Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
IMO, I think there are more races held now, between Sanctioning bodies, Associations and individual events, there are only so many races that can be attended by a Class racer with the expenses stated previously. Racers choose according to Distance and payout. When does class racing become too diluted with races to sustain large car counts?
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Rich -
You have pointed out a very valid point of analysis. The "scaling" that was attractive and an incentive in earlier days is not much of a factor now. There is surely a homeostasis that has become a major factor in analyzing attendance. |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
One factor not mentioned is the old fun meter. The addition of classes, not to mention draggin bagger!!,snow mobiles, TS TD, makes a looong day for class racers, usually a time trial mid morning, then a second at 6 or 7 if lucky.
Get an oildown or rain and we have been at the track at times from 7AM to 11PM, hard to invite friends and have them sit around 10+ hours When Topeka first opened, I remember SS TT on Sunday mornings!, kinda felt like part of the event. 3-4 TimeTrials, Class, Teardown, spread over 4 days, now one can be loaded up and on the way home Friday mornings for those weekend "honey-do" projects one was trying to avoid. For me, gas between 2 &3.85, and race gas costs, motel bills are not keeping my 100K+ operation at home |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Randall, I always value your opinion and most others as well. I know Pure Stock has been tossed around a while, maybe? These cars in Stock and Super Stock are so far out from where we started, maybe we need to start again? Cost to race is not for the light hearted. Maybe that is why all the old guys. I think they call it 'prime earning years'. Today I think the popular is 'long easy payments' and '11 second dead stock cars'. I miss the old days of winning class to run the eliminator. Love that wagon.
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
It won't die, it will grow if you sign and share this:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/n...rtsmancoverage |
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I could be wrong on this but IF this were to become reality it would play directly into the "deep pockets" group of racers. And here's why...Sealed engine, so let's see how we make this thing faster, ceramic bearings every where BIG $$$$$$, ultra trick and lite trans, again lots of dough, $4000 aluminum converters, ultra lite axles, oils thinner than water @ $ 20 a quart, $4500 third members that will spin with a gust of wind. Yeah sounds like a sealed engine comp class to me. Good luck Dick but it's been proven over and over again that the stricter the rules, the more money gets spent. I'm not quite sure what "problem" you're attempting to fix but to me at least it looks like "Class" racing is alive and well. Joe
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
As far as sealed crate engine classes go, the NMRA started a Coyote class several years back that required a sealed production line engine.
I looked into it and added up everything a competitive car would cost to build to run that type of race (heads up) and it wasn't long before it exceeded $ 21,000. I stepped away from the idea and then bought a turn key NHRA Stocker for half that and have had no regrets since. |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
I think we should take a moment and realize this concept...class racing..despite problems from time to time...has been ALIVE for some 50 years or so...maybe more?
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
What a great thread. Lots of satisfied people with the Stk eliminator and SS eliminator as it is currently called. Many call it class racing and that's true in the sense it has to be a class legal car.
Some miss the point by a mile some recognize the need for an entry cheaper way to get new involvement. Many are satisfied with their current status and car. Some recognize the factoring problems but no one on this thread has added anything about being beaten by a lightly factored combination except Jack.. I assume that means eliminator participation is the product people like most. |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Define what is "cheap"? What's an acceptable dollar figure for entry level 1) Stockers and 2) Super Stockers? What's an acceptable performance level for such a car? What is the goal/purpose of the car?
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Dick, there is a 'cheap' entry to stock and super stock, it's called bracket race until you can afford to move up to class racing, that's what I did. I didn't ask for anyone to change the rules to accommodate me. When I first started is SS, I couldn't run the index but I kept at it until it worked. If it comes to the point that I can't afford SS or don't like the rules, I won't complain, I'll just go back to bracket racing.
Jim Caughlin SS 6019 |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Right On, Jim!!! Your experience and thoughts are a carbon copy of mine!
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
[QUOTE=Jim Caughlin;477222]Dick, there is a 'cheap' entry to stock and super stock, it's called bracket race until you can afford to move up to class racing, that's what I did. I didn't ask for anyone to change the rules to accommodate me. When I first started is SS, I couldn't run the index but I kept at it until it worked. If it comes to the point that I can't afford SS or don't like the rules, I won't complain, I'll just go back to bracket racing.
