Re: SS Modified
 

I ran SS/CS from 1991 till 1999. I chose this class as a modified class without having to have the newest cyl. head every couple years. This is still a great class and can be run on a budget IF you are happy with .30-.40 under. I ran a best of 9.77 back then in my dinosaur 67 camaro. Phase 1 bowties, cast intake, chevy crank, no $1800 rings, no vacuum pump, 1.6 jesel, stock dia. lifters,stock cam tunnel, powerglide trans.
With Pattersons expertise my 320" motor made 630hp on their dyno.
I recently sold those heads cheap.
I still have 2 more sets and I am sure there are more out there. Even with 30 year old modified iron heads you can make enough power to run under todays index.
If you can avoid any heads up runs with the few good high dollar cars out there you can have a modified car in the show and have as good a shot at winning as anyone.

Re: SS Modified
 

As far as that iron head LS combo I think that was only available in a truck.
Not sure if that matters today.

Re: SS Modified
 

None of the allowed heads, Chevy Vortec Bowtie, Ford N-351, Mopar W-5 and the aftermarket approved heads were available in a production engine. The LS cast iron head is a production head. The LS cast iron production block is the same GM Performance offers for racing for engines making 1000+ HP.

Re: SS Modified
 

Randy, what was the cost of your suggested Modified Motors In the econo Mod class we had discussed? What did they run at what weight for comparison with the ones these guys are discussing? Yours were only one 4 barrel too weren't they?

Maybe these guys could see a way to join our discussion of a more basic motor MOD class.

Re: SS Modified
 

Will answer Dick's question in a minute, but Jim Hawkin's used parts used to end up at our local track, and I had to compete against them in a heads up deal. Ha! Now, Jim is right that you can put a .2 to .3 under car together relatively cheap, but we did a Brodix spec motor at 289 c. i. That did 592 hp at 9,200 for under $10,000 that we ran 6.29 at 109.67 in the 1/8th versus a $28,000 dollar SS/CS 291 motor that dynoed at 638 and ran 6.16 111.27 in the eighth. But I used a Chevy block with the spec engine, used Pistons, Chevy destroked crank, groden rods, Chevy cam, Chevy lifters, used pan, cast hurricane intake, but my point is, the choke area is the heads. A short block is only worth so much power no matter how much you spend on it.

Re: SS Modified
 

Also, both engines were at 10.5 lbs. per cube.

Re: SS Modified
 

Also, just to be fair, the 291 was in 3,300 ft. Air when it ran that, and the 289 was in 800 ft. Air. The 291 did Run 6.09 at 116.86 at Eddyville in 200 ft. Air, but it was just a test and tune night, and I hate to count those.

Re: SS Modified
 

If you guys don't mind my input I put together a 275" 18* sbc with hand me down Comp parts, 660 carbs w/850 base plates and a cam that I've had for over 30 years.
Including the used Hogan manifold and dyno I spent less than 10k.
625 hp thanks to Jeff Lawrence and he wanted to update the cam which he said would add 25hp.

Re: SS Modified
 

Adding even more to my point earlier, Jim Hawkins won the Division 5 championship with his SS/CS combo back when he ran it! I'm sure he did his best to avoid running Ricky Ray back then as he had the other CS car in D5, and the car without the latest and greatest still stood tall at the end of the day.

I guess I'm not understanding why Dick is so insistent on creating a new class? There are 110 classes right now in Super Stock eliminator. If you can't find one of those that you are interested in competing in - maybe NHRA isn't what you want to do? I know there is the Chicago Outlaw Super Stock group, and the Ozark Mountain Super Shifters groups that have a lot of Super Stock type cars that are bad to the bone! You've been at the top of the heap of Super Stock before Dick, you know it's never going to be cheap or without its pains. Oddly enough you're one of the most professionally successful guys I knew as a kid, so if you're uncomfortable with the costs - how do you think the rest of us that are still competing feel?! It will likely never change because nobody competing in the class really wants it to change - we've entered it knowing full and well what it takes to do it right.

Sadly it doesn't matter what you build, when you go to sell it - they are all worth peanuts in comparison. We sold our SS/CS motor complete carb to pan with the converter and rear end gears for under $25k. That motor has the best of everything in it and over $35k in parts alone.

