Re: Pontiacs
 

"...Pontiac V8 a corporate motor?..."

Don't think I've ever read the current GT rules. If I have I don't remember all of 'em.

So, does it say specifically that only "corporate" motors can be used in GT ? :confused:

If so, in order to be considered "corporate", did the engine have to be available in every GM division, which I assume would include Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Buick, & Cadillac ???
:confused:

If so, I suppose that would eliminate quite a few GM engines. Probably would ban all BBC engines, from non-Chevy car bodies. ???

OR, do the GT rules allow any GM engine in any GM body ??? :confused: I don't know. I'm just askin.

As for questionable combos, I reckin it's pretty much left up to the tech guys at any particular race. Most are obviously not near as picky as they once were.

I can think of a popular car that has no front turn signal lamps. I have been scolded online for even mentioning that.

Another popular Bird, running as a '73, IIRC, actually has '71 Firebird fenders on it. But it has been running for years like that, & has passed tech.

I think several of the early '70's Birds have got by with just changing grills, when claiming different year models. I personally don't think those small changes should make any difference. BUT, I can remember back when Wesley would bounce a car for VERY minor infractions. Obviously, the rules are a lot more lax, nowadays, at least for most tech guys.

Some guys want the rules strictly enforced. Others want 'em lax, so more cars can run in the Stock & SS classes, to help keep 'em alive.

Opinions differ. :)

The Bird below has a Formy hood, with TA fenders, in the 1st pic. Then in the 2nd pic, it has T/A hood & fenders, but no wheel flairs. It passed tech, in both conditions. So, those items apparently don't matter nowadays. I don't know, Just a casual observation. IMO, those items would not affect performance in a noticeable way. But, cars have been bounced for less, in days gone by.

Re: Pontiacs
 

What most people think of as corporate motors is not the NHRA definition. The NHRA view is that any motor allowed as long as it is from the same manufacturer. So you could use a Gen 3 Hemi motor in your Plymouth or any GM motor in any allowable GM car body.

The fender vents on a T/A help relieve the warm air buildup under the hood. Stand next to mine on a hot night and you will feel the heat pour out while the car idles. With the car in motion, I am pretty sure it will help move the air out from under the hood. That is why Pontiac called them air extractors. All the items Pontiac hung on the T/A had a purpose. The shaker took in cold outside air, the wheel flares smoothed the air around the wheel openings, and the rear spoiler put over 100 lbs of downforce at 55 mph.

Casey now drives Lynn's black 3rd gen T/A.

Stacy sold his 3rd gen bird to build his Grand Am. Tibor Kadar bought it and won a Div.7 with the car. Tibor later sold the car to me so he could build the 77 Firebird stocker that Tommy Pettigrew now drives. I ended up going through and updating the car including replacing the 400 6x motor with a SD455 from Don Kennedy. I heard that Tommy replaced his Pontiac 350 with a Chevy 350.

Re: Pontiacs
 

" What most people think of as corporate motors is not the NHRA definition. The NHRA view is that any motor allowed as long as it is from the same manufacturer. So you could use...any GM motor in any allowable GM car body..."

This is the way I've always thought it was.

"...The fender vents on a T/A help relieve the warm air buildup under the hood. Stand next to mine on a hot night and you will feel the heat pour out while the car idles. With the car in motion, I am pretty sure it will help move the air out from under the hood. That is why Pontiac called them air extractors. All the items Pontiac hung on the T/A had a purpose..."

Yeah, that all makes sense. So, if that is correct, the T/A fenders should make at least a slight improvement in ET, over the non vented fenders. So, it makes sense to run 'em if NHRA will allow it. I suppose that's what you'd call a "no-brainer". Run the quickest combo you can, that will pass tech.

"...I heard that Tommy replaced his Pontiac 350 with a Chevy 350..."

Yeah, I saw that. :(

"... I ended up going through and updating the car including replacing the 400 6x motor with a SD455 from Don Kennedy..."

So, have you raced it yet ? Still racing it ? Results? What division are(or were) you in. Sorry for all the questions ! But I am just not familiar with your name.

Thanks for sharing all this info.

Since starting the Pontiac Stock & SS threads, I've learned the name of a lot of Pontiac racers I'd never heard of. So, I'd like to know your history of racing Pontiac powered cars.

Note: If you'd prefer NOT to put all your info on this thread, please feel free to converse with me by Email: donhurst455@gmail.com

Thanks ! :)

Re: Pontiacs
 

Would you happen to know if they help reduce aerodynamic drag on the car at speed?

Stan

Re: Pontiacs
 

No matter what a class racer's brand preference is, they usually look for the best combo, in order to be competitive.

So, when lookin at possible competitive Pontiac combo's, I look at those that have been successful in the past, as well as those that are currently active & competitive.