Jim Caughlin SS 6019[/QUOTE Again this posts the fact that Most people are pleased with taking a class legal set of rules and building a car to compete. They are having fun and the Heads Up Class racing component doesn't come up in their responses. Jim you are correct as far as you go with your comments. How many cars are in your Class when you go to a national event? Are they a good heads up race for you or are you #1 in class and can win a trophy? or are you just pleased to race the Points meet format? To me Eliminator at points meets is only a part of the picture.Winning a class trophy is the rest. To each his own but when dial in Is what you live for ......are you really running class? |
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1) Slow death of Class Racing( except your meet and one or two Nationals) Point is the more legal motors and the more factors the more inequity of factoring influences who can win a trophy in Class Racing. This creates the feeling Eliminator qualification and being able to race in that portion of the event is THE goal. This minimizes the achievement of winning a Trophy or beating 8 or 10 cars of similar make up to show you have that kind of skill. 2)Second topic which has been added by some is cheap class car for entry. Cheap one of a kind Dime Rockets are around. Some relish creating a beautiful one of a kind #1 Qualifier complete with all hand built creations. That is great and to be congratulated but..... who does this car race- Heads up? No One. If people feel a cheap entry level car could help attract new blood, bring back retired racers, serve as a place to decrease their cash investment and still race, that is my discussion. I have no idea of the cost but they must all be the same and all given a chance to win a trophy. Only lb/cubic inch. No more rule book wonders. Basic motors and trans rules as in prior Mod posts. Reward for work not changing cars or motors. A sealed motor is around 4500$ and a retired roller might be 10,000-15K |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
2)Second topic which has been added by some is cheap class car for entry.
Cheap one of a kind Dime Rockets are around. Some relish creating a beautiful one of a kind #1 Qualifier complete with all hand built creations. That is great and to be congratulated but..... who does this car race- Heads up? No One. If people feel a cheap entry level car could help attract new blood, bring back retired racers, serve as a place to decrease their cash investment and still race, that is my discussion. I know there is backlash to the whole combo class, but it seems like everywhere I go I am running a class final late in the afternoon with my "one off" rides. The combo class is like a little bit of class racing that I never got a chance to get when they ran off records decades ago. |
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I had to wait 30 years before I could afford to move into class racing from bracket racing. |
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Ran the ECIRS series and over the years made changes. Documented them. Upgraded here and there. Realized I could run under the G/PS index. Ran S/SS Tri State events doing fairly well. Drove the car to all the races putting on the racing wheels and went racing. But kept upgrading and now towing to the races. The expense to go faster does not stop. Wish NHRA would add Pure Stock. Feel More racers would build and run them. Just so many advantages such as reliability! D |
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Billy, I couldn't agree with you more about the "Dime Rocket" ideal....heck I just found out today from Vic Hobbs that Bill O'Connor won a Stock/Super Stock Combo race...not with a fire breathing big block, or a V-10, or even a wheel standing small block, but his 4bangered fwd Dodge Omni, this past Saturday in Fontana! How much more of a "Dime Rocket" winner can you get than his car? As another racer said here on this thread, you can thank the better economy, and especially the lower gas prices too....heck when this season started, I figured that the same number of people who raced D7 last year would be racing this year, thus I'd have less D7 people to race against, and it would be a little easier to have a good points finish for the first time since 2008....WRONG!!!! Only two divisionals so far and there's 110 racers competing in my division for me to have to deal with, and there may be more after Sonoma this weekend. Competition is good, and the turnouts are increasing and that's good for the life of our categories and classes! I can't wait for my next race in two months in Utah!!!! |
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Bill also has won divisional races....I recall Bakersfield a few years ago.
He always seem to have a great light against me and his car is murder to drive the stripe against. AS far as expensive.....I see in Classified one of the winningest stocker out here on the West Coast ever for a asking price of $15,000. which is not much more than the average bracket car. |
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Some of the greatest thrills I had was racing in stock and Super Stock in the individual classes. Win or lose, the adrenalin flowed freely! There were usually 7-12 cars and you had to win to run the eliminator. I still stay away from most national meets that don't have class runoffs. Thanks Michael for not making another all bracket race. Bob Michael
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Going to have to hit the "like" button on that one, Bob.
I haven't really commented on this thread because I'm still not sure what it was supposed to be about. I'm quite sure it has nothing to do with running in a dial in eliminator, but I can see why some may have thought that. If it's supposed to be about why the participation in a lot of the individual class run offs seems to be dwindling away, I do have some thoughts on that. Now, if it was supposed to be a back door way of promoting a Mod/ Spec engine class within SS Eliminator, I've already commented on why I don't think it would work on any large scale. That being said, if it was a RWD platform, small block only, clutch type 4 or 5 speed deal only , I'd certainly watch Dick Butler participate in it. |
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It is the system as it started without adequate change to preserve the Class Winner as the hard worker, not the newest, most favored, most financially able to compete or the most unheard of combination. This brings new entrants but affects the outcomes. Now for those who are pleased with the issues today no reason to change.. Possible change for situation: Create at least one entry level car to run a class. Cheap can help. To re create a level field Sportsman class I recommend a starter class be lb/cubic inch where talent and hard work can continue to give a chance to win a "Trophy" with no chance of a Rule Book Rocket making your project extinct next season. Keep It very limited on specs and it can be teched easier and cheaper too.( Sealed motors work elsewhere but ) It can run eliminator at points meets or Nationals but it might catch on big as fun Class at these events.. |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Dick, it appears you've answered your own questions in your posts. Take 2 racers, both work hard on their stuff one makes 55,000 a year has kids, mortgage ect. one makes 150,000 a year , has kids, mortgage ect. Now they're equally intelligent , motivated, and willing to work on their race cars to make them competitive. Which one's going to be the quicker car? As with most anything competitive the money always wins! Now racer number 1 may be one of the best drag racers ever, however he has no chance of winning class, does he just quit? It sounds to me at least that you want to develope a class that YOU want the YOU can be on top. How does that help "class racing"?
