Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I'm sure that was considered, Mike.
But, as soon as someone blows up an engine, causing an hour clean up, and then finds out he lost anyway, it'll change back to the earlier display, I would imagine.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Kind of an interesting take on "first and Worst" to have both lose if they both red light.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I think to eliminate fan confusion would be just to extend the tree divider down over the red lights so the fast driver can't see that the slow driver red lit. The true lights come on but no win lights can illuminate until both drivers have left the starting line. The only problem would be driver's with two way radios and spotters.

Other than that, this issue is not even debatable. In 6 years of being on classracer I haven't seen one logical argument as to why this shouldn't be fixed. It just took some big name racers to get it in motion. And for those that say both racers should lose when they red light, that is not how a competition works. Must be one winner and one loser. Both teams can't lose the football game tomorrow, or any other sport for that matter.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Just like the double break out rule, its not who breaks out first but who breaks out the most under their dial in. A double red light should be treated the same way, make it fair on both ends of the track.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Whats gonna suck is when the driver of the much slower car leaves the line thinking he
"killed the tree" only to find out he was -.0001 red 3 seconds later. Like a fart with lumps its the true definition of surprise.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

While it does happen, the instances of both drivers red-lighting aren't super frequent. On top of that, the majority of races will have close enough handicaps that the red-light would be displayed (if applicable) before the slower car even got to the 60'. Stock is an outlier anymore, with larger handicaps than we see in most bracket racing these days.

The rule certainly makes sense for Box classes, since both drivers are reacting to the same light, at the same time. For bottom-bulb racing, I'm ambivalent towards the idea. As long as I know what the rules of the playground are, and they're the same for everybody, I'm happy to play on it.

I applaud Peter & Kyle being able to accomplish what they wanted to get done. Many people had begged Compulink for years to implement changes that would allow AutoStart to recognize Deep Staging, to no avail.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

First or worst, I think it's awesome and about time. When the world doesn't come to a screeching halt because of this I can see it throughout drag racing.

First or worst at either end...bout time!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Statistical data on faster cars having the "worst redlight" of a dual-foul situation in eliminations:

At Loose Rocker's Colonial Classic last year, we ran roughly 1,640 pairs of eliminations over the course of the weekend. The number of instances that this rule would have affected were (4) in Top and (5) in Footbrake: 0.5% of elimination runs. In Top ET, every one would've been resolved (true red light/win light displayed) before the cars were past the tree. In Footbrake, every one of the runs would've been resolved before either car made it to the 60'.

American Doorslammer Nationals: 3 / 580 = 0.5%
Fall Footbrake Frenzy: 14 / 884 / 1.5%
The majority of these instances would be resolved before any car got to the tree, and all instances would be resolved before the 60'.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Doesn't seem like such a big problem and hardly worth the fuss.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I asked the same question on this forum for years (literally, until my multitudinous posts about it became irritating to some people, who, for some reason, didn't "get it"; are you listening Ed Fernandez and Ed Wright?) Never EVER got a satisfactory answer. Just insults and character-assassination verbiage...

Ed Fernandez said, "It will never happen," and Ed Wright backed him up, with never any reason why this change to a more-fair way of dealing with double redlights needed not to happen.
Now, Ed Wright has done a complete 180 and says, " I honestly can't see how anyone could really say it's wrong," and Ed Fernandez has, miraculously, nothing to say. Well, this plan by two semi-pro Stock Eliminator racers is EXACTLY what I beat to death on this BB for years, and was never able to convince more than a few people of its worth. Maybe I'm just a lousy communicator..

It's not a part of Stock or Super Stock racing, YET, but, I think it may well filter down to those Eliminators if it's successful in the brackets.The fact is, it's not just about slow cars/fast cars.... In the final round of an Eliminator, you could have an "A" car running a "B" car, and they both go red. That's not a likely scenario, but it COULD happen. The winner would be the driver with the least infraction, just like in a double breakout.

That's fair.

I am just glad someone with some "pull" got it done. It was a long-time coming, and I am sure it took a lot of effort on the part of Kyle Seipel and Peter Biondo to get it this far. I applaud their efforts!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Unless you are on the losing end of one of those situations.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Rules count. I doubt there were any complaints about this issue at Mike's race. Also, find it amusing how non racers try to impact the way we race.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

The red light needs to happen in real time without delay. If I go red I want to know so I can do something positive on the run: 1. save my equipment for the next heads-up run where the worst red light looses, 2. manage averages for the AHFS, 3. test, and 4. practice driving the stripe.


If the other lane wants to see if I went red let them. Next time we race and I'm green they will be looking and more than likely be late and I will be in the next round.