Note: A sudden big hp hit from NHRA can render a combo less, or even non-competitive, instantly. So, the competitive possibilities of these combos can change QUICKLY.

All the round port engines have been competitive at some point. But, due to the scarcity of the heads & their high price, I won't list any combo that requires iron round port heads. Billy & others have also proven that the 301 can be competitive, with & without a turbo. But, those parts are also getting hard to find. So, I won't include any 301 combo. The '74 GTO was a good Stock combo for many years. But the Stock hp factor is too high now, for it's low compression 350 engine.

(1) Right now, my #1 choice would be a '77 base 400 engine, in any body, other than a Bird. Why ? The 6x-8 heads are some of the most common & cheapest Pontiac heads. Birds with this engine have taken too many hits.There have been LOTS of competitive cars running this combo.

(2) The '74 400. It is said by some long time Pontiac racers to be the most competitive Pontiac Stocker engine. It has been a proven Stocker engine, for many years.

(3) These next 2 engines are a toss-up, to me. I'll start with the 455, just because it's bigger. It's the '73-'74 D-port 455. Current hp factor is only 306, in Stock Birds only. 310hp in SS. The large chamber 4X heads are not in high demand, therefore should be reasonably priced. The long stroke should provide plenty of torque, requiring less rpm, to run a decent time. There are '73 Birds that have done well with this combo, in recent years.

The '72 D-port 455 is also 306hp, in a Stock Bird & 310hp in SS.

(4) In Stock, the '68 & '69 GTO 350hp 400 has an NHRA hp factor of 325. That's better than basically the same engine in a '68 & '69 Bird. For SS, the '69 has only a 306hp factor. That should make it a good choice, for anybody wanting to run a '69 GTO in SS. Art Peterson has the only '69 SS GTO I'm aware of.

(5) '68 Bird 400 330hp. This has been a good competitive combo for a long time. Currently rated at 333hp for Stock & 315hp for SS. Not as good as the '69 GTO. But, I suppose the Bird has less wind drag.

(5) '67 Bird 400 325hp. Randi Lyn Shipp & Bryan Phillips have proven this combo, for many years now.

(6) '77 350. This is especially good in a SS Bird, @ 246hp. In Stock, it's 254hp in a Bird & 250hp in everything else.

(7) For SS GT only, the 428 has proven itself to be very competitive, especially with the legal alum heads. So, for Pontiac powered SS GT racers, it might be hard to beat.

Some may rate these in a different order, for different reasons. There have probably been competitive cars using all these combos.

Another engine I've mentioned is the '68 350HO. Adam Strang ran 10.80's with one, in his Bird. But, I'm guessing that the #18 heads may not be real easy to find.

Re: Pontiacs
 

For the not-forseeable-future, this is the best hard core Pontiac that's both competitive and affordable. That is until NHRA allows Pontiac Racers into the 21ST Century and gives them an approved replacement aluminum head.
Another thing that you need to remember when you're talking about most of these combos is the price of a nice body. Have you priced any nice 70/early 80 F,X or A/G bodys lately?

Re: Pontiacs
 

"...the price of a nice body. Have you priced any nice...bodys lately?..."

Yeah, that will definitely be a factor in deciding what combo to use.

That's the problem with running a '69 GTO. Any clean '64-'72 GTO body is going to be really high.

As for running a '77 combo. I don't know what non-Bird body would be the the cheapest, & easiest to find. I'm guessing maybe a GP. Most everything except GP's & Birds have probably long since been crushed, because of a lack of interest.

Just for kicks, I'm gonna Google & see what I can find that looks decent enuff to possibly build a Stocker with. Will edit & add to this post as I find 'em. Might be interesting.

If I were serious about building a Pontiac Stocker, I'd contact several of the active Pontiac racers, such as Bob Michael. I figure most long time class racers are always looking for decent potential Stocker bodies. So, some of these guys will probably either have something or know where something is that will work.

Checking for '77 GP's 1st. Not gonna list any that $10k cash or less won't buy.

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...#carid=2731211

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...carid=14425317

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...#carid=2841908

https://classics.autotrader.com/clas...prix/101513093

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...carid=14444230

https://classics.autotrader.com/clas...prix/101427485

Wow ! To my surprise, there seem to be more cheap '77 Birds than GP's. Don't know if any of these are decent enuff to use to build a Stocker, or not. But, there are some for less than $5k. A couple of years back, I bought an '80 Bird, with a '77-'78 style nose, for around $3500 shipped. So, hey, a '77 Bird with a 350 Pontiac engine might be one of the cheapest '77's to build. Lotta rust bucket Birds out there, tho.

https://www.autozin.com/1977-pontiac...289-atzlisting

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...#carid=1801688

https://www.autozin.com/1977-pontiac...855-atzlisting

For those who can spend $10k for a body, this '78 might work. I think maybe you can change grills & claim a '77 model.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13386311715...=&toolid=10050

How 'bout a '77 Bonny ?

