Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Can somebody post the 1970 Indy Stock stick shift class winners if they have them?
Thanks!!! |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
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I don't have the sheet but if Rich B (or somebody) can PM and email it to me I can post it. I am also looking for 1971 NHRA events & records. Anyhow, for 1970 Indy I got these from Boyce's Junior Stock book, which is awesome by the way. E/S Charbonneau, 67 Fairlane Wagon 427/410 F/S Ogles Z28 H/S Marks, Olds K/S Mathews&Bender 69 Chevelle LM1 350/255 (held record 12.68 at 107.1 as of late 1970, not sure if this et/mph from indy or not!) L/S Cieri 66 Nova 283/220 13.19 at 102.5 M/S Hughes 57 Chev N/S Ronca 56 Chev 2d sedan 13.21 P/S Bennett/Swoope 57 Chev 4d 210 9p-Wagon 283/220 Q/S Westberg&Westfall 55 Chev V/S Mullins 53 Olds That's all the detail it gives, a start anyway. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Deuce Coupe;
I applaud your determination to attempt to describe, in detail, the scenario that was Stock Eliminator (and, Super Stock,) for that period. It is fraught with a frustrating array of changes, both logical and illogical, and getting all the many, many, details right, will be a monumental challenge! I can't imagine how many hours of painstaking researech it will take to get, even a "mostly-right" accounting of what went on, for several reasons. Not the least of which will be that the time-frame is thirty-forty years ago... Good luck with that! It needs to be done, and I'm just glad you seem "up-to-the-task." Many past and present racers will be in your debt when you finish it, They'll appreciate it, for sure. There was one phenomenon during that time peiod that was unique to the era that some present-day racers may be unaware of, and that was the advent (in about 1964) and eventual demise, entirely, of a unique style of race car that changed the face of drag racing for a few years: The Hydramatic-equipped, 1955-1960 Chevy sedan delivery. In about 1970, they were eventually legislated out of existence because the factory never ever offered that transmission in the passenger- car-based "sedan delivery." They had Powerglides and (maybe) Turboglides, but, never a Hydramatic. There are many stories relative to how they got "legal-status" in the first place, the most believeable being, that since they were licenced (in California) as a TRUCK, they could use a truck transmission. Chevy pickups sometimes were factory-equipped wih 4-speed Hydramatics. In late '64 or maybe, early '65, a racing team named "Anglin-Clark-VanDill," running out of Washington state, set a new National Record in H/SA (I THINK) with the first one I was ever aware of. Of course, I had to have one, so I immediately built my own, a 220hp '57. By the time I got mine, "operational," several more had shown up in National Dragster and Drag News... all of a sudden, they were coming out of the woodwork! What made them so appealing was, they had 4-speeds, not two like a Powerglide and the Powerglides of the day had NO hi-stall converters available.. so, the little 283's loved that Hydro! It had a 3.87 (or later,) a 4.10 first gear. Added to that, was that the liberal rules of the day determined that ANY engine (horsepower) could be run with this drivetrain, so, you could build a 270 (twin 4-bbl) or a 283 horsepower, fuel injected sedan delivery and run the appropriate Stock class. Then, there was the advantage that the sedan deliveries were available (and, "legal") for six years, 1955-through 1960, so the combinations were endless... I remember that at one point, it seemed that EVERY "automatic" Stock class record that they were legal for (something like E-Stock automatic down through N Stock automatic) was held by some form, or combination, of Hydro/sedan delvery. At least, that's the way I remember it... They were everywhere! Then, in about 1971, NHRA came out with a proclamation banning the use of that transmission in sedan deliveries, altogether. As quickly as they had appeared, they were gone. The ironic timing of this announcement is, that the development of high-stall and smaller-diameter torque converters was imminent and may have even been concurrent with the ban on Hydros, so I would imagine, the hurt was short-lived.... a good, high-stall Powerglide might have even been quicker than the Hydro by then. Maybe someone on here took a Hydro out and replaced it with a properly-equipped Powerglide back then and can fill us in on the comparison. Anyway, this is a period of time (1965-1970) that needs to be explained... in detail. Thanks for all you do! |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Bill,