Mike

Re: SS Modified
 

Mike, I have two issues I wish we could handle.
1) as you say the cost of the motor.- What if everyone HAD to use a $10,000 motor.
answer- a cheaper class where people could escape the $30,000 motors and still be even in opportunity to win class.
2) place where if it became popular enough it might show up heads up at local racing, divisional or even National events for the theory of budget limited people. The opposite of SS/AH, but same fun for the racers...
I had thought as Randy that running the eliminator is still possible in the Mod classes with a basic spare parts motor for fun but "Heads Up Class" racing seems to be so Factoring limited it is truly purchased by the latest car buyer...finding the "rocket". Costly yearly issues.....
Maybe a new class isn't needed. Maybe a head change in rules for Spec head would not upset some guys running one of the mod classes at this point. It could solve some problems of parts breakage or scarcity.

Re: SS Modified
 

Since this thread is about SS/CS (or C/SM for older folks) my friend Pat Hennebery still races his 1968 Camaro old C/SM car in N.E.T.O. nostalgia racing circuit. Right now with a stock block and heads 327 , just dressed up for the old C/SM car with the intake, Holley 750, big tube headers, crank trigger, ect and a jerico 4 speed has gone 11.30's

Still has the 70's paint and decals, even a Lakewood roll bar! Back "in the day" he ran a 318 SBC with iron Modified heads, said he ran best of 10.59 He would go to Indy and there would be 25 cars entered in C/SM alone.

He moved on to Competion Eliminator in the 80's , still has his C/EA Berretta plus a brand new Street Roadster to run either B or C/SR With that he has a few older Comp motors, Buick Dart head stuff.

He was always looking for a Heads up type class, and ran in a IHRA class called Factory Modified, a "Junior Prostock" type class. They tried to get NHRA to carry it.

I know if a heads up type of SS/CS class was around he would drop one of those motors in his Camaro, he even has headers for a Camaro with Buick/Dart heads.

OK, maybe a heads up C/SM with only original rear wheel drive cars allowed? Keep the cost down?
Here r some video of the Camaro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb9TOYrbQyQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQCr3NIU0sY

Will Lamprecht I/SA 65 Impala in progress

Re: SS Modified
 

While it sounds interesting on paper, you're talking about something that will never happen. You need a "spec head/motor" for GM/Ford/Mopar. And even if there were a $10k limit placed on this motor, how would that be enforced/policed?

Stock eliminator has aluminum headed big block combinations that CFE is welding, porting, and re-blasting to appear perfectly stock for a rough price of $10k. NHRA can't definitively tell the difference between these heads and a true stock casting - how would they tell if a spec head is still untouched? There is absolutely no such thing as a cost effective Heads Up class. There will always be competitors who push the envelope and spend more time and money to win.

Beyond the motor you still have to invest $6k in a Pro-Trans, $3k Dewco/Indy Gear Center section, $4k+ RacePak, and the list goes on and on... Budget will never have a place in going fast in heads up drag racing if you want to win.

All this talk about low cost ways for people to win and have the same thing that others who are working hard and spending more for - this thread sounds like it's a political argument... "Everyone should be able to win class and heads up races no matter their time and money investment." - Obama... lol

Mike

Re: SS Modified
 

Outstanding post!

Re: SS Modified
 

I see a big difference from "working hard" to "spending money" in my personal approch in Drag Racing. I don't know anything about 10K stocker heads but have spent the last 2 plus years building my own car. I could not afford to A. buy a complete car and B. pay somebody to build, but I am talking about a Stocker though. Only way I can race is "work hard" doing and learning my own thing. One set of real stock heads on my 396/325, just flowed them with different valves. That Impala ran 7-8 tenths under then, that same motor is going in my 65 Impala now would be a 5 tenths under? I'll be happy to get the car down the track for now, and have some fun.

Mike you are right about the $ taking out the eliminator eventually, look at Pro Stock. The thread on 70-80's Pro Stock shows tons of different cars, today only handful of teams and who knows how long Pro Stock will be around.

Just enjoying this bench racing.

Re: SS Modified
 

impstocker, actually this thread wasn't started as a debate about SS/CS but quickly turned into one. Mike Mans makes many good points on that subject, as pertaining to CS. However the OP was asking what made a modified car a modified car, which several good answers were given. Then moved to questions about old comp engines, which was met with differing opinions. My opinion, if the gentleman has the engine and would like to dip his toes in the Super Stock pool build it, race it and have fun. If he finds that this is the type racing he enjoys he has many options to upgrade. Of course Dick is still pushing his "econo modified" agenda, which has been beaten to death.

