or SS car a better way to get back into racing? or would you put all your cash into regular class car?

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Well,,, it answers one of them. Just to be fair,,, I did go on the Brodix website and looked up the spec heads you suggested,, heres what I found:
SPCH (Chevy): 2.08 int - 1.60 ex. 215cc runner - 23 degrees
SPFO (Ford): 2.08 int - 1.60 ex. 195cc runner - 20 degrees
SPMO (Mopar):2.08 int - 1.60 ex. 192cc runner - 18 degrees
Now, I may not be the brightest light in the harbor,, but other than the stated valve sizes,, these heads don't look alike to me,, when runner volumes vary from 192 to 215 cc,, a difference of 23, and valve angles have a difference of five degrees, from 18 to 23.
I did see that AFR offers a 195cc SBC head that's closer to the other two in runner size, and I know there are manufacturers that offer 18 degree heads for SBCs,, and that the Mopars seem to have the smallest offerings from the various head makers.
I don't know what your solution will be, but perhaps you'll have to agree on a runner volume, a valve angle and valve sizes and let the racers do their thing. Knowing the rules is their responsibility, and they should know that this could be policed at any given event,, so racer beware. Just a thought, since the "spec" heads appear to be so different. I would love to see this class take off,, don't get me wrong, good luck with it.
Danny Durham

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Look up the flow numbers, and get back to me. The light may then go off. The reason for the CC's of those heads are to make a stock valve angle flow with other stock valve angles. An 18 degree, and a 20 degree valve angle already has a leg up. I'm all for them designing an 18 degree straight across the board that flows the same. Problem is, they don't. I think some slam this idea because it is a threat to the norm. I never comment on classes that don't concern me, unless to give an opinion on such, but could care less if said class exists. I find it very odd that people running classes that this will have zero negative effect on their class, or this class, or any class even opine.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I also agree with Sean on the whole clutch manual trans rules. You have no real rules for the auto guys but you want the stick guys to add weight and no this and no that. Why don't you just say NO STICKS allowed and be done with it! Or make the auto guys run a junk yard stock auto with a 10.5" convertor with a 1800rpm max stall?

As far as no counterweights go there are ways around that as well as the no data logger. You know that doesn't mean you can't go testing with a data logger. Get the clutch dialed in then pull the logger out for the actual race.

In the end big money will prevail in the class and kill it! If what you want is a real budget minded entry level class look at the NMRA's Coyote Stock class. They buy their engines sealed from Ford with a factory tune. You can't pull any part of the engine apart or it breaks the seal and you have to buy another engine. Something like this will be the only way you will have a true entry level budget class that will live. Let the Ford guys use the already stock 5.0 crate motor for their cars and get GM and Mopar on board to supply a comparative deal with all sealed motors then turn them loose!

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I'm personally not afraid of an auto against a clutch assisted single disc 5 speed. Maybe I would be later, but I don't see that they have an advantage. Also, take away their wt. break. As far as the computer, ya, that will happen with autos and sticks, but raceday is a different animal. With a single 10.5 or bigger single disc with no counter wts. with base only it's way less expensive, and not as advantageous. Again, people who have other options and ideas are making the class just as expensive as Comp. If you allow Comp rules, why even go down this road. The heads alone are only part of the cost saving this class would allow. you have to have other areas to shave expenses. And on stick cars, That's all I would enter, so I doubt I'm trying to put them behind the 8 ball. Not long ago everyone ran a single disc and clutched every gear. In SS\CS we ran as late as the year before KC closed, with that combo, and phase 2 heads, and ran 9.76 142 and change. The crate thing will never work in my opinion, because all heads up racers want some areas to explore.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Randy, I know you are a stick guy. If you are going to limit the clutch and trans this much, you should limit the auto guys to a ten inch b&m holeshot converter.

Why not keep it simple and cheap. Just say single disc no billet clutch. Disc size and counterweight allow people to tune and prevent breakage for no money. It is the billet stuff that can get pricey. As far as weight breaks, allow clutch less or no weight break. Let the auto guys do whatever they want then.

