Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Chuck,
The AA/S and AA/SA classes were created for the old cars, such as the ZL-1, the Hemi cars, the 427/425, and a few other combinations, before the new cars came to Stock Eliminator. Several racers running the older cars in A/S and A/SA went to Len Imbrogno and asked for a 7.0 or 7.5 pounds per HP class. At the time, some of the Hemi cars were at 445 HP, as was the ZL-1, the L-88 was at 440. We (Kevin Cradduck and I) were running a 427/425 with the 401 heads at the time, factored at 435, and we had a ZL-1 in pieces in the shop. The 7.5# weight break was agreed upon, and then the index was set at 10.90, the idea being the cars could be run hard, and put some nice numbers on the scoreboards for the fans, without everyone ending up being factored at 450+ HP. We ran AA/SA almost exclusively for a while, as I was one of the first of the people who asked for the class, because we were building the ZL-1 at the time.

Within two years or so, the new cars were in Stock Eliminator, and all the indexes were lowered 0.30 across the board.

Yes, it would certainly be wise and fair to raise the AA/S and AA/SA indexes to somewhere around 10.75, or better still, 10.80.

The current 10.60 index would be fine, if the weight break was 7.0#, which some had suggested to begin with. The problem with a 7.0# weight break is that it would stop about 1/2 of the cars (or even more than 1/2) that are eligible now from running AA/S and AA/SA. Not a good solution.

When NHRA first stated their intention to move the new cars into their own classes, several racers suggested that the older cars get a 7.0# class as well as keeping the 7.5# class, to allow the cars factored at 435-440 and up to run at 7.0# and run off the 10.60 index. They shot that idea down quickly.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

That may asking a bit much - the logic, sense and stuff.


The other inconsistencies of index differential between classes that have been pointed out earlier in this thread need to be corrected, too. They were chosen back during a time when power factors were not handed out as they are now. It was like "we've got this bunch of Chevy II hardtops that aren't much slower that this bunch of Chevy II sedans so we will give them a harder index" type of rationale. It would be nice to clean it up to make the index differences for changes in weight factors consistent and let the chips fall where they may (in the AHFS pot!).

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

AAA/SA , 7.0 , 10.60.........AA/SA 7.5 10.80...........A/SA 8.0 11.00 , never happen but fun to dream about! What would be the harm in it? id love to play in triple A!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Two more great posts by Alan and Dwight. Both are right on target and point out the other flaws beside AA/S that have been brought to our attention earlier in the thread by Mike Carr, Billy Nees, and other racers.

I can understand NHRA not wanting to create a 7# class back in the day but perhaps now it should be revisited? Nitro Joe's stats show that in the high HP stock class cars the transmission type is no advantage either way- so why wouldn't the idea of having AAA/S @ 7# with a 10.60 index and AA/S @ 7.5# with a 10.80 index, sticks and autos combined, (in these two classes only) seem reasonable? Interesting enough the number of classes would remain the same while creating a new 7# class in the process.

Considering that the FS cars were placed in their own classes last year with sticks and autos combined- I see no reason it wouldn't be a good idea in AAA/S and AA/S provided the AHFS still factors the HP ratings by transmission type just as they they currently do in the FS classes.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Mike, I don't think I would disagree with a 7.0# class and a 7.5# class with sticks and automatics combined. We've got a fresh Jerico in the shop, and besides, Jimmy Bridges has been busting my chops about building the ZL-1 and putting the stick behind it. We might be back out later in the year, if things go okay.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

What were the breaks when it was AA/SA, BB/SA, CC/SA? Why did they go away?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I think that CC/SA was what AA/SA was previously, and is now, 7.5#, but I cannot remember for sure.

They went away because the new cars were put in their own classes. NHRA cut the top two classes for traditional cars, probably because almost no one could run a 6.5# class, and they wanted to keep the number of classes down. I know the ZL-1, and the L-88, can make the 7.0# class, not sure what else can. We were interested in the 7.0# class because we have most of the pieces, including an aluminum GM ZL-1 block, to put the ZL-1 together and put it in the car, 7.0# would be tough with the automatic in the car, but we have the Jerico.


When we originally asked for AA, we asked for a 7.0# class, because we had a ZL-1 going together, Johnny and Chad Rhodes were working on an L-88, Joe Fasano and Steve Calabro had the silver L-88 Corvette, Craig Couris had the red L-88 Corvette, and there were others, I think Wikle was building a ZL-1 for someone when I talked to him. At 445HP for the ZL-1, and 440 for the L-88, the cars were real heavy with an 8.0# weight break, and there were people wanting to see more cars going fast in Stock Eliminator. The guys I was talking to were wanting a class where we could let the cars run hard, a 9.90 would only be 1.0 under, you'd have to go 9.70 to get HP.

Len Imbrogno went to NHRA on our behalf, and they came back with the 7.5# AA class as a compromise, and gave us the 10.90 index we asked for. I think by then maybe Bobby DeArmond and a few others were on board for AA, and the 7.5# weight break allowed the 427/425 and some other cars to run, including the 396/375 cars. This may have been even better, because some of the 396/375 guys were feeling that being able to run the top class was being taken away from them unfairly.