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...carid=14381941

Don Turk had his GA for sale, for quite a while, for $10,500. That was a bargain. I'da bought it myself, if I'da had the money.

Re: Pontiacs
 

I'd say if you want a SS Pontiac, GT is the way to go. You can find a good buy on a used GM SS roller, then put your Pontiac engine in it.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Pro-Stock...89&from=search

Or, if you can live with a '77 350, you can probably get by with a good Stocker roller. The '77 350 hp factor is only 250, in GT. I think Larry Maxwell is running 9" slicks on his '74 350 powered '68 Bird.

And there are lots of Stockers running low 10's on 9" slicks & legal Stock suspension. Should be lots of 3rd gen Stock & SS rollers for sale out there, especially when the season is over. Should be able to find a Stocker roller for a reasonable price.

If you wanna stick with an older Pontiac body, for GT, you can use an X-body that didn't come with a Pontiac motor. I assume that will include anything form '71 thru at least '79, & would also include a Phoenix.

And, since the engine & body don't have to match, you can use a '79-'81 Bird body. I think more '79 Birds were sold than any other year. So, it makes sense that they will be more plentiful & cheaper. Have also noticed that the '80 & '81 Birds are usually pretty cheap. I personally don't like the '79-'81 nose. But hey, looks ain't everything. And, I know the nose can be replaced with a '77-'78 nose. I'm assuming the tail can also be replaced with the earlier tail, so that one could run it as a '77-'78.

Anyhow, for GT, there are LOTS of body options.

Re: Pontiacs
 

Real Pontiac V8 ( no corporate nonsense) in the S/G final at Indy !!

Re: Pontiacs
 

And so it was !

Thanks for that info ! I most likely would have never even looked at the S/G final.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Just a word about the winner of that race. My wife & I use to run against him, bracket racing at I-20 Dragway, in Tyler TX. They called his dad "Fast Eddie". So we called him "Little Eddie". IIRC, he was just a teenager, back then. I think he was driving a Mopar -- maybe a GTX. ? He was pretty good, even then. We couldn't beat him every time. Anyhow, he went on to make a big name for himself, in drag racing. Hey, that's just a little drag racing trivia for ya'll, from days gone by. :)

By the way, for those who don't know, the '68 Bird that Julie Biermann drove at Indy belongs to Tim. He also ran a real nice '68 GTO, a few years back.

Re: Pontiacs
 

A few things to think about if building a GT car. The first would be the cost of the core car and parts availability.. The cheapest would be the 79-81 Birds. Parts are readily available for 67-81 cars. 82 to 92 cars require more work to find parts and cost more but you can find aluminum hoods and front bumper bars.

Aerodynamics play a part in this. In GT you would be likely running up a against a jellybean car like a Cobalt or a Sunfire like Don Kennedy's during class eliminations. Sorry DK but your Sunfire doesn't have the cool factor that your last Firebird had. I have been told that the 91-92 Birds were the most aerodynamic cars Pontiac ever sold. 2nd gen Birds were GM's first computer designed car with at least thoughts about aero.

Body and engine fitment should be looked at. Pontiac had to redesign its air cleaner housings and intake manifolds because of the low hood line of the 2nd gen cars. Do you avoid a shaker hood or jack the carb on up in there? A Qjet and a Victor intake will fit under the hood of an 82-92 car. If you ever changed spark plugs on a 67-81 Pontiac, you would be amazed at how easy it is on a 82-92. In the 1980's people complained about the increased cost of chassis work on an 82-92 but now consider on a gen 2 car will you have to replace all the sheetmetal from the spring pockets back while moving in the framerails? I wouldn't even think about doing a 4th gen car even though I know some have been done. A more interesting choice would be a modern GTO with traditional Pontiac power. Good aero, was built with a Chevy v8 and donor cars are out there. Did you know if you put a 6x 400 with a manual trans in, the class designation is GT/O.

Re: Pontiacs
 

"... A more interesting choice would be a modern GTO with traditional Pontiac power. Good aero...and donor cars are out there."

Now there's an Idea I hadn't thought of. Anybody seen or heard of a Pontiac powered GT car, using a late model GTO body ? :confused:

I like it ! :)

Re: Pontiacs
 

No, and the wheelbase is quite long, by comparison.

Re: Pontiacs
 

From a quick Google search, looks like it's shorter than the earlier GTO's, but longer than Birds.

So, is that a bad thing ? :confused:

I mean, is it a "shorter is better" deal ?