thanks for the encouragement! I never worked on the old Hydramatic, even though we lived only 2 miles from the Hydramatic Plant site - after the fire. I used to think of it as a useless old obsolete dog of a trans, before I learned more. Now I realize, it was really just cost that drove it to be obsolete. Wiki has what I think is a good writeup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydramatic Between Wiki, pgs 59-62, pg 74-75, and pg86 (on the later dump&fill Hydramatic) of Boyce;s Junior Stock, and your comments, I cant add much to the theory or history. What I can do is Gonkulate the cars, run the numbers, see what made the ET/MPH jive. Just to be sure, ALL the sedan deliveries had to run the older (pre-1956) Hydramatic, and NOT the newer Super Dump&Fill version, right? (Wiki jives with this as they say the old Hydramatic continued on til 1962 as the truck/commercial version, while the new dump&fill was big-car only, especially after 1961 when the Roto / SlimJim appeared). ASIDE / ALL: Ok I found one ET/MPH for the 429scj, from Larry Davis "Quarter Mile Muscle" (I don't think he is a Ford guy, he gets a lot of stuff mixed up but book looks great) - 12.70 at 109.5mph, E/SA, 70 Cyclone 429scj, c6/auto. Well at least that's one. A long way from the LS6 time of 11.49 at 121mph, B/S or C/S, same year. 3634/450=8.08, C/S=8.00 but the text & pic, pg138 Boyce, says B/S. Hmmm. Factored already? Still NOTHING on the Buick Stage 1 (any year), Chev LS5, Olds 442 non-W30, or Pontiac 455. Any info appreciated, I will keep hunting. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
The National record for I/SA in 1966 was 14.78 and it was set at Half Moon Bay on the west coast IIRC. John Barkley, I think it was....'57 Chevy with a P/G. I assume he had some converters not readily available even back then. I don't know that for a fact but he was teamed up with Marv Ripes on some cars and it would make sense. Half Moon Bay was said to be a very fast track....like many here in the east....
Most P/G cars did not run as fast as the hydro equipped SD's...and once people saw the hydros run many were built to take advantage of that loophole.. My friend and I assembled a '57 Sedan Delivery with a 283/220 and a hydro. It was a project someone else started. We got it and put it together....We raced it locally mostly.....but did go to Indy that year. I think we ran a best of around 14.80 in 1966 or just into the 14.70's.... I used to joke to my friend who mostly drove that car....If you lose to a P/G car don't come back....! We built another car in 1969-1970 and at first planned on racing it with an automatic trans. We did not realize at the time only a P/G was legal and rather than run it with the lowly P/G we ran it with a manual trans.... By 1970 P/G converters were good enough that a 2 speed could run as fast as a 3 speed...... I always regretted NOT racing what we built with one. I would have spent a lot less time trying to fix things I think.... |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
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Rich, thanks for that information. I don't have any hard numbers for a comparison, but it was the general concensus that the "new" dump-and-fill transmission, though the ratios were slightly better, was NOT bas fast as trhe "old" hydro.
Out there, somewhere, there's got to be somebody who ran a hydro and replaced it with a Powerglide after the converters had some devellopmental time... and might have been even faster than the hydro... I'd love to hear from someone who'd done that... Here's a pic of mine in 1967, along with partner Harry Sparks... I discovered just now (11:48 p.m. 6/24/2016) that I had inadvertently, left out the word NOT, which changed the meaning of my statement, entirely. I fixed it.... SORRY!!! |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Guys, I am trying to send photos of my conversion of John Dianna's Delivery to my 150 2dr. wagon I ran against Barkley for class at the 1970 us nationals. I used a pg with the same 2 x 4 motor John used. I did not change rear end or anything as I was a first time racer. I admit I drove off idle and never tried to stall it or changed converters.
