Originally Posted by charlie westcott (Post 476730)

I sent this letter to NHRA today. Not expecting much out of it, but I felt it needed to be said.


As you know, I am in the process of building a PS car. I keep hearing these rumors online, and hearing the BS spewed by people that have no clue, "keyboard racers". It offends me when people slam the class that people like me have looked up to their whole lives.
I am well aware that your organization owns the sand box that I play in, and I will as always abide by the rules of whatever class I choose to run in, but it scares me when I hear that you want to make wholesale changes to a mainstay of NHRA drag racing.
I feel that it is opportunistic to say that it needs "fixing" because of poor car counts, when every class there has poor turnout. I remember when there were 100 ss cars at a points meet, when now there are 50. Does that need fixing as well?
If the class is made so the "average" racer can do it, what will happen is a bunch of people will jump in the first year, then after they figure out that the same people that dominated before, will continue to do so, they will go back to racing whatever they were before, or quit, which no one needs.
The argument is commonly made that "new cars dont have carburetors". Well, new cars also have 4 doors, and front wheel drive, so why dont the keyboard racers lobby for a class for them also.
The problem as I see it is, the people dont know about, or care about the drivers. There arent many driver/tuners/builders like there used to be. Everyone has a big wallet and rents a motor, or car, blows their wad, then when they run out of money, they quit.
If the rules are changed, the people with the most money/manpower are going to dominate, then rent motors to the others, and we are right back to where we are.

I have spent around 150K on my project so far, and am actually real close to putting the engine in the car to go test. I feel like now I have to hurry up before our class is gone.

I have listened to (name withheld by me) spew about how PS sucks, and the new cars are the way to go, and feel that as a marketing person, his arguments are self serving, and good for no one.

The new cars arent bringing "new" blood into the sport, how many young racers do you know that can spend 90k on a car to run stock? The buyers of those cars are more rich guys, that know nothing about the roots of drag racing.

I dont know if I will see you at indy this year, I think I am going to stay here and try to get my new car ready so I can run it before its obsolete.

thanks
cw

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 476587)

Make the cars look like production cars with slicks and a small hoodscoop. Fuel injected, since carburetors are apparently an evil relic of the dinosaur era. Leave the 5 year rule in place

Originally Posted by joespanova (Post 476644)

Alan the "oracle' of Class Racer......you always seem to have an "long winded" answer for everything.......... but seem non receptive to anything that doesn't align with your way of thinking.
500 inch engines and carbs are , in fact , archaic....... no longer appropriate for or indicative of , anything coming from the big 3. That concept should have died 30 years ago.
Pro Stock truck sucked , frankly , because like myself , most didn't CARE for a "truck" as a platform for a drag car. That should have been applied to the CARS..
As I stated in another thread......this will be interesting to see who cries the loudest and what new life is injected in to ProStock .

Originally Posted by blkjack (Post 476762)

the five year body rule has been gone or do you want to bring it back?

SECTION 16 - PRO STOCK
DESIGNATION
PRO, preceded by car number.
Reserved for 2005 or later NHRA-accepted 2-door or 4-door
coupe or sedan (domestic or foreign) production vehicles

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 476767)

The comment about "the 5 year rule" was simply a suggestion.


I'm not convinced Pro Stock has to have any real changes to survive. The reason I posted what I did was to suggest what could be done to move the class slightly toward a new direction, rather than the wholesale changes being proposed, because a lot of people smarter than I am don't believe Pro Stock could survive massive changes.

It may be that with new leadership, and the new television and promotion package, Pro Stock can become more healthy (read: more competitive teams, and more spectators) without any changes at all.

Having talked to a few Pro Stock racers over the years, I do not think the class could survive the radical changes being proposed by some. Wescott's post pretty much sums it up. If you force racers to throw away the cars they already have, AND their engine programs, the vast majority are done, whether they want to be or not. It simply is not financially feasible. Ken Black might be able to do it, maybe Cagnazzi, Skillman, and possibly Allen Johnson. Few others.

Pro Stock hasn't really been about racing what the factories are selling since around 1973 or so. Remember, they were racing Vegas with 327 small blocks, Pintos with 351C engines, Camaros with 368 big blocks, Hemi powered Arrows, and various other combinations not even remotely like new cars of the time. The closest Pro Stock ever was to what the "race what they sell now" crowd is wanting is in the earliest days, when Jenkins put a tunnel ram on a ZL-1 Super Stock 69 Camaro for match racing. Three years or so later they were racing tube chassis V8 powered econo cars.

A lot of people have been proposing FX classes to showcase the new cars. That's a great idea. I am completely in favor of a new FX class that showcases the new cars. But it is completely wrong to try to force Pro Stock to become that FX class.

I find it sort of bizarre, and somewhat amusing, that some people, who do not race Pro Stock, out and out demand that people already racing Pro Stock throw away millions of dollars of equipment, so that the people who do not race Pro Stock can have a class that they want to see, but will not invest a dime in racing in.

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 476767)

I find it sort of bizarre, and somewhat amusing, that some people, who do not race Pro Stock, out and out demand that people already racing Pro Stock throw away millions of dollars of equipment, so that the people who do not race Pro Stock can have a class that they want to see, but will not invest a dime in racing in.