Took a look at the GM GT cars on the Indy Q-list. Looks like most are Cobalts, Cavaliers, & 3rd gen F-bodies.

There were a couple of late GTO Stockers there. They were both running in the 10's, with 9" slicks. So, with a '77 Pontiac 350 engine, there shouldn't be any problem running in GT, with a Stocker suspension set-up .

Looked up some prices. There are some higher mileage cars for around $10k. This 1st one is the cleanest lookin one I've found that is well under $10k. It's $8,599 (OBO). So, there should be some decent race car candidates out there for $5k or less.

https://classiccars.com/listings/vie...-florida-33317

$7k

https://www.carsforsale.com/vehicle/details/77303073

This one is $6490, with a bad auto trans.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20359441260...=&toolid=10050

How 'bout a '74 ? If you have to start from scratch, starting with one of these or a 2nd gen that came with a Pontiac engine might save a little work & money.

https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...ck.J1ZZ1O14h0Q

https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...r.1is1oEh18i1i

https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...iles.0185HXyNU

https://automotive-classifieds.com/d...premium-trovit

Re: Pontiacs
 

I have considered building a late model GTO with a Pontiac Power Plant for a few years. The issue is the independent rear end. To get one of these to handle alot of power it will take some serious $$$$. Prices I had quote to do the cage and convert to either a 12 bolt or 9" came in around $7500. So you would have around $25K in just the roller.

Re: Pontiacs
 

For you guys who won't race a GT car unless you can run more than a half sec under, you can quit reading this post now.

When I was racing, I never had enuff money to go as fast as I wanted to go, either in Stock or bracket. But, in bracket racing, we learned that you don't have to go quick, to win. You have cut consistently good lights & run consistent ET's.

Most Stock/SS racers really HATE it when you relate their chosen form of racing to bracket racing, in ANY way. BUT, IF your car is legal & can run it's index or a little quicker, then each round that is NOT a same-class heads-up race uses bracket race rules.

Since this IS true, no matter how many Class racers don't like it, any car that is legal & can run it's index can win any race, in which they don't have a heads-up run.

So, with this in mind, IF a guy really wants a GT car, but don't have the funds to build a high dollar car, he could run the '77 Pontiac 350 engine & get by with enuff car to run mid 11's.

That means that he would not need any more traction than a high 10 sec or low 11 sec Stocker would need. To me, that means that a decent low 11 sec Stock roller would be enuff car to run GT, with the 350P engine.

Or, if you had to, or wanted to, build from scratch, you wouldn't need any trick suspension. The basic leaf springs with Cal-Trac bars should work just fine. It appears to be working for Larry Maxwell, down into the 10.80's.

The '77 350, running in the lowest GT class, would require a min weight of 3500 + 170 driver weight. The '79 Bird is listed at just under 3500 with both a 403/auto & a 400/4-speed. So, one of these late 2nd gens should work great, as a GT/QA car, with an 11.75 index.

Brad Koivisto runs a half sec quicker than that easily, & has run some high tens, with his '74 350 GTO Stocker. IIRC, Mike Morgan has run below 10.50, with his '77 350 powered Bird

So, I'm thinkin that a real mild '77 SS 350 should easily run mid 11's, or slightly above, certainly quicker than 11.75.

Ya'll check my calculations. I could easily be wrong. How does this combo look for a low budget GT car ?

For those who don't think it would work, lets hear your recipe for a from-scratch low budget GT car.

Obviously, IF you can find a suitable & cheap roller that needs little, other than an engine & trans, then that might be cheaper, and a LOT less work, than building from scratch.

Re: Pontiacs
 

The only reason I ever thought of doing a late model GTO was a visit to my favorite chassis shop and he was parting one out. He used the eng/trans for a customer car and wanted the rear end for one of his projects. He told me it would be about 20k to convert to SS with 8.50 cage, 4 link, rear end, and fuel cell. I didn't go ahead on the project because I thought I should finish off another project instead. He still has the car but it needs more parts now. Needs front fascia, grille, one fender, rear fascia and rh quarter panel repair if anyone is interested.
Remember that when building a Pontiac motor, it will cost you the same regardless of engine size. My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors. Yes I know the 428 with the Edelbrock heads has an even better hp rating but when did you last see a set of those heads for sale?

Re: Pontiacs
 

"...My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors..."


That's an interesting thought. I have eliminated all round port iron head engines, due to availability & cost. So, that leaves the '73-'74 D-port 455, as probably the best choice. Rated @ 310hp in GT/Auto.

They've been proven good in 10 sec Stockers. But right now, I can't think of a current car running one, in SS. Should easily run the index in a car that can hook it up. Now, as to how much power one can make, in SS form, I don't know.