Crosstalk is that electronic deep staging and how is that a .5 tree?


So the racers don't want to race by the rules, nothing new.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I think it will happen more now that no one knows the light situation until after both cars leave the line. Previously, if you had a 13 second stocker red lighting against a cobrajet before he has even gotten on his two step, the cobrajet might not care and end up cutting a .150 light. Now the game is changed and the fast car always has to assume the slow car is green, just like assuming the black jack dealer is hiding a face card. On the flip side a slow car, now knowing that his chances of losing on the starting line have decreased, might try to hit the tree a little harder knowing in the back of his mind that the other guy just may do the same. Hopefully decimal place in reaction time goes to the ten thousandth or more in case of identical reaction times.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

A voice of sanity.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

My thoughts also

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Check out our last discussion on the subject.( Re: worst red light debate, again!) I think this is the best progressive action our sport could have happen. CR

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

This may have been discussed but my first thought was that in bracket racing the car that breaks out the least wins, the first or worst rule does not apply..

So it seems only right that the car that went red by least amount should always be declared the winner too. . JMO

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

In all reality, the heads up racing guys and .90 classes have been racing like this forever.....worst Redlight loses....before you laugh , think about it...we are just a little late to the party.....no pun tended.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Conversely, one could argue that since it's such a small percentage, why would anyone have a problem with the change? (The answer is actually one 99% of people have ignored: the cost Compulink would charge every track for the upgrade.)

For the record, I don't really care that much either way. As long as I know what the rules are when I pull in the gate, and everybody's playing by the same rules, it's fine.


If you are the faster car, your red light would display instantly.

If you are the slower car, your red light would display when the faster car left. In the 'Cuda, in a worst case scenario against the fastest Factory car, this would be ~1.7 seconds into the run: just after pulling 2nd gear/just after the 60'. I'm pretty sure you don't want to lift when you're in the middle of a wheelstand.

In your really worst case scenario of driving The Truck vs the fastest Factory car, it would be less than 4.5 seconds into the run, which would be before the 330'.

I would hope that under current circumstances, you do not idle down the track after redlighting, holding up the show and burning down the pair of racers behind you.


There's so much wrong with that sentence that I'm just going to assume it was in jest.



No one is going to try to risk a redlight knowing their odds of winning a double-redlight have increased by 0.5 - 1.5%.

I attack the tree the same every time, regardless of whether I'm the fast car, the slow car, my opponent is red or green, etc. If I had a heads-up where I had the guy covered by half a second, I might set up .030. Do the same thing at the same time the same way every time. The idea that someone is going to "try harder" or will "back off" in any other situation reveals not having a good, consistent spot on the tree in the first place.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

It seems this debate keeps popping up and yet, as we all know, nothing will change. But for the sake of argument let's understand what "some" of the slower car racers would like to see happen in a performance oriented sport. They want a handicap start and a clean tree and a ton more time to figure out how to race the stripe. The faster cars, on the other hand, offer the handicap start and do not have the luxury of leaving on a clean tree and they don't have nearly the same amount of time to drive the stripe. And now some of the slower car racers want an additional accommodation by asking for this red light protection. While all the pressure cranks-up on the faster car while it waits up to 5 or 6 seconds to chase down the slower car.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

So, you've never left first?

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I would assume , as the "Stockers" get faster and faster, a few guys with low 10 sec. cars might change their opinions on this subject.
After all , it's usually about what's good for ME, rather than the sport in general.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Only for about 20 years - F,G,H,I,J,K,M,N. Raced two barrels, off and on, for several years. Actually my favorite classes but never wanted to change the red light rule.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Bruce Noland wrote:

"some of the slower car racers want an additional accommodation by asking for this red light protection."

Can you rell me what "additional... protection" is afforded by making the situation IDENTICAL (BOTH cars would have an equal chance to red light, now, with the new rule) because in making them equals, there is no "additional... protection." And, if it's truly a small issue, why are you vehemently posting lengthy arguments against it? Especially, if your contention that "We all know it isn't going to happen" is true. so, no worries... LOL!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Vehemently? The situation is not identical. Bill you are showing your keyboard knowledge again. There is nothing identical about giving a racer a clean tree in one lane and asking another racer to wait for 5 or 6 seconds to give pursuit. Now that's a real LOL.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Edited out.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Well, I don't know what "keyboard knowledge" has to do with vocabulary, but that's not the question here; You seem to want to bring up factors like driving off a "clean tree" as an advantage for a first-to-leave car, and you're right; I think that IS an advantage. But, if you are going to include the myriad advantages/disadvantages of faster or, slower cars, it is only fair to mention that there are many reasons why a fast or slow car might be perceived as having an advantage, such as; it is common knowledge that weather conditions, such as wind and temperature, affect a slow car's e.t. a lot more than fast cars' times (making it harder to "dial",) and,driving the stripe is much easier for the car that's closing the gap, because he has a better view of the other car, the stripe and the closing-rate; the first car has to try to gauge the progress of the two cars by looking back over his shoulder at the oncoming car... It is said that the slower car watches the upcoming finish-line as a series of still photographs, while the closing car watches a movie... no gaps, and so on, and, so on.