Re: SS Modified
 

buzzinhalf dozen,
I agree and if I hijacked the original intent of the thread I do apologize. What that fella wants to do with that Comp motor is cool and it is about having fun. I only started to read this thread because this was the same thing my friend with his old 68 C/SM Camaro was thinking about, and he would still run the stick shift because it's more fun too!

Will Lamprecht

Re: SS Modified
 

Nope, not still pushing the agenda just commenting on the thread of Mod.
It will not change until costs really are an issue with majority of racers or entries drop due to concerns reaching a greater number about factoring on HP.
Still a nice place to see friends, share stories and raise kids while we can afford it.

Re: SS Modified
 

Working hard definitely pays dividends. But, money will always be a factor. That's the plain truth.

My SS/BS motor cost almost $27K with a used block, crank, heads, rockers, belt drive, distributer and carb. The mook who built the motor--a very well know engine builder from down south--broke a lifter on the dyno and never bothered to tear the motor down to see/repair the damage to other components. I had to pay over $2K for a new set of Jesel lifters, and another $300 to regrind the camshaft. When he put it back on the dyno, it was at least 80 hp short of where it should have been and he was full of excuses.

Got it home, put it on a stand and eventually took it apart to find grooved cylinder walls, and two ruined pistons. The $2500 pistons and rings are now scrap. Besides, four of them were hitting the chamber, all of them had ridiculously deep and long flame grooves on the dome and valve reliefs too deep killing compression.

The engine is now being repaired by the guy I should have brought it to in the first place. Still, I'm going to have to spend at least five grand to get it fixed and dyno'd again. Now we're into the $30K range, and I'm hoping (praying) to be .60-.70 under.

Also, remember one thing. The index will change at some point. SS/BS used to be 10.0. Now it's 9.65. So, money will have to be spent to get back under again when it happens.

In the end, nobody should be deterred from building a budget engine to run in any class. With hard work and good parts selection, the car should run under the index and you can chip away at going faster over time.

Re: SS Modified
 

Cant resist a response to the "political comment"
Mike, consider the reality of eliminator racing versus class heads up racing.
Class (based on lb/hp) means if you can afford to change cars and build new repeatedly to keep a bogus factor car you can usually win.
Class (based on lb/cubic inchs) means you all have the same right to spend unlimited to win with the SAME stuff, not bogus factors.

The more you limit the rules the cars still are all the same specs but cheaper to own, build and race.( no external pumps, one carb, observation hole for crank, no sheet metal manifold, P and G, all use same spec trans. limited tire size if needed. )

Eliminator is set to make it possible for anyone to win. You only race a guy based on what he says he can run, not on what he can run. I don't agree with records either but based on qualifying might be worth a try.

I'm proposing a way to open up an affordable basic class car for the future that could attract new people and even better cut the costs to current racers next time the $35 motor breaks.

Side Comment, Randy Wilson ran these cheaper Mod cars at a track and Brodix teched the Questionable heads if needed to assure no mods.

Re: SS Modified
 

It has been beat to death, but was never tried. For instance, they do make a spec head for Mopar, Chevy, and Ford. They flow virtually the same. They use them in lots of circle track classes. The heads have spec cast in them on the top, and bottom of both ports. My point ain't to get an Obama class, just an option of not having to change heads every two years. We did it locally for several years, and I hear they are going to open again next year. We had great crowds, and the last two shootouts were won by 6 thousandths, and 2 10 thousandths of a second. It definitely doesn't take hard work out of the equation, it makes you pay special attention to the cam, carb, and gearing. Plus, if you hurt a head, $500 and you have a new bare head. Not taking anything away from folks like the Manns, or Bogner, or anyone else. Just saying it ain't like we were trying to reinvent the wheel. Also, for a fee of $50 Brodix will let you ship it to them and they can tell real quick if someone messed with it. Just a thought. Feel free to bash away. I'm 60. I don't care.