Not long after, the new cars came into the class, and with some of them quickly being factored to 450HP or more, they needed even lighter classes, so NHRA made classes for them, I think AA became a 6.5# class, BB was added as a 7.0# class, and what was AA became CC and remained a 7.5# class. The alphabet soup got real murky by then, I'm not real certain on the classes, as we dropped back to A/SA, and put the ZL-1 on the back burner, after we were told by some of the guys with new cars that their cars that were factored the same as ours were making over 150HP more, and their time slips backed it up.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Seems like the west coast AA cars don't have an issue qualifying in the top 10 on a consistent basis. The index looks just fine to me.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

David, I assume you're talking about the --one-- AA/SA car on the west coast that has "consistently" qualified in the top ten ? .... Additionally - with this most favorable index, I'll assume you're gonna run AA all this season including showing up at Indy in AA trim ?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I was against slowing the index ,if its what is best for the class then I vote to change it to 10.80 . I also feel hat we should have 7.0# class that way the 6.5# cars can race as well. leave the 10.60 index for the 7.0# cars

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

No, my car is just fine running in A and B thank you.
Think about what you are asking. Either McClanahan/Rayburn/Dourlet have been roughly in the top 16 or better and every race running better than .9 under. Why in their right mind would NHRA take 2 tenths off the AA index to put these cars at ~1.10 under and on top of the sheet? If that isn't manipulating the system to get what you want I don't know what is. What you should be doing is campaigning NHRA to take 2 tenths off all the indexes except for AA.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

What you should be doing is campaigning NHRA to take 2 tenths off all the indexes except for AA.[/QUOTE]

best idea yet!!!!!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Dave, First off, What I "asked for" in my request to NHRA was the Index to be adjusted to 10.70. The reason was to give the AA cars an equal chance (level playing field) to qualify at races like Indy and The Sportsnational events, where everybody is running their stuff all out to qualify for a 128 car field. It had nothing to do with manipulating anything. I promise you at a race like Indy, no AA cars will be in the top half of the field, let alone the top 10. This is why they don't even come to these races. My request was denied, AND I'm fine with that. I'm gonna race! The West Coast Guys are deservingly fast - Rayburn has worked hard on his combo! But keep in mind they are running their stuff flat out, because, they don't have to be worried about getting a hp hit even in the best conditions. The other cars do. So don't place too much on what you see at the early West Coast Races where most fast cars are protecting their combos. Additionally, what I ask for, was for NHRA to just take a look, and maybe help the fastest "old" muscle car class grow...And it's because you're right, why would you be interested in taking the weight out to come play - only to get hit with a 4 tenths index penalty... I love all stock class racing, but tell me, would you rather watch AA class at Indy with 10 cars, or a U/S through V/S 8 car combo ?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The V/S combo was fun, it was almost three seconds more fun than the AA/SA cars.


Dave's car with 405# out for AA/SA would be a 9.50s player on a good day. Maybe even high 9.40s


I still live by the Chuck Rayburn rule: I don't have one so I have no vote !

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

At Indy a10:23 @ B weight would be ______ @ AA weight? My guess would be about 9.82.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Thanks Larry, I appreciate the kind words.

Bruce, you must be talking about me. If you want to believe my runs at Indy last year are indicative of how my car runs, so be it...you are entitled to your opinion. Since you are busy looking back at stats, can you go back and check and see if any B/SA cars went as quick as you did in A/SA at the Atco Open and the Dutch last year?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Dave,
I heard you were a pretty busy fellow at Indy last year but I do believe you threw up your best number in between your other activities. Given the air at Indy and your passes at Atco, all the numbers are pretty close. You are out here trying to influence a debate when you don't even run in the class and you're smart enough to know you couldn't qualify in AA at Indy. This is where the debate is centered - INDY. Everywhere else the AA cars are receiving a gift.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I have to go with Larry Hill and the Chuck Rayburn rule; I don't have one so I got no vote. However;;;; I really don't know the theory from to move beyond the normal (by what standards I have no idea) from about .10 to .15 class to class to the .40 to that AA class. But I got no vote so I guess it don't matter. Consider this clutter.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Bruce
We were .28 slower at Indy (3900) DA on friday running class than the Atco open race (600) DA on thursday's record runs Just for a comparison. Indy did correct .02 better but I think my stuff runs better at altitude.

rod

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Thanks Rod

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

My car is a natural B car, so I cannot make AA. However on a number of occasions I have considered switching to the L88 combo which would put me in AA. I don't want to do that because of 2 things 1. the index is too fast and I occasionally go to Indy and also care about how I qualify. 2. I wish there was a class faster than AA, I don't like running a car any heavier than need be so I wouldn't wish to run the current AA weight brake.

To answer the original question, I would want the index to be moved slower 1-3 tenths.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

In a preview of Indy, at the Jegs Sportsnationals, with a qualified 128 car field, I was just wondering how the large contengent of AA/ stockers made out ?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2016#indextop

127 2020 AA/SA Brenda Grubbs, Magnolia TX, '69 Camaro 10.260 10.60 -0.340

Looks like only 1 AA car showed up. 127th.