When comparing them to 400's, I'd say they are a better choice over the '74 & '77-'78 400's, which are rated @ 290hp. Advantage of those '77-'78 400's is the common 6X head. Cores should be cheaper than any of the other good Pontiac heads.

Wilbert Thornton runs a '74 400 SS Bird. Jack Good now owns the '78 400 SS Bird that Ken Shawver once owned. The '74 & '77-'78 400's have been used by several GT racers.

The lowest rating for one of the early high compression 400's looks to be a '69 350hp GTO engine. It shows the same 310hp as the 455 we're talkin about. At the same hp rating, I'll choose the extra torque of the lower compression 455. Will require less rpm.

Art Peterson has the only '69 GTO SS car I know of running the '69 D-port 400 engine. Don't think it's an all-out car. Nice paint, but older technology. Roy, Mike, & Marty McKinney have ran a similar engine in their '68 Bird, for many years.

Re: Pontiacs
 

At most Nation events how far under their Index does one have to run to qualify?


Stan

Re: Pontiacs
 

At MOST Natl. Events? You don't.

Re: Pontiacs
 

THAT isn't the only advantage of the 6X head on the 400.....They have a very (very very) benevolent combustion chamber spec. ;-)

Re: Pontiacs
 

At Indy this year, the bump spot was only .536 under, in Stock, & only .350 under, in SS.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2021#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2021#indextop

It has been said that many of the quicker cars did not go to Indy, for a variety of reasons.

I think there have been some years when you had to be nearly .900 under to make the 128 car field. I'll find one of those & post a link to it.

The Stock bump spot was .893 under, in '16 & '17.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2017#indextop

The '19 SS bump was .783 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

As Billy said, at MOST nat events, all cars that pass tech can run, no matter how slow.

That's how some really slow cars have won big races. They just didn't have a same-class heads-up round.

So, if you're trying to do some class racing on a small budget, you might wanna choose a class that does not usually have very many entrants, especially not any quick ones.

Sometimes you may be able to change classes up or down 1, by adding or removing weight, depending on car & class. This might help avoid a heads-up race with a quicker car, at a particular race.

Re: Pontiacs
 

I was the last one to race Tibor's 77 before he sold it in 2014.
I went 11.77 on the 12.70 L/SA index..
The way I see it, a single plane intake, healthy cam, trans brake ,and ditch the alternator...easy half second under SS car,...if that's your pleasure.

Re: Pontiacs
 

Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me.

I can remember a few Stockers running in SS, still in legal Stock form.Two I can remember right off were Lindy Lindholm, with his Stock Bird, before it was stolen, & Chris Stephenson with his '68 Bird.

IIRC, they weren't very far under the index, but enuff to have won, if they didn't have a heads-up round.

I'm guessing that most any of the mid 10 sec Pontiac Stockers could easily run their SS index, some without any changes at all.

The D/SA, E/SA, & G/SA Stockers would only need to run 1 sec under, to run their SS index.

And, as Mark said, with a few of the legal changes, it shouldn't be too hard to get a good Stocker quick enuff to run SS. And, since there are plenty of Stockers running low 10's & high 9's with only Cal-Trac bars & 9" slicks, that same set-up should be good enuff for a mid to low 10's SS car. Larry Maxwell is running high 10's with what appears to be a Stock type set-up, in his 350 powered '68 GT Bird.

Don't see a need for fancy high dollar suspension & big tires, unless you just have lots of money & wanna go quicker.

Re: Pontiacs
 

1974 455 rated at 310 hp with 102cc combustion chamber.

1975 and 1976 455 rated at 300 hp in SS with 120 cc chamber.
Looks like piston to valve clearance shouldn't be a problem with flat top pistons.

Re: Pontiacs
 

"1974 455 rated at 310 hp with 102cc combustion chamber.

1975 and 1976 455 rated at 300 hp in SS with 120 cc chamber..."


My guess is that the difference in compression would be worth more than the 10hp difference NHRA allows.

Only advantage I can see to the later models is the 800 cfm Q-jet. But, since the 750 Q-jets are running low 9's & even high 8's, on 428 GT cars, I don't figure the extra 50cfm of carb will make up for the loss of power from the compression difference.

But everybody knows I'm no expert. Does anybody here have the knowledge to accurately figure the power potential difference in these 2 engines ?

I've never read of or heard of anybody running the '75-'76 455 in any Stock/SS car. I'm guessing that the huge chamber volume, together with the 310/300hp numbers, is the reason why.

With that big chamber, I'd think NHRA would have to lower the hp numbers considerably, in order to make those engines competitive.

Considering the chamber size reduction NHRA allows for many other Pontiac engines, that 121.51 number is NOT very generous. Most sources list the factory chmaber size to be only about 124cc. So, NHRA is allowing only a VERY small reduction.