Re: SS Modified
 

Overall, I understand your thoughts and directions - and I don't disagree that there could be a class/category like this somewhere. Do I think it's a realistic idea for current day NHRA Super Stock? Not likely. But I think it is really a neat idea for a smaller local Super Stock organization to put on a class like this in a regional area. Personally - I really enjoy heads up racing and would love to participate in more of it. The spec head deal would be neat, but if there were ever large payout opportunities - that's when people are absolutely going to push the limits and invest large amounts to make more power and then cover it back up. AKA: Stock Eliminator, unfortunately. At the root of Stock, they are all "Spec motors." I bet a "stock" 1969 Camaro never went 9.90's :) We're all innovators and always looking for the next loop-hole to gain an advantage - that's why we run Stock and Super Stock instead of S/Street/Gas/Comp.

I never meant to offend anyone or get this thread off-topic, of course. The original starter was asking the basic question of what makes a modified car. Hope I didn't derail the intent too far.

Mike

Re: SS Modified
 

Mike I agree I never meant to offend or capture topic. Just thoughts....
Dick

Re: SS Modified
 

It takes a lot to offend me, and nothing anyone has posted has bothered me In the slightest. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and I admire what the Manns have accomplished, and others in all the different classes. I just think with 110 classes, there is probably twice that many head combos, and Houdini couldn't catch all the stuff that many guys have dreamed up. That being said, I think 3 sets of heads designed by one company would be easier to police then all those other combos. Especially when there services are available to the buyer, or sanctioning body. I know at Knoxville, Dave Rodder was there from Brodix for the Nationals, and one competitor he was checking out, he said, and I quote, "Ray Charles could see those heads are modified!" End quote. Factory support ain't a bad thing. Also, lots of areas in this class to cut cost in my theories, and easily policed, but that's for another day.

Re: SS Modified
 

Mike, your post on this thread are the best I've read in a long time, love the Obama comment, LMAO, right on!

Re: SS Modified
 

Also, a class that does not even exist, that effects no class that does exist, should bother absolutely no one. I know when they implemented Pro Mod, It effected me not at all, and I gave it zero thought other then I like it.

Re: SS Modified
 

x2

Re: SS Modified
 

"Everyone should be able to win at heads up racing regardless how much time and money they spend" Obama.
I think that's is how you stated it. Funny comment and but ...
You have missed the fact that in eliminator when you take out your shoe polish to put your dial in on the window you are getting your Obama handicap help.
You are no longer truly racing someone, you are playing the clock with shoe polish dial in as an equalizer. It was intended to allow various classes to compete together since the variations in cars and classes became massive by expansion of number of classes.
The other facts about winning class regardless how much you work or spend is incorrect because you imply a $10,000 car is proposed to run in a class with the guys who have invested $150,000 in a factory car.
No that wasn't intended in any of my posts. An economy class of cars to attract more new racers or as a place for everyone to race who honestly cannot invest $35,000 in a motor or high buck trans .
Also might reread the posts on Dime Rockets where guys brag about being #1 Qualifier with a ________( name the unfactored rule book oversight). Pick up, Turbo van, etc.
Lots of fun in this topic but hoping to keep the thoughts clearly separated for what was proposed versus how people interpret the ideas.

Re: SS Modified
 

Facts about savings for a class of Econo Mod with proposed rules.
(also fastest growing class in round track with these rules)
Spec unmod Al Brodix heads and cast manifold savings-----------$15,000

Clutch rule, no computer, no pan evac system savings-------------$7,000

Stock Diameter cam and lifter rule savings-------------------------------$1000

9" Deck block rule, No titanium drive line parts-savings -------------??????

The rules used can be re posted Stick car rules save $23-25,000.
Tech with scope in pan or heads.

Just wanted to add these amounts to suggest the value of changing one Mod class rule set or adding to save costs.

Re: SS Modified
 

So Dick, since you are limiting the class to a 9" deck, why not call it Chevy/GM Econo Mod class?
A Mopar small block has a 9.6" deck height and Ford has 3 deck heights: 8.2, 9.2 and 9.5.
By the way, Titanium is already prohibited in the Modified classes.
So, you have to pull the timing cover to check the cam diameter?

Like I someone said earlier, local tracks can run such type of class, at national event level, it will not happen. It would require a teardown at every event.

Re: SS Modified
 

As far as I know, titanium lug nuts, yokes, and wheel studs are legal in modified. Correct me if I'm wrong. And the tear down is very simple in my opinion. Any 4150 carb. (No tear down) any stroke, (no tear down) cast intake with no external miss, (no tear down) any combustion chamber mod, (no tear down) angle mill all you want, (no tear down) intake and exhaust ports can't be altered,(no tear down, just a bore scope) if questionable, tear down. Min 10.5" clutch, no counter weights, one disc, no tear down.