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
I don't think class racing died with the old folks, I think it is less popular today not so much the initial cost, but the hard, almost impossible task of HPing so many different combos. And for the hood scoop cars, what hurts is the constant updates on cylinder heads etc. and don't give me the crap about time marches on. For example, in SS/ CS for instance, I understand why they updated from the 461X head to the phase 2 bow tie because of availability, but why, after all that money invested, and tons of heads available, now you had to spend another $10,000 to get the vortex bow tie. Not counting intakes, pistons, Cam's, etc. just an example is all I'm stating. Love the cars in Comp, SS, and Stk.
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Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Why is this still being discussed?????
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I am not racing but watching how the racing class portion of Stk and SS has issues. And Costs continue to be discussed. Why not limit the changes back to a basic car all can afford. Then the guy who works hardest and drives the smartest at least has a chance of winning. |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
Dick,
I fully understand what you're getting at but wasn't that pretty much the initial idea of Super Modified? I have never seen crate motors work in oval track racing as I ran the Parts Pro Truck Series for almost 5 years about the same JC Beattie was running. They introduced crate motors and it all went to hell in a hand bag. What keeps someone with money from buying 10 motors, dynoing them all and selling off all but the best 3 engines. The spec deal will work somewhat but in the end the money will rule. Just look at cylinder heads in Stock now. One thing for certain, we can't turn the clock back, the technology has gotten us in this vicious circle and is just part of it. After my car was stolen I haven't raced the last 2 years and am currently working on returning. IT won't be a top qualifier but should still be fun. My driving will probably be the biggest thing that will keep me from winning much. And as far as the bracket racing/class deal. That is one of things I like best about Stock and Super Stock. You can still bracket race em if you like and that makes it all look like a better choice to me. Just look at Beard and his program. |
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[QUOTE=Rick Leininger Jr.;477453]Dick, I think you missed this?[/QUOTE0
Nope, SS/LA 350 chevelle, then 283 chevy II and the 400 Pontiacs dominated till they left the class( one Pontiac guy waved good bye to George Cureton in class) My skills were developing as I learned from these cars. Hopefully with the help of my engine builder Ralph Truppi for more than 20 plus years I learned a lot. We discussed our cars and technology Daily long distance. It paid off. My work at the track meshed well with his engines and we were very successful in class and occasionally in eliminator too. |
Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
amazing how our memories work, Ponder this, in 1972 would you be complaining your 15 year old 1957 chevy 327 fuel injected is not competitive with a 3 year old 1969 z 28. What do you think? Sorry, do not know what 2 cars back then were in the same class, just a guess. Maybe Larry Hill can give us a comparison because he was probably #1 qualifier at Indy that year
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[quote=Dick Butler;477463]
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Everybody has their own situation, some bracket race until they can afford a class car, then they keep on bracket racing it (a bit under the index) until they make it quick enough to run heads up. That takes time, effort and MONEY. The guy that doesn't have the money to be the big dog will change classes or whatever to avoid an instant loss. Others, same situation but can afford to try and be one of the big dogs. Might work, might not but they try. Then you have the guys with the money, they can be the big dog, they just fork over more $$ when they lose until, HEY! they're the big dog now. So you know what, lots of people are saying they are bracket racing their stocker because that's what suits them for whatever their reasons are. Due to their situations, they will never agree to a heads up only style of racing. They don't believe class racing is dying because they're waiting in line for hours to get through the gate. Your line "Then the guy who works hardest and drives the smartest " that is still true, YOU just have to realise that the guy working the hardest on his combo might not be the fastest in his class. When I look at the 180* headers billy made with his own two hands for an oddball combo and compare that to the $$$$ kooks headers that somebody bought for their #1 qualifying car...I know who's "working the hardest" and it ain't the "bigdog". EDIT: and if you want to limit the car choices so everybody has the same combo so "Then the guy who works hardest and drives the smartest" I hate to tell you but not everybody wants a cookie cutter car. And certainly nobody wants to see a few classes of all the same car racing. |
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