IMO, NHRA should either allow smaller chambers or reduce the hp factor. Unless they do one or the other, it's not likely anybody would ever choose to run this engine in either Stock or SS. But, the chances of getting NHRA to to that are probably slim to none.

However, somebody got an aluminum round port head OK'd for use on a 428 Pontiac engine, which came only with D-port heads. So, miracles do happen.

Don't think too many people ran a 428, before that. Since then, there have been lots of GT cars run a 428, including Chevy bodied cars.

If the 87cc Edelbrock alum heads were allowed on a 455, & NHRA gave it a decent hp factor, there would probably be quite a few guys try one. Since the old iron is getting really old now, and since so many aftermarket heads are now legal for Chevy stuff, I don't see why NHRA shouldn't allow alum heads for more Pontiac engines. Hey, there has been nothing "Stock" about many Stock/SS engines, for a long time. So, what difference would it make to allow alum heads on a Pontiac engine ? If they made too much power, for the NHRA hp factor, I'm sure the Chevy guys would raise enuff cane to get NHRA to fix it.

Re: Pontiacs
 

Doesn't NHRA like other engine specs use the Chamber Volume supplied by Pontiac?



Stan

Re: Pontiacs
 

No !

Here's just one good example. It has long been published & is commonly accepted that the '68 400 D-ports had aprox 72cc chambers. Some say that many actually measured a little bigger. NHRA allows 65cc chambers. So, that's roughly a 10% reduction that NHRA allows. Obviously, that will increase compression & power.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Obviously, they didn't do that for the '75-'76 Pontiac 455.

Compression is obviously a factor that must be considered in determining the power potential & thus the competitive possibilities of a Stock/SS engine. The power potential must then be weighed against the current NHRA hp factor of the engine, to decide if it might be a good engine to use, or not.

Re: Pontiacs
 

I believe Lynn McCarty got the Eheads approved for the 428. IMHO this is still a really good combo for a GT car. It would be nice if NHRA would open up the head rules for the 455. I have a SS shortblock ready to go but am undecided about the heads.

Re: Pontiacs
 

The 65 cc camber volume shown on your link came from PMD not anything that NHRA made up.


Stan

Re: Pontiacs
 

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

The info on Class Racer Info shows the max compression to be 12.49. Pontiac never advertised a '68 D-port 400 with near that much compression. Don't take a genius to figure out that the 65cc number is NOT the size of the chamber, from the factory. The deck height is listed at .000. Everybody knows that the Pontiac engines did not have zero deck height. The pistons were in the hole, some say, over .020. BUT, NHRA will ALLOW the racer to have zero deck height.

I have no idea where you got that info. The only '68 up chambers that I've seen advertised near that small are on the 350HO heads. The Class Racer Info site shows the NHRA min chamber size to be 61cc, which will give the engine much more compression than they had from the factory.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, you're saying that PMD purposely gave NHRA bad incorrect info that would increase performance & NHRA never questioned or checked it ??? :confused:

That don't sound reasonable to me. AND, the way many Stock racers are, I figure that by now some racer of a different brand would have complained to NHRA & got the legal numbers changed.

But hey, what do I know. :o

Re: Pontiacs
 

Oldskool, I think that you'll find that a lot of the NHRA specs. are on the "tight" side. Some might just be a little "tighter" than others.

As far as your zero deck Pontiacs, the deck on the 301s is +.018. But I know that they're not real Pontiacs.

Re: Pontiacs
 

lol ! :)

Re: Pontiacs
 

It seem you do not understand how increasing bore and stroke the legal amounts (engines ci's) while holding the other specs constant will increase CR to be higher than the stock engines CR.


The 12.49:1 is nothing more than Dwight doing the math for you.


Stan

Re: Pontiacs
 

",,,It seem you do not understand how increasing bore and stroke the legal amounts (engines ci's) while holding the other specs constant will increase CR to be higher than the stock engines CR..."

Stan, I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

BUT I did finish high school & 3 years of college. Made pretty good grades in math, up to, but not including trig.

I DO understand that if you increase the size of the hole and/or the length of the stroke, the cubes & compression will increase. Volume of valve reliefs, deck height, gasket thickness/hole size, piston to cyl wall clearance, & distance to the top of the top ring are also involved in figuring true compression.

BUT, the MAIN thing I'M talkin about is the SMALL size of the min chamber size allowed, which is much smaller than any figure I've ever heard of, or read about, that Pontiac ever advertised, or that any Pontiac guy has ever actually measured. MAYBE somebody at GM did actually provide NHRA with the small chamber sizes, & NHRA just took their word for it & didn't even check. I DON"T KNOW !