Rick Thomason
GTOMayhem

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

When the sole AA car there is outrun by B/SA cars you can't really put much into the debate..
What I found interesting is that considering Larry was going 9.89/9.90 in A had he not lifted he would have been a low 9.70s in AA based on the math earlier discussed in this thread. That would have put him around the #50 qualifier.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

No way we could get the car that light. Our best chance to get "that" light would have Allison Smyth run the car by remote control.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Larry, Remember that Allison have a masters in electrical engineering.
She'll take the challenge and make that work, so be careful what you ask for. LOL
Love your's and Patsy's Live from threads. They make us closer to the racing and the racers.
God Bless,
Walt

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

How about this. Dodge Hellcat. 4400 lbs, AA/SA What do you think Jimbo?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

4400lbs, that'll be easy on parts. Can the Dana 80 rear end from the one ton trucks be used?

You know the AA index is wrong when so many cars add weight and run A instead.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

My father-in-law has one, I wonder if I can talk him into letting me turn it into a stocker? Hmmmm.....

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Mr. Jeff : Thanks for bringing up one of my previous points. It's only a matter of time before one or more of the new "street car" combos will fit into AA/S... As nice as it is to have an "ALL OUT paper car class", AHFS, with the current index, will be slow to adjust these under factored new car combos. The current self serving, no index change advocates will be crying the blues when their combo - like mine - is made obsolete overnight, for about 5 years or until the HP adjustments are brought in line. Some of us old farts will be dead by then. I guess we can be buried with our old muscle cars and our egos.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The AA index is wrong. Simple as that. It could be one of the most exciting classes in stock, but few want to run the class because of the index. I believe this index was made because of the insanely fast supercharged fords a few years back. It's time for NHRA to do the right thing and put this index at 10.80, where someone really fast has a shot at qualify for Indy running AA.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Jimbo, they ain't paper, I got one just for you white in color, just heavy. On a serious note, it would be interesting to have them. Need a 7 lb class in stock, and the 10.60 is a little rough. Looking at B in relation to A, it should be 10.75, looking at the relation to most other classes, there is a .15 per class, which would indicate 10.85. 10.80 is the split. You want me to work on that? Cost is high. Maybe 3 cases at Indy. I got what you need, a 4.150 crank and might have pistons. That would cure that problem..... Another 3 cases It's a really good crank, maybe 4 cases.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Mr. Jeff: any help is worth a case or 3. With over 15,000 views there must be some interest. My thought is the index should be 10.75 / 10.70. That tenth would help a bunch, without taking away the challenge to work on our stuff and make it faster. "IF" the West Coast hitters traveled east of the Mississippi often, they'd be begging for it too. Keep in mind it's been almost three years and no AA/Stocker has been a second under in NHRA competition. Not one HP strike ....AND that's running in some pretty good conditions! An index change is the only way to grow the class, and get some of the guys hiding in A to come and play!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I will make a proposal. I don't think 10.70 is much help. I think a proposal for next year should include the index @ 10.80 for AA (or a new name or something like that) and 10.60 or something for AAA (or a new name) based on a 7 lb per factored hp. I mean lets face it, the new showroom cars are coming. Mopar will probably build the ADR Hellcat which is a Challenger with the Hellcat motor, lightweight tires (in the trunk) and DOT tires on the car, room for big drag radials, optional cage, no rear seat, and many other items. The car has already been to the new car show for dealers and is a topic around Detroit with both Dodge brand sales and Mopar Performance. And we are certainly not the only manufacturer doing this. This kind of interest is good for the industry and drag racing as a whole.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

No doubt about it. Jeff is correct on every point he has just stated above (except 3 cases is too cheap) and I'm reasonably confident that something will be done about the AA index-and soon.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I was opposed to changing it but after looking at all the sides and opinions posted it really is nessecary to atleast make the present "AA" index 10.80.
I think what is really nessecary is a 7.0# weight break for "AA" 10.60 index and 7.5# for "BB" 10.80 index.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

If NHRA would do a AA shootout, auto and stick combined, like the SS/AH shootout I believe there would be a lot of cars show from coast to coast. Run them back to back with the AH cars.

Indy at one time was a showcase for ALL classes. Class winners including singles made the show. I believe it needs to return to that format. If you win your class and run at least .500 under, which is good enough to qualify for a record, you are in. The $30k motors can fill out the field.

Why are AA/S and AA/SA records still open??? I've witnessed several passes in the 9.70's

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

K and L have been like that for years and there has never been a reasonable explanation for the disparity. We tried to get it changed as far back as 1983 but no dice.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Wouldn't this ADR Challenger be in a Factory Stock class?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The ADR is a showroom car (or will be when produced). It is the same platform as the Hellcat and is part of that family. I guess kinda like the Superbirds and Daytonas in 69 and 70 as opposed to the Drag Packs of new and the Hemi Cudas and Hemi Darts of 68. The Hellcat motor has substantially less hp than the new DP Blown car.