We ran modified in the 90's and we would have had a lot more fun and less cost running a smaller disc clutch with less base and more counterweight. I would not see going back as a cost savings even if you had to buy new stuff.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

James, you make some very good points. I'm not denying what you say is true. That being said, the reason I was going with true clutch assisted is because of all the fans of drag racing that I have talked to about this, is the one thing they miss the most other then dry hops, are the guys having to clutch and shift. They say clutchless cars and autos are boring. Just trying to make it more of a drivers race. And one more thing I'm interested to know, and and not being smart, I truly want to know. Why do so many SS and Comp guys have 6 or 7 different $4,000 dollar clutch setups if they are all good? I'm saying you take that part of the equation out. I've tried virtually every single disc, clutch assisted setups they made, and never found much over .03 in all of them. That can't be said for the other setups. Found more in the fly wheel wt. then different clutch models.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I think the clutch assisted is fine, but even those transmissions won't look a lot different to the average fan. No one will be clutching them. They will cost less than the average clutch less though.

As far as clutches go, we have never purchased one new. We just have them rebuilt to our specs. Some guys have a lot of them for the same reason they have 3 engines at 40k each, because they can. There is et in the hot dog clutches if you are willing to test and you are willing to treat the clutch as a wearable item. You need to slip it to be fast. That means they will wear out. Because they will wear out, you better have two so you aren't down too long when it needs service.

Usually guys that like the heavy stuff only do because they dead hook it. They last forever, but they won't be as fast. Get a small light clutch and work it over! Some of the very small stuff out there has a small tuning window. One screw up in the bell housing or the burnout box and you are pulling it out.
Ask the auto guys that are fast how many convertire they test and how many transmissions they have. When we raced autos we were on our backs smelling transmission fluid all of the time! The automatic guys have been babied long enough when they have to race stick guys. In a true clutch less environment they might have a case for a few lbs, but not when they race against clutch assisted transmissions.
Not a bad idea, the spec class, but I do agree, you need something that will give racers confidence that the class will be around awhile. The coyote class deal would be cool if chevy and mopar stepped up also. None of this is easy to get started, or to police when it does get started. if you drummed up some support from the big three, it might hang in there awhile

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Thank you James. A truly unbiased intelligent post.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I won't bother with flow #s at this time. I'm glad you never comment on nonconcerning classes, except to offer an opinion,, which is all that I'm doing, among the others on here. If you go back to post #1, you invite us all to "review and consider" this proposal that you and Dick have put together, which I'm sure you two put considerable time and effort into. For that alone, I find it very odd that YOU find it very odd that we wouldn't take time to "opine" on this topic if we weren't interested in it, regardless of what class we're in. After all,, its about getting more cars and people out to the track, and I'm for that.
Danny Durham

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I'm for anyone's opinion on a positive note. Any negatives in my opinion should be to help fix any problems they might see coming up, which some have intelligently stated. What we weren't needing is people who have zero interest in something like this slamming it just because. That was my point. I hope you do have an interest in it. Truly. The Brodix stuff is ONLY listed because I could find no other manufacturer that even had a spec head for the big three. Also, I have about as much pull with NHRA as I do with the United States Congress. ZERO. So the chances of anything happening here are slim to none. And I do not mean to slam you. That ain't getting us nowhere. What I meant was I don't comment on let's say all the new cars, and classes in Stock. It doesn't concern me in the least. But I understand the concern of those involved.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

In regard to stick versus auto I bet the best runs data that Nitro Joe has could compare 283 cars or 327 cars stick and auto and give a fair indication of the gap.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Great post Dick.Apples to apples. Also, I want everyone who has looked at, and commented on this post to realize I have nothing against some mods brought up, other then the whole premise of this thread is to find a cheaper way to run Comp style. Therefore the eliminations of some mods that cost money. If we only limit the heads, we've only eliminated about $10,000. That's why I brought up the computers, clutches, vac, etc. No other reason.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I am beginning to get supportive phone calls from SS and comp racers who understand the need for a fresh look at Sportsman Drag racing. Suggestions on open tire size, full tree, supporting Clutch plans etc. Keep them coming guys sounds like more silent support than verbal on the site. If you fight the HP/LB battle long enough and watch a couple cars become paper wts and see the vanishing racers it is more obvious.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Dick
I had a post back in Sept/ 2012 about bringing back super/mod, got 185 post to that.
Alot of good suggestions to what would work.

I think you were the third to post to it.

Hammer