I did buy bigger adjustable stahl headers and picked up a couple. George Supinski and then others ran it at 13.60s in florida at the Gators.... Try for his details from 1970 or 71. Val Hedworth was fast with a wagon also. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Dick, thanks for the information! That was a 1966. right?
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56
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Gick; I meant '56, of course. Thanks for that.
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Thanks Dick, the hydramatic vs powerglide cars are quite a story. I found this pic of Dianna's Delivery vs Garey in 1968 in case you had missed it: http://www.doverdragstrip.com/phpBB3...=2027&start=10 Good thread too. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Deuce coupe...
Here is a copy of a post I wrote back in 2007 that may help you with your article., The thread it comes from (one from December, 2007) has lots of posts from knowledgable people whose posts you might want to investigate. This is my contribution to that thread: "NHRA allowed the 4-speed HydraMatic in Chevy sedan deliveries and El Caminos from about 1964 until they pulled the plug on all the "Dual-Range" 4-speed HydraMatics somewhere arounf 1972 or '73....not sure of the exact dates. Nomads were just fancy station wagons and had to run Powerglides, like a sedan. How they ever got approved is not exactly known; I heard that some guy from California, who was a close friend of a Division Tech Director (perhaps, Div. VII), had a 348-powered Stocker that was an El Camino, and was licensed as a truck in California. He supposedly convinced this Division Tech guy that since it was licensed as a truck, it should be allowed to use a truck transmission. Chevy trucks at that time,didn't use Powerglides... they had 4-speed HydraMatics. I don't know how much of that story, if any, is true, so, please don't quote me. It was a l-o-n-g time ago... This was during a period of time when torque converter science was in its infancy. It was very difficult, if not impossible, to get a decent hi-stall converter for a Powerglide transmission. The NHRA rules at the time, allowed virtually any engine in the Blueprint Specs to run in virtually any body, so it was legal and feasible to run a 283 c.i.d., F.I. 283 horsepower motor in a '57 Chevy sedan delivery, for example, with a 4-speed HydraMatic tranny. These transmissions had a fluid coupling instead of a torque converter, and were very easy to modify for high stall speeds. The news of this transmission, its superior performance, and its across-the-board legality in Chevy "trucks" (sedan deliveries and El Caminos, included), spread like wildfire, and soon, they were populating every class from about E/SA down to N/SA, whicjh was the bottom "automatic." class for V8's at the time (16 pounds per hp???) At one point, they held virtually every record from E to N... with "host" vehicles ranging from '55 Chevy sedan deliveries with 4-bbl "Power Pack" 265s in N/SA (high 14's) up to '57 Chevy F-I- 283/283hp sedan deliveries, running mid- 13's in E/SA. I remember a letter-to-the-editor of National DRAGSTER from the wife of the driver/builder of "BIG DADDY": (not Garlits), a '60 Buick convertible G/SA Stocker from Lafayette, Indiana (Russ Matthews) who announced that her elderly husband was giving up trying to compete with these "fantasy cars" that were never built by the factory. He'd been a national record holder for years with his 401/nailhead/Dynaflow Buick, but the sedan deliveries made his car uncompetitive. So, he was quitting. She just wanted everyone to know why. I think that letter MAY have precipitated some action... It wasn't too long after that, that NHRA bit the bullet and disallowed that "truck" transmission in sedan deliveries and El Caminos. The reason they were disallowed is that NHRA finally (albeit, tacitly) admitted that the Chevy factory never put that transmission in passenger-car based vehicles. It was in pickups, panel trucks, and larger Chevy trucks, but NEVER in sedan deliveries (or, El Caminos.) I built one of the first ones to hit the strip in 1965, and I remember pouring over Chevy parts books, trying to find motor (rear) mounts that would fit the engine/tranny and the sedan crossmember. No go; they had mounts for Powerglides in sedans, and mounts for Hydros in Pickup trucks, but NOTHING for a Hydro-to-sedan cross-memeber (which is what the sedan delivery had... because it was, in essence, just a station wagon with 2 doors.) So, like everyone else, I had to build my own... LOL! With the advent of Marvin Ripes' (and, others') new hi-stall Powerglide converters, it soon became a moot point, anyway. This whole deal was a major embarrassment for NHRA, and one that I'm not sure they'll ever live down. It's been 35 years since they pulled the plug on the hydros in the sedan deliveries, and people still talk about it... You'd think they would have learned something about the bogus legalization of "never-never" combos..." I hijacked the thread... it was originally about the NHRA legalizing 4-speed manual transmissions in '55 (and, later) Chevies. This is a link to that earlier thread: http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=8410 Hope this helps! |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
NHRA knocked out all combinations that were never built or offered as regular production line combinations.....this included hydro equipped SD's. I think it was after the 1968 season.