Originally Posted by joespanova (Post 476813)

Alan , only you would find it "bizarre and "amusing".
What so bizarre and amusing? Rules changes to a class that's waaay overdue? Yeah , thats pretty "bizarre" and "amusing".
Forget about engines that are "EXACT" to production platforms , BECAUSE A 500 INCH ENGINE SURE AS HELL ISNT...............it doesn''t matter that Ford doesn't have a good 2 valve combo , or Dodge or whatever. I'm talking purpose built race engines on a smaller scale. The 500 inch engines are so far removed from anything production...... AT A MINIMUM wholesale changes need to be made to represent todays engine displacements closer to 350 -427 inches...then add fuel injection......whatever. Carbs have to go. Its really very simple and some of you seem to over dramatize or attempt to complicate a simple solution........forget about the Pintos , Vega's and Arrows , EXPs.
Settle on " A " displacement more indicative of todays cars. The changes about Pro Stock cannot be an intention to make a change while keeping those participating happy at the exclusion of attracting new participants.
And theres a fine line between exclusion and extinction.

Originally Posted by Chuck Rayburn (Post 476735)

Well said. Couldn't agree with you more. Pro Stock does not need fixed! Give em hell, Charlie.

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 476828)

What I find amusing is that you seem to be willing to spend other people's money, and force them to submit to your demands, in a class they race in. Do you participate in Pro Stock? Do you have money in the class?

Exactly what is it that makes you think that Pro Stock needs to represent current production engines? It has not done that in a solid 40 years, and the class is not dead yet.

There is nothing simple about what you propose. I guess you didn't read what Wescott wrote. Either that or it just doesn't matter to you that your "simple solution" just completely kills his massive investment of cash and time. Yeah, you telling Wescott, and a couple dozen other struggling Pro Stock racers to go get screwed "because the class has to change", at least according to you, isn't dramatic. At least not to you, since you don't have $250K+ tied up in a racing operation and your struggling to stay in the game. I'm sure it is real simple to you to just rewrite all the rules, and render their massive investment completely worthless. They won't find their life's investment going down the toilet to be the slightest bit dramatic.

It's always great when people come along and tell you that you must allow them to completely change the very character of something you do in order for them to "save it". I'm sure the Pro Stock racers are thrilled to have you decide for them what should go on in their class.

What is next for you? Are you going to tell Force, Schumacer, and Kalitta, among others, that they must convert to 4 valve per cylinder DOHC I4 and V6 engines, gasoline, and turbochargers? I mean, after all, they're racing those dinosaur engines with those monster superchargers that are nothing like what the factories are producing.

Originally Posted by joespanova (Post 476813)

Alan , only you would find it "bizarre and "amusing".
What so bizarre and amusing? Rules changes to a class that's waaay overdue? Yeah , thats pretty "bizarre" and "amusing".
Forget about engines that are "EXACT" to production platforms , BECAUSE A 500 INCH ENGINE SURE AS HELL ISNT...............it doesn''t matter that Ford doesn't have a good 2 valve combo , or Dodge or whatever. I'm talking purpose built race engines on a smaller scale. The 500 inch engines are so far removed from anything production...... AT A MINIMUM wholesale changes need to be made to represent todays engine displacements closer to 350 -427 inches...then add fuel injection......whatever. Carbs have to go. Its really very simple and some of you seem to over dramatize or attempt to complicate a simple solution........forget about the Pintos , Vega's and Arrows , EXPs.
Settle on " A " displacement more indicative of todays cars. The changes about Pro Stock cannot be an intention to make a change while keeping those participating happy at the exclusion of attracting new participants.
And theres a fine line between exclusion and extinction.

Originally Posted by Lee Valentine (Post 476898)

I've kept quite on this post,if I was a comp racer I'd be worried.I can see comp being replaced by a factory stock type of class and pro stock staying where it is with some tweaking.

Originally Posted by Barry Polley (Post 476837)

How about the new cars starting their own say, F/PS class and evolving like PS has? After all they are all using current PS technology. I think it would be great. PS might...., need a little tweaking but not from the new factory cars. PS cars are light years ahead of them.

I got the memo Alan! I am ready!

Originally Posted by BLIND MULE (Post 477555)

Originally Posted by davidhuff (Post 477578)

To save NHRA Pro Stock there has to be changes.
There is only 15 pro stock cars at the Mopar Mile High Nationals.
How is that working out?

Originally Posted by larrylomascolo (Post 477616)

Can someone tell me how F/I will make it more fan friendly ,I think leave the traditional carb

Originally Posted by Mile High (Post 476796)

I've always wondered why NHRA starts their Sunday show with the fuel dragsters. Why start with the fastest cars on the property. Start with Pro Stock Bike or Pro Stock then get faster. After the casual spectator sees the fuel cars the "slow" Pro Stock stuff is boring. Also they wouldn't have to change the run order for the finals.

Jeff :)

Originally Posted by keith ohanesian (Post 477655)

"Removing the carburetors will allow them to design intake manifolds and systems that have the correct dimensions and still fit under a flat hood. Of course, that depends upon what NHRA allows them to do, especially regarding throttle body size/configuration and injector location"

How? Their post said throttle body fuel injection. Not port fuel injection. So the throttle bodies and injectors will still be up top and will have a wet manifold.

Originally Posted by keith ohanesian (Post 477655)

"Removing the carburetors will allow them to design intake manifolds and systems that have the correct dimensions and still fit under a flat hood. Of course, that depends upon what NHRA allows them to do, especially regarding throttle body size/configuration and injector location"

How? Their post said throttle body fuel injection. Not port fuel injection. So the throttle bodies and injectors will still be up top and will have a wet manifold.