Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Sorry Evan, I don't agree with any of it. MHO. Adding more complication that needs to be policed? Not going to happen. The new cars (all factory race cars) need to stay in FS. A, B, C, D, E and F or more conventional cars will have to spend 30-40 or more K trying to keep pace if they can..? I don't think so. Call it like it is.....

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I'm not sure NHRA has a real interest in those platforms either. As soon as you hang the term Stock onto a vehicle, it presents the same set of problems that exist at this point. Once again, the performance capabilities remain somewhat mundane, at least in comparison to the crowd drawing race classes. While fewer staff maybe needed simply due to a lack of vehicle diversity, it would still require some level of monitoring for rule veracity.Even Pro Stock is considered too conventional without even mentioning the fact that there are likely a dozen Camaro and a few Dart participant entries.Youthful competitors remain unlikely and unmotivated to participate in what today must be considered an esoteric, sanctioned hobby .

Sidling up to certain OEM manufacturers that are willing to participate ($) within the NHRA environment is the sole benefit.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I am currently building a J/stick Stocker.

If the autos and sticks are combined, then I will abandon the build and just turn it into a NMRA/NMCA/bracket car/index racer.
I've tied up enough money already in the P/Q Stocker.

As noted above....the probability of a heads up run goes up exponentially with combining them, especially in the "roll bar required" classes.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Very good point.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Get the indexes as close to what the ***** actually runs...then they would be lucky to fill the 65 field..a newb can never figure this cluster out...and I can't even begin to imagine guys complaining about how much it costs to build a top shelf "stocker" when they pulling it to the track in a 1/2 million dollar rig.

what the h am I missing?...I hope its still here by the time I get my junk out there

There is only 3 things I care about....what's my car weigh, what class does it fit in, and what's the national record

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I'm a stick shift racer and I'm all for combining the classes. Always thought the only thing that sucked about running a stick is the lack of heads up runs. The fastest car doesnt always win.People in the stands don't give a s**t about bracket racing,they don't understand what goes into all that.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Evan, just wanted you to know I wasn't totally against your ideas either. In fact Bret and I talked about this same issue a couple weeks ago, but more about NMCA bringing S & SS in as a viable NHRA alternative, or suggesting (at the very least) NHRA move FS into Comp (which we all know needs a shot in the arm). And like Bret said get that Cobra back out there again!!! :D

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

How many twenty or thirty somethings are racing Competition, Super Stock or Stock Eliminator today?
The sustainability of class racing is suspect and I believe short term solutions will be brief.
The NHRA could care less because their marketable product (T/F, F/C & P/S) currently sucks.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I have an 18yr old son who has been going to the races since he was days old. He's always lookin for cars in my class for heads up races and he loves class at the Natl's, could care less about the bracket racing part. When he brings friends they don't understand the bracket racing but always enjoy the heads up runs. These are performance based classes always have been and always should be.




Bret Velde
2003 SS/LA

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

There's more than you might think. I'm 45 and look around sometimes and feel a little old, Adam Davis, Brad Plourd, Kenneth Stott, Kaitlyn Adkinson, Allison Smyth, Bubba Linke, Justin Picillo, Doug Doll, Stephen Smyth,Joel Warren, Cody Phillips,Jeff Longhany..... I can go on and on, that's just off the top of my head and mainly division1 and 2. Oh Cooter Hildalgo and the Cummings boys.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I forsee 'Factory Stock' replacing pro stock. As far as regular stock, I believe it will eventually become one or two brackets, a slower bracket(11.0 and slower) and a faster bracket(10.99 and quicker). Rules would be tire size, no body mods(stock appearing) and corporate drivetrain. Any NA induction system, no throttle stops or transbrakes. In other words, since we have highly restrictive rules for our current 'bracket' racing, I see rules being loosened, cost might come down and ease of build would go up,indexes gone, national records gone, just build something that is stock appearing (easier for newbies) and bracket racing is the result. Same could happen to Super Stock, it might even be combined. I think it is a shame it would go this way, but just my opinion.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

National Dragster is no longer listing the 1/4 mile national records :(

7 issues into this year and none published yet.

Could be a sign of the future

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Mike, I was just getting ready to make a similar point.
I know Evan's heart is in the right place, but further diluting Stock with crate motors, LS 1 conversions, etc., is just sending it further down the road to Pro bracket.
Might as well just get it over with.
Any American car body, stock hood , glass windows, and no tires sticking out.
Call it Stock,if you want to, then just dial 'em in.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I'm sorry to see so many people down about Stock Eliminator. The car
counts at points meets range from good to really good to great depending
on the division. We are a financial asset to NHRA. The biggest problem
appears to be entering a National Event in our own neighborhood or
division. I would suggest our reps work on this PERIOD. We know the
rules, let's quit trying to change them for the better or self serving
reasons. The parking plans have allotment at every National Event for
24 T/F, F/C & P/S teams. They are getting 16 on a good day. That is
24 large spots available. The Alcohol classes get 20 x 2 reserved, at Houston they have 28 actual. 12 more medium spots available. Our S/S
brothers have 17 spots left. S/C has 8 left over, S/G 18 & Super Street
has 3. Top Sportsman has 14 Top Dragster 4 and T/F Harley 11.
That's 111 spots plus revenue for NHRA. At 30 days prior to closing of entry's, start allotting low entry classes spots to high entry classes. Do it again 2 weeks out. Gives Stock a chance to race closer to home. Sort
this out with NHRA now, the reps should not worry about anything else for the time being. If NHRA is not receptive, then we will know we are not wanted, we can then shut up, move on golf, race lawnmowers, or
whatever else we can find that is more fun. My opinion, your mileage
may vary. J.R. Haddad.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