'57 Chevy's could not use 4 speed transmissions anymore since they were only offered in Corvettes. 3 speed manual or P/G '62 Plymouth same deal.....383/343 could not run a 4 speed....3 speed manual or auto... Lot's of other combinations were disallowed....... |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Deuce Coupe,Please check your private messages.
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Bill, Thanks for that old Dec.2007 link: Great history on transmissions & NHRA. I gather from your comments: 1. Nobody drag raced a TurboGlide (or very few & not for long), fairly easy to see. 2. On the Roto / SlimJim - why was it so slow, isn't it just a simpler Super/Jetaway 2-coupling Hydramatic? 3. I had assumed folks like Lloyd & Carol Cox (61-62 Ventura/Cat) would have run the Roto, cant find that info, do you know? Or did they run the bigger-car Super Hydramatic? Good pics of Lloyd & Carol & Cars: http://www.dragracingonline.com/feat..._11-cox-1.html |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
1. The problem with a Turboglide was, it held the engine at about 3,500 rpm until it was going about 75 mph... Only then, after it was in 3rd gear (1:1) would the rpms start increasing. A small block Chevy doesn't make much power at 3,500 rpm... so, no, not many people ran them...
2. The Slim Jim was a 3-speed automatic that suffered from having one too few gears; it acted like a 4-speed automatic that was missing second gear... the large rpm drop from 1st to second was excerbated by the fact that second was a direct (mechanical) application of engine torque (had no power going through the fluid coupling) so there was no "slip" at all,and this droppped the rpm even further.. not a good thing. 2. I don't know which transmission the Cox cars ran, but if I had to guess, I would imagine that they all ran the two-fluid-coupling, 4-speed transmission; the Slim-Jim was too fragile and slow to be effective. Oldsmobile called that big-car transmission "Jetaway HydraMatic", while Pontiac called it "Strato-Flight HydraMatic"..... same transmission. I have never seen either referred to as a "Super HydraMatic." Sorry I don't know more about the Cox cars... but, I seem to remember that the Cox race cars were always high-performance versions, and as such, would not have come with the Slim Jim boxes. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Reference the 70/71 Records, I have one little tidbit that reminds us what communication was like in the "old days". I set the O/S record at the Gainesville Div II race in '71 at around 13.45, tore down and was really happy to get the record. What I didn't know was that Bruce Wilkinson set it the same weekend in Bowling Green at 13.41 or so. I got my certificate but it never hit ND which was a big deal back then. I had a 220hp '66 Belair Two door sedan and Bruce was running his '56 wagon at that time.
Jimmy Parker |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
The automatic transmissions and converter or fluid coupling issues were a very big deal back then and why manuals were preferred. "Slush Box" was a popular term...I had a '58 Pontiac with an automatic trans and raced it a little. It was my Street car and I also used it as a tow car. Trans went and I had it rebuilt by a racing buddie. Shifted to hard after the rebuild. Those transmissions failed often if raced.