Re: SS Modified
 

A spec motor class will never happen in NHRA. You have a better chance of turning Obuma into a Republican first........

Re: SS Modified
 

Gonna have to splain to me how you save $7000 in the clutch rule by not allowing data loggers or pan evac systems. Pan evac= less than $100 entry level datalogger can be had for $600 since everyone already owns a laptop that's a wash on cost. I'm aware of at least one "econo" circle track series in my area, believe me when you limit one thing many dollars get spent on something else to enhance performance. Bottom line any "limited" class series will quickly spiral out of control merely because there WILL be someone that is willing to spend what ever it takes to be the fastest. It's been proven over and over. Oh and since the stick cars are limited...I'll assume there will be a "spec" torque converter and everyone runs a bone stock power glide right?

Re: SS Modified
 

Every class in SS is a spec class. Just different specs. You're not allowed a dry sump in SS, but other classes you are. It ain't rocket science. They could curb the spending but choose not to. A true Comp type titanium clutch assembly is around $7,000 more or less. Depending on all the bells, and whistles. No need for it if you limit it to one single disc clutch, and a minimum diameter. No need for the titanium bell housing. Pan evac would be legal. Vac pumps, not. I'm saying the high end pump setups are rather expensive. Don't worry. None of this will ever happen, but I go back to my original point. Why would anyone care, especially when it involves no one else's class? Mind boggling!

Re: SS Modified
 

I guess I will end my comments on this post with a couple of questions.
Why do people complain about the high cost of a motor and not want to evaluate a way to curb the costs?
Why do people complain about the soft factors of this motor or that factory car and not want to consider the lb. / cubic inch methods more?
Why do people express concerns about NO crowd in the stands for points meets when S and SS are the major competitors and not admit the dial in program might be the issue?
Why do racers who competed in TOP/STK and TOP/SS explain it was the most fun they had in years racing heads up instead of dial in?
Why do racers comment on the fact the majority of the current racers are at retirement age and attracting new blood seems difficult but not want to help create an entry level full size car or class to attract more people?
Even more interesting is why people want to comment negatively when it would not affect the car they currently run but might offer a cheaper alternative later?
The basic question many have is why does Dick Butler who does not currently race care?
Friends Drag Racing is a wonderful sport and I always want to offer thoughts which might bring it back to where it has been in popularity and can return for the future at the Sportsman racer level.
Thank you.....for participating in the thinking and discussion.

Re: SS Modified
 

Actually you can run a dry sump in SS of course it's not allowed in most but the X cars can. And again are any of the SS guys running the 7000 dollar clutches now? None that I know of, don;t think titanium cans are allowed now in SS, vac pumps are not allowed now in conventional SS....so I'm still not seeing the savings. And for Dicks response...I've never complained about the cost of a motor, you build what you can afford...if the fast guys are spending 35-50K on an engine then you either pay up, work the ladder, or change classes. There will always be someone who thinks "His index is too soft" "costs are out of control" "engines are too expensive" "this guy can out spend me" on and on it goes. Look around...some folks are pulling in with 500,000-600,000 dollar RIGS! Do you honestly think they can't pay their way into being fast? However does that mean that they WILL win...last I checked you can pull in with a pickup and open trailer and wear them out.

Re: SS Modified
 

Again, it effects no one. I just don't see why the ire. It would effect no ones combo.

Re: SS Modified
 

A spec class works in round track because they all want to race to the finish line...they can't put shoe polish on the window.

It also works in round track because some guys have more money than others and it is a good way to level the playing field.

It ain't going to happen in NHRA for reasons others have stated.

I like the idea, but I also am the one that wishes the whole dam program (Stock,SS and Comp) was run from national records

Re: SS Modified
 

I take that as one vote for the idea, not replacing classes but as a stand alone.( as it was proposed) Not sure why it wont work though.

Re: SS Modified
 

Far too simple and easy to understand. Never happen. It needs to be way more complicated to have anyone take a close look.

Re: SS Modified
 

Why do you guys continue to turn every thread on here to a thread about your stupid spec motor class? Go back to your original thread or exchange phone numbers because you two are apparently the only ones that believe its a great idea!