In the final analysis, it is impossible to factor in all the many conditions and situations that might give one car, or another, the advantage, and a "clean tree" falls into that category, just like driving the stripe.

In actuality, it could be said that driving off a "clean tree" for the first-to-leave car is "equalized" by the greater difficulty of driving the stripe.

So, who knows; I just know that from an ethical standpoint, it would seem that having BOTH cars face equal "red light jeopardy" (which they don't now, if the first-to leave, Bulbs,) is more fair than the system we have, now. That's what TruStart would give us.

Just my 2-cents...

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

"Us" You are not a racer Bill. Don't forget that. All the other weather condition stuff is hooey. The rules as currently configured offer a little something for both sides of this issue but should not be rejigged to offer red light protection for the slow racers.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

LMAO! http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/laughing21.gifhttp://smileyjungle.com/smilies/laughing22.gif http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/laughing21.gif

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Great Sunday entertainment...................this thread is the best EVER !!
Just one wow after the next.
Carry on.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Actually Michael, I thought he was baiting him until he posted that.
Nobody can truly believe weather stuff is "hooey" can they?

LMAO as well!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

It sure is Hooey when it comes to this Red Light discussion.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I like your opinion Ronnie!! My Opinion... do away with all the "driver assist" electronics and lets go back to 1970's style racing where the best driver wins!! Lets race without all the electronic tools that can make anyone a good driver - we could start with removing reaction times from the time slip. Or... maybe it's time we just go to racing with remote cars and save us all a LOT of $$$. - Like someone else said, maybe I'm just getting to old for all this crap! Or if I'm not to old maybe I've just been doing it for to long. I really like Wally's original idea of drag racing... put two cars beside each other and the first one to the other end wins!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Bruce said, "You are not a racer..."

I have two cars I run brackets with, currently; a 1972 Valiant with a supercharged (Vortech) 360 Magnum that runs high 11's and a turbocharged, slant six-powered 1964 Valiant which also runs high 11's, and though neither is a class-legal car, they both run off rules that mirror NHRA rules insofar as starting line procedures go.... including the archaic, "first red light loses the race." protocol..

So yes, I have a vested interest in where this issue goes.

Additionally, this forum exists for comments from people who have no NHRA permanent number; that's its stated purpose. Just because somebody may not be runnning a car in Stock/S-S competition right now, is no indicator of the validity of their posts. Ideas can come from anywhere, and the poster may have been an NHRA racer for years (like me,) or a drag strip tech, for years (like me,) or have been a student of the sport for a lot of years, (like me,) and have opinions on the current rules... and this is the place to talk about them.

There is, I believe, another forum, for people who have an NHRA permanent number to post in, if they want. At least, there was at one time... That may work better for you. Dunno...

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Thanks for your admissions. Similar rules for bracket racers have nothing to do with us. Nice try at obfuscation. Wish I knew how to make all those immature little doodles that Beard uses.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

"You're not a racer."

Not true.

Starting line rules for bracket races, one way or another, have EVERYTHING to do with ME.

That's why my interest us focused on what happens to this upcoming change; bracket rules (starting-line procedures) are usually identical or, almost-identical to what happens in NHRA Stock and Super Stock.

If TruStart is implemented in Stock and S/S, on a national basis, I'm fairly sure that brackets will be next.

I think the odds are looking favorable for that, now. Just my opnion.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Mr. Dedman, you’ve been quite correct all these years on this subject. The abuse you’ve received has been truly surreal. That finally…someone…somewhere is going to see the light…makes you understand how Whittaker Chambers felt when they said he was lying.

For your own peace of mind, know you owe no one an explanation of your position. If anyone asks you to explain why the worst red light is where things ought to be, ignore them. If it has to be explained, they’ll never understand the explanation.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I haven`t had time to read all of these thoughts and posts, but if both racers go red the winning driver`s dial in will flash, so you will know as soon as the quicker racer leaves.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

OK Bill you're a bracket racer. No major sanctioning body will open this can of worms.