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the same weekend in div 1. I got the points, nothing else. I set the ET record two more times. I never could run the MPH those guys ran. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
The dual-coupling units were used in their OEM applications because that was the NHRA class rule for Stock, but I never saw one in a Gas Coupe or Modified Production race car. Those cars would have (if they were not a manual-transmission car) an aftermarket, earlier model "Dual-Range" HydraMatic which only had a single fluid coupling.
There were several companies that sold modified units for street/strip duty and racing; the most popular was built by B & M (whose "Hysro-Stick" was a ruaway hit in the marketplace,) but, there were several others (Bee-Line, Vitar, Quartermaster, C & O Hydro, and a few whose names I can't recall at the moment.) Though there were a lot of really fast Pontiacs (mostly,) in the "dual-coupling" period of time (1956-1963) virtually all of the HydraMatics in Gassers, Street Roadsters, Altereds and Modified Production race cars were of the earlier, "Dual-Range," single-coupling type. BTW, "Dual-Range" was a sales gimmick, nothing more. In 1952, They (G,M,) added another position to the shifter indicator; the letter "S", for "Super." Putting the selector in that position simply kept the transmission from up-shifting into 4th (top) gear, making the car more responsive. It could also be used as a braking device at hiway speeds. Big deaL... |
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Freddie has sent me several records sheets (thanks) and that is helping the effort. Trouble is, they are the cryptic "69 Chevy" style so you have to guess at model/engine. I am getting pretty good at it. But here is one for any gurus: June 1971 H/S Gary Moore-Carroll's Auto Service-Pierson Pontiac, Tulia, TX 114.06mph, Houma, LA May 71 So I am ASSUMING the car is a Pontiac but they don't even give the year. A 70 GTO 400/350 fits but that is a total guess. Web search discovered nothing on the car. Anybody recall? |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
It was a Firebird .
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Thanks!! Google just needed that one extra word: http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/...tiac-firebird/ Gary Moore of "Acre Maker" cars: 71 Firebird 455ho/335hp 12.22-114.06 h/s Ok let me push my luck a little, here is another mystery car: 65 Winternationals Corky Schroeder "Pontiac" (no year / model / engine) 14.23 at 98.57 E/SA Any ideas?? |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
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Found this entry list for the 1965 Winternationals, but just lists entry as a 1960 Pontiac. Number 760.
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Thanks Terry even that hint helps. Only 2 cars really fit, assuming there was no factoring yet: 60 Cat 9P wagon, 4360/363hp=12.01 or 60 Ventura HT, 3966/333hp=11.90 right on E/SA So I guessed the Ventura, with prepped engine & trans, down at shipping weight, 1st try in the Gonkulator said 13.91 at 98.72 Closer than usual for a 1st guess! I just cut down the traction G's a bit, that's all it took for 2.27 9.21 at 78.4 14.21 at 98.58 One of the fun things about re-visiting the vintage NHRA stuff with the Gonkulator is I can see about what 60ft time they must have run to jive with the rest of the combo and et/mph. 2.27 seems slow, but my daily driver cars Gonkulate to more than a 2.40 short time back in the 1970s based on the few vague scribbled timeslips I got back then. Sometimes only the ET was scribbled on the timeslip, not even the MPH! Tires were awful back then. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
I wonder when NHRA "pulled" the 4-spds out of the '57 Pass Cars...what most of the
owners did...and how much slower was the car with either a 3-spd stick...or the PG? |
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From what I have learned from this thread, the HAMB Junior Stock thread, and Boyce's Junior Stock book, a lot of stuff was legal in 1969 but not in 1970: * Chev Sedan Deliveries: * Hydramatic ok in 1969 * Had to run iron PG in 1970 From the data I have, it looks like folks lost a couple tenths at first, but as the 4000-stall converters caught on the difference almost disappeared. The Gonkulator runs I am computing show about the same. * Chev 57-58 * 4spd ok in 1969 * Had to run 3spd in 1970 * Again, maybe a couple tenths was lost though data is sketchy, I don't have any direct before & after. * The Gonkulator calculates that most of the loss was in the shifter - the 3-on-the-tree was a LOT slower, but even on the floor, the 1-2 shift is fast on a 4spd but slow on a 3spd (unless you get clever with the shifter as some did). |
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in Hot Rod Magazine....also recall a Delivery racer with "NHRA hates Sedan Deliveries" lettered on his car.... |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
How many times has NHRA made stupid decisions that cost racers a lot of money and time or worse. The answer is a lot ! Just abitrarily make rules or do away with entire categories. Everytime they did this they lost racers. This goes all the way back to the 1960's. Look where they are now....