Hey, I'm not suggesting that I think NHRA should do anything that will make ANY Pontiac engine less competitive.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd like for every Pontiac V8 to have NHRA numbers that would make it competitive, in whatever class it runs.

So, what's your problem ? You & me seem to get crosswise here & on the PY forum. My suggestion is that we avoid each other as much as possible. You agree ? :confused:

Re: Pontiacs
 

I don't have a problem. I am just trying a have a discussion. You seem to think that these engines were built to very close tolerances at the factory. They were not. That is why people spend a lot of money to "Blueprint" them.

Stan

Re: Pontiacs
 

All this got me to thinkin back on the 1st Stocker engine I had built.

The car was a '68 Bird, with the 330hp D-port engine. It was in the winter of 1974. That was back before you could go on the internet & find the info you needed. I wrote to H-O Racing Specialties & got their opinions on how the car should be set up. They were nice enuff to send me the basic info I needed.

Also wrote to NHRA & got written specs for the engine, car, & class I was building. When I saw that small combustion chamber size I realized that the machine shop would have to cut 'em down quite a bit. But, at that time I think I only had one set of the correct heads. Assuming I may need to take a little off the surface later on, for some reason, I told the machine shop guy to cut only enuff to leave at least 1cc cushion. That way the heads would pass tech, AND leave just a little meat for the future, in case it would be needed.

Well, I knew very little to nothing about engine building. But this shop had built some Stock & SS stuff, including a 389 Pontiac SS engine. So, they built my engine & I stuck it in, along with a long tail(Didn't even know they came in long & short) TH400 trans & the 9" Vitar(anybody remember them ?) converter that H-O had recommended.

Well, it wouldn't run anywhere close to the nat record, which I think, in E/SA, was a mid 12, at that time. But, it did run high 12's & my girlfriend(now wife) could cut some good lights, so she won her first 6 races in a row at local tracks. She also won the biggest race of the year(LA State Championship) at our closest track, near Monroe, LA.

Took it to a div 4 points race at LaPlace, LA. Wesley was one of the tech guys. When he took a quick glance at the car, he said that if I'd cover up the radio hole in the dash & put the correct factory fan on it, I could bring it back & he'd take a closer look. Well, we were 5 or 6 hours from home & I didn't have the correct fan. Didn't even know what fan was correct. So, we just loaded up & watched the race.

That was my introduction to competitive Stock racing. Thankfully, bracket racing came to our area that next year, & we found our place. I've always loved Stock class racing, but bracket racing worked out much better for us. I always enjoy thinkin back on all of it. :)

Considering what the Stock rules were back then, & what they are now, it makes me wonder why they even call the class "Stock", nowadays. Today's Stockers are quicker than the Super Stockers were, back then. Julie Biermann drives a '68 330hp Bird Stocker & turns 10.70's. That's 2 full secs quicker than we ran & almost 2 sec below the '75 E/SA nat record. Yeah, Stock ain't what it use to be.

Re: Pontiacs
 

When I think of competitive Pontiac class cars, I usually think of either a GTO or a Firebird. The GTO came along a few years ahead of the Bird. So, I decided to make a list of the GTO's that come to my mind, when I think of GTO class cars. This site allows 9 pics per post. So I'll post the 1st 9 that come to my mind. Then, I may come back later & swap some out, as I think of 'em.

It's probably easier to start with the older year models & come up from there.

I'll start with '65

'65 - The Bill Knafel Pontiac "Tin Indian III", with the names Bill Abraham & Arlen Vanke on the rear fenders.

'66 - Definitely the Knafel Pontiac '66 "Trophy Car".

'67 - The green SS, pictured doin a wheelie. Don't remember now who owned it. Someone else drove it at the Winter Nats one year. Didn't run real strong, but was definitely a one-of at the track.

'68 - Tim Gillespie Stocker. MAY have been the quickest '68 GTO Stocker ever. IIRC, it ran high 10's, & made the field at Indy. Don't know of anybody running one today, unless a new owner is driving the one Adam Strang ran.

'69 - "Big Iron" Stocker. Hey, it was a nice black '69, which does it for me. The reason I don't list an orange Judge is because I hated that color when it 1st came out. That's what prevented me from buying a new '69 Judge. When I ordered my '69, that was the only color available. I think they actually called it Carousel Red. But, to me, it was ORANGE. I said: " I ain't about to ride around in no orange car". So, I ordered a silver GTO, which I later painted black. Later in the year, the Judge was available in several other colors, including silver & black.

'70 - Ray Stover's "Kathy's Clown" Stocker

'71 - Mick Leiferman's 3-time US Nats RU car.

'72 - Sonny Ray's multi nat event winning SS car

'73 - Actually, the 1st '73 that comes to mind is the one on the mag cover depicting the SD455 powered GTO that never was. But, as for a real one, it's Mick Leiferman's black one.