What James said...it's not for everybody. I have twice as much in our stocker than in our best bracket car, complaining? No..having fun? Yes. Learning how to tune a Q jet among other things. ..but..if I see a car like mine show up legal with a 3K crate motor and a 650 Holley will mean I just wasted a bunch of money.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Funny, every time someone "comes up with an idea to save Stock Eliminator" it involves radically changing the character of the entire class.

It's "crate motors and GT" this week. Next week it's "no more heads up". Something else, the week after.

NHRA is what is hurting Stock Eliminator, if anything is, and "reinventing the class" is not going to help that.

Oh, and I remember quoting someone $22K for a Stock Eliminator 396/375 about 3 years ago, from all new parts, for a guy who didn't have a quart of oil or a box of spark plugs to start with. I was told that was high, even for all new aftermarket parts, and a 1.1 second under guarantee. I guess a $30K-$40K 396/375 Stock Eliminator engine includes a lot of cheating, and runs 1.5 under.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

The future of stock is pretty bright in D1. Also in D3 @ Bowling Green I have been there when we had a bump a few years back. 180 cars show up @ Indy for 128 spots, I don't see a problem with the future of the class. NHRA knows where their bread is buttered.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

You're right, Rod. Everyone's trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I Believe NHRA is Broken and is bullying around everybody who shows up to your game. Am I wrong?

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Total number of cars that collected points in the Lucas series in 2016:
Stock 1105
SS 793
SG 939
SC 1114

Not to knock SG and SC but they are certainly more suited to cross over to bracket racing. In other words, a guy that is building dual purpose car is more likely to build an SG/SC car than a Stock/SS car. Based on the numbers above, is Stock & SS dead? Doesn't look like it to me.

Jim Caughlin
SS 6019

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Guys, this thread has nothing to do with the future of Stock and everything to do with a guy trying to hustle some parts for the OEM's. It should be apparent to everyone by now that the new cars are not going to take over the car counts in Stock. So, the plan is now to just sell some very expensive parts to the Stock racers. It's also stupid to think all of us want to run in the 8's @ 170 mph. We don't!

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Dear Mark Yaccavone:

To answer your question.. YES !!
I suggested Bolt on Mods for the new Pure Stockers.
No modifications under the Valve Covers.
Stock MAF and TB and Pulleys.

Gears, Converters, Headers, Hi Perf mufflers, Suspension upgrades,
Pure Stock rules on DOT and Slicks.

All about keeping the inspection process clean and easy.
They are fast and see a pent up demand to race them in a Class Environment.
A lot of people have bought these cars....!

Asked many times how to get these new cars integrated into Pure Stock.
Many of these cars cost as much as our Stockers off the show room floor.
Would be drive the aftermarket for parts.

In fact willing to sponsor an ALL PURE STOCK race with new an Current Cars and put my money where my mouth is.
Could use a bit of advice how to plan, advertise and implement this.
Would use existing IHRA Rules.
Plus the ones I suggested for the new cars.

Would need volunteers to inspect the cars.
Again matching what IHRA would have to go through.
Exciting part there will be heads up races.
Truly believe there is a market to Classify and Race these cars.

I can see the heads up controversy now.
Remembering back in 1974..
Tommy Howes won Stock at 75&80 with his 454 Chevelle SS.
Tommy was challenged by Kenny Koonce and Leon & Eddie Maranian about how legal was Tommy's engine was. Offering him $200 back then to tear down his engine. What a conversation that was..!

Street Outlaws learned from us !!

Dan

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I have been following this with interest. There are two issues that are evident. First, whether you like it or not, heads up runs are a critical part of the value and attraction for Stock Eliminator. It is missing in just about every other sportsman eliminator definition, yet it is core to the idea of all forms of racing. The majority of race fans and participants find head to head competition much more exciting than handicap breakout racing, and it is easier to sell and understand. Secondly, while it seems that the common opinion is that NHRA makes a bunch of money from Stock eliminator participation, if you talk to them they state the opposite. We do not have hard facts to support either position. It would seem that if Stock Eliminator were such a cash cow, NHRA would put more effort into supporting it. But the evidence seems to point to a different reality. I think it is time to have the facts come out into the open and see what the real situation is. A healthy Stock Eliminator program will be better served with cooperation from both sides in this "association".