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Speaking of allowed / not allowed: Thanks to the books I have, HAMB, and this thread!!!, I now have a growing database of stock class (and a few SS and FX) cars from 1950-1971, with the following numbers of et/mph pairs: 186 chev (the most of course) 106 ford (even a few non-427 cars) 80 mopar (about 1/3 hemis) 9 buick (yes, that many!) 30 olds 5 "amc" (includes Hudson, stude) Tedious but fun and revealing. 8 of these are the famous "stock" aka parts counter 383/343 combo of 1962. First run I have is from 1963, last from 1970. Was this combo ever disallowed, is it still called "stock class" today? 6 of the Fords are the 390/335 Comets of 1966. I thought I knew these cars pretty well but the story in this link surprised me- a lot of Ford gurus on that site and nobody disagreed: http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...47/View+Thread It says the 66 comet 390/335gt was allowed to run the much better aluminum 428 police intake AND functional cold air hood, and at least today, a bigger 735/780 Holley to replace the stock 600 Holley. Of course, Ford had a huge race parts bin, they just didn't use these parts from the factory. So its kind of like the 383/343 story. Anybody know if this is true, WHEN it was first allowed (NHRA disqualified the ram air GTO's at 66 Pomona so why would they allow aluminum intake Comets?), and WHY it only applied to the 66 Comet, and not all the other FoMoCo 390gt engines of 1966-1968? |
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Hi Dwight et al yes I am still working on my old 1960s NHRA compilation. There is another pair I am having trouble with, maybe you have a way to look up the NHRA weights and (Factored) HP for these cars back circa 1964-65. Two engines: * MaxWedge 426/425 - I am assuming this was not factored so stayed at 425 even though it made a bit more than that. * 427/425 HiRiser - I am using a factored HP of 465 just to make things fit but that is a guess. Today's NHRA factors the HiRiser between 420-460 hp depending on class. Reality was it was over 500 hp even back in 1964-65, so I wondered how NHRA factored it back then. Car weights: Mainly looking for what NHRA said back in 1964-65 about the LightWeight Galaxie (LWG). NHRA today has the 1963 LWG at 3320 lb, and the 1964 LWG at 3748 lb. The bodies are near identical, so that's over 400 lb of difference. I know some of the lightweighting parts changed but here is my logic in asking this stuff: * The meager real 1964-66 data I have on the 64 HiRiser LWG shows speeds of 121 mph for the auto trans (a doggy Lincoln unit) an 123-126mph for the stick car. That's getting up there near Thunderbolt speeds, so I wondered if the car was really as heavy as 3750 or if the old spec was different. * In Larry Davis' book, I know he is not a Ford buy but he says on pg99: "However, the LWG fell right into the extreme top of AA/S, where they not only were competitive, they dominated". Well, I get a W/P of 3748/465=8.06, which is a long way from being at the top of the AA=7.00-8.69 class. So either the 64 LWG spec was quite a bit lighter than 3748, or the factored HP was quite a bit more than 465, or the quote is just wrong. Wondered if the OLD NHRA weights and factored HP could shed any light on this. Thanks for your patience for those who read this far. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
Interesting points that you bring out. Here is what I have found in the 1970 Classification Guide