'74 - There have been lots of good '74's. Since only 9 pics are allowed per post, I won't post any '74 pics. I'll just mention 3 that come to mind. Rock Running's '74 US Nats class winner, Bill Rink's record holder & class winner, and Brad Koivisto's black one, which is by far the quickest ever, that I know of, having run some high 10's. Don't think any other '74 ever ran a 10, in Stock. These last 2 cars were the highest qualified Pontiacs at the div 7 race, going on today.

Re: Pontiacs
 

Now for my list of 1st & 2nd gen Birds. There have been so many to choose from, I'll separate 'em into Stock & SS.

I'll post pics of 9, but will probably mention a few more.

'67 - Randi Lyn Shipp probably has the most popular one, in recent years. But, I'm gonna choose the one Bryan Phillips has run for a long time. He broke into the 10's quite a few years ago, & qualified really well at lots of races.

'68 - There have been LOTS of strong '68's, thru the years. It's hard to pick just one. BUT, I'll pick the '68 that won TWO US Nats, in '73 & '77, with different owners/drivers.

'69 - That will have to be John Schloes' Bird. Ran a RAIV 'til it cracked a head. Still runs mid-10's, with a D-port engine.

'70 - That'll have to be the quickest Pontiac powered Stocker, ever, owned & driven by Scott Burton.

'71 - Scott Burton ran strong with a Bird listed as a '71. I'm not sure if it was the same Bird he later changed over to the '70 RAIV car, or not.

'72 - That'll be the car that Scott's son Brad has raced for quite awhile, in which he won 2 nat Stock championships.

'73 - That'll be the famous Herslow & Morlock SD455 cover car.

'74 - I'll choose the Mulry & Aceves Bird. Bob Mulry drove it to LOTS of #1 qualifying positions, some more than 1.5 sec under the index. They also set the J/SA & K/SA nat records with it, in Formula trim, then changed it to Trans Am trim & set the L/SA nat record.

'75 - Ryan Warter has won the Northwest Nats & some smaller races with his '75 Formy.

'76 - Mike Morgan won class @ Indy with his '76 Bird, which is now owned by Kevin Love, in Canada.

'77 - This is another year model which has had LOTS of good Bird Stockers, many of which were nat record holders. But, I suppose I'll choose the Bird that Don Holmes drove for many years, which Rob Holmes is still running.

'78 - Lots of '78 Birds were probably switched over to '77 trim, when it made 'em more competitive. So, I won't choose a '78 Stocker.

'79 - Since the '79 400 Pontiac engine only came with a stick, I've never known of a Pontiac powered '79 Bird Stocker.

'80 -'81 - Of course there have been a few 301T Bird Stockers. Neil Smedley won a big race with one. Recently, Rick Unterseh has the only one I'm aware of. His car runs pretty strong. I know he was #1 qualifier at least once. He's posted that he's bought another 301T former Stocker & will rig it up for his wife to drive, IIRC.

Re: Pontiacs
 

Now for my list of SS 1st & 2nd gen Birds.

'67 - Gonna go way back & pick the one that was sponsored by Stan Long Pontiac & Gratiot Motor Supply. It won races & was a nat record holder, driven by Tony Knieper.

'68 - I'll pick the Roy & Mike McKinney Bird.

'69 - This will have to be the 1st reg SS Pontiac in the 9's, driven by Keri Angeles & owned by her Dad, John.

'70-'71 - Can't think of any '70-'71 SS Birds, right off. ​Will have to look back thru my pics.

'72 - This will be the Gary Moore Bird. SS-J record holder. A guy from TX sent me a PM saying that this car was originally a '71 455HO car, then was changed over to a '72, later. Can't verify. A close-up of the pic I'm posting clearly shows a '72 honeycomb grill.

'73 - Once the '73 SD455 Birds came out, there were several of these on the track. Herslow & Morlock switched their Stocker to SS. John Clegg did the same. Bob Michael rigged one up, which was later raced by Don Kennedy. The Clegg's recently redid their '73 & got it down into the mid-9's.

'74 - There have also been quite a few '74 SS Birds. Some are still running. But, I'll have to choose the nat record holding H-O Racing Specialties T/A. I've read that it's the same '74 which the Cleggs own, which they got down into the mid 9's.

'75-'76 - Can't think of a single one from these years.

'77 - Of course, this one will have to be the 350 powered Formy raced by Sal Piacentini, and now by Mike Morgan. It's won class at Indy & RU in class, to Bill Rink, a couple of times.

'78 - The former Ken Shawver '78 is one of the most famous Pontiac SS Birds of this century, I suppose. Several times a class winner at Indy, as well as #1 qualifier one year. Driven some by Monte Howard, now owned by Jack Good.