1963 LWG is the same as currently listed. 7.82 factor and 425hp. That makes the shipping weight 3324 for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. Probably the published weight to NHRA was 3325, but so goes rounding. I have seen the claimed shipping weight to be 3270 and 3300 in other publications over the years. An interesting fact about these cars is that the LW components were available on a wide variety of car models and body styles, from a 300 2dr sedan to a Galaxie 500 XL 2dr hdtp. 1964 lightweight component car. Only listed for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. The current factor of 8.93 and 420hp makes the shipping weight 3750 lbs. In the 1970 Class Guide, the factor is 8.33. If the power rating back then was 425, then the shipping weight is 3540 lbs. However, I have no documentation that tells be what the engine was rated back then. But, if you assume that the 3750 shipping weight is correct, then the power rating was 450 (3750 / 450 = 8.333...), which in probably the case, since the Thunderbolt has a power-to-weight factor of 7.13 in the old book, and that would have the shipping weight at 3208, very close to the 3206 calculated from today's Class Guide. |
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Thanks again Dwight that confirms what was said over on fordfe.com. Two folks over there had a 64 LWG and confirmed the car was 3750 with no driver, and could make that weight almost full of gas too. The old factor they remembered was 450-460hp (450hp in the 1973 book). The 460hp makes sense as an earlier factor, because using "only" 450hp would have put the Thunderbolt into AA/S, so NHRA probably rated the engine at 460hp deliberately just to put the Thunderbolt barely into S/S with the Hemi, so the big Galaxie stayed in AA/S. 450-460hp seems low for a prepped 427 HiRiser, but as I Gonkulate both engines, 425hp was equally low for a 426 MW Stage 3. Both of those are factored at about 80% of what they actually made as prepped, to turn the MPH they turned. I am finding that to be pretty much true, whether its the Tri-5 283s, the LM1, the z28, the 427 HR, the MaxWedge, etc, a "winning" combo engine typically was only NHRA rated at 80%-85% of what the prepped engine actually Gonkulates to. If the engine was overrated, of course the combo would not win. But even if it was rated "right on", it would still lose out - there were so many good combos way underrated (80%-85%) that they dominated most of the classes. |
Re: Need a couple more- Lookin for NHRA Stock Class Factors
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Dwight, I am still working away, up to 1967-70 now and struggling with all those 400 Pontiacs. Wondering if you have time to look up some factors circa those years. I'm assuming from the above that all the 400ra4, Firebird and Tempest, were factored to 380hp. I am using that 380hp also for the 1968-1/2 Ra2 cars since that "fits" the cars that ran and the engines were so similar. It seems from 1967-70, Pontiac had a zillion 400's. The stick and auto cars had different cams but the same rated HP. The Tempest and Firebird had the same engines (well at least when they were uncorked for NHRA with open headers & throttles) but the Firebirds were all rated lower. IN GENERAL, did NHRA up-rate all the Firebirds to their equal Tempest-engine ratings? (It seems the current guides do this but I wonder if they did that right away back in 1967-70 ?) eg 1967: Was the "325hp" Firebird RA1 up-rated to the "360hp" Tempest RA1 rating? (which I assume was left as-is at 360)? Were both the stick and auto cam engines left with the same rating? 1968: So, was the "335hp" Firebird RA1 up-rated to the "360hp" Tempest RA1 rating (which I assume was left as-is at 360)? Were both the stick and auto cam engines left with the same rating? 1968-70 Was the base "330hp" Firebird up-rated to the base "350hp" Tempest rating? Oddly, today's NHRA rates the 1968 Firebird base "330hp" at 338hp auto, 325hp stick, even though the auto engine had the smaller "066" cam. 1969: Was the "335hp" Firebird RA3 up-rated to the "366hp" Tempest RA3 rating? 1970: Was the "345hp" Firebird RA3 up-rated to the "366hp" Tempest RA3 rating? It seems like, unless the Firebirds were "uprated" to the Tempest ratings, why would anybody ever race a Tempest when the Firebirds has this built-in advantage? Sorry to be such a bother, trying to make the history as accurate as I can as I try to "Gonkulate" all these cars. |
Re: Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71
i have a copy of the record page from nat dragster from 1968--1972 if you want a pic. let me know-gary:)
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