In reference to the first point, combining stick and automatics as well as eliminating half pound breaks will help create more heads up races. I know that will rub the wrong way because it threatens some protected corners that racers have found and will erode some racers' little fiefdoms they have built, but it will vastly increase the percentage of heads up runs.

In regard to the second point, trust from both sides in large quantities is the commodity that will be required to make it work.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

..Also , sticks and automatics are already combined in FS, so why not make everyone else "conform" ?
LS1 conversions are very popular now with the magazines and magazine types.
However, bolting in a junkyard 5.3 ,and sticking twin turbos on it, is not what we do here.
Would any of these guys want to get inside an LS1 and spend the money it takes to be competitive? Or, do we need to give them a hp break to bring them in?
Besides, there are plenty of LS1 combos that can be raced right now.
Plenty more that could be added that are "Stock".

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I applaud your efforts, Dan, but I just don't see the interest, starting at a local level.
You tell some of these guy that you can't bolt on a bigger throttle body, and they look at you kinda funny, and you've lost them already.
My experience anyway.

Several of the independent S/SS groups allow Pure Stockers, but I never see them there.
You did a good job for the Northern Class Nationals, but I don't know where you're going to go from there.
NHRA doesn't want any more classes.They don't even want the cars they have now, at nationals.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Thanks Mark !!

Hey I am sponsoring the Pure Stock Challenge with IHRA this year..
Build a Pure Stocker !!

Challenge you for a whole real American $1 :D

D

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Dwight Southerland nailed it for me. Most drag racing fans love heads up racing and just don't get handicap starts. One of the reasons handicap racing was started was to get more drivers participating. But from a spectator perspective, it can be pretty boring.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Factor when sitting in the stands anywhere within reasonable proximity of the starting line, you have no idea of who won the handicap race without a visual indicator. I have a tough time determining who won a race and sometimes they aren't all that close.

Then comes the explanation that while that car looked to be the winner, in fact, the driver ran too well and thus the opposing vehicle was awarded the victory for not getting to the finish line first ...........and not running quite so well, although within a predetermined and self imposed boundary.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

James,
Thanks for your reply, I'm happy to learn of the new generation of class racers and hope it continues to grow.
Frank

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

As far as the fans understanding handicapped races, I think the super categories have gone a long way to fixing that for us.

People are already used to the idea that in Super Gas, for instance, the goal is to run close to 9.90 without going under, and that running under the index is a disqualification.

It's a very small step from there to understand that in Stock each car has its own "index" written on it in shoe polish.

A lot of it is a matter of having good announcing. While it could be better at times I think generally the announcing at national events is pretty good on those counts.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

It was done to make even the lowly V8s competitive. Not just the ZL1s Tunnelports and Hemis

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

More cars = more drivers.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Maybe I'm missing something but, inspecting cars is one thing; determining port volume, valve size, compression ratio, cam lift and duration, etc., is quite another. To paraphrase an old axiom, "The more rules there are, the more cheating there's going to be".

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

I'm thinking that you have to be over 50 to even appreciate a heads up run. What percentage of NHRA's audience cares about a 428CJ vs. 440 6BBL (or whatever) race when they don't even know what they are?

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Im thinking most on here are underestimating the spectators at these races. At the national meets I'd say 90% could tell you all about the brand of cars they like, while at a divisional, 100% know cars. The ones that haven't a clue are just tag alongs to the person who does. I hoping Stock/SS last a long time, this is what I go to watch, the rest can go jump. It doesn't take much brains to tell who wins or looses and I personally like seeing a fast car chase down the slower car and try to get the win. Like a Cheeta trying to catch an Impala, sometimes he does and sometimes he don't.
Mike

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

You know I cannot help that!
But there is still a huge limit to what constitutes cheating.
A builder who pushes past those limits get caught.
Amazing how the xHRA's manages to get so many fast cars pass tech.
You just do the best you can do!

Other than heads up runs in handicap racing it's mostly a drivers race.

Life is way too short to worry about what you call cheating.
Not to digress here.
I have lost about a dozen relatives, my dad, friends, their parents in the last few months...

Just go out and have fun!

D

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Where are those more cars and drivers?
They are buying them and no place to run them except brackets.

D

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Wow, really beating all the dead horses here aren't we?

Locally S/SS is doing great and has grown each year for the last 5-6 especially. As far as understanding handicap racing, coleydog nailed it when he said "Like a Cheeta trying to catch an Impala".
Not sure why people think its so confusing, one car leaves first and the other chases it down. To think people in the stands can "see" a guy cross the stripe by half a fender and break out and then not understand how he didn't win is bull****. Like everyone, you watch the cars and as they get to the stripe, the light comes on telling you who won.
Cheeta chases the impala and when it pounces after running it down, the light either comes on that he got it, or the light comes on in the impala's lane saying the cheeta didn't get it.

As far as the rest of it, get all the cars from '96 on classed like was mentioned before and you will see more participation. Go on kijiji or craigs list and buy a 2005-2010 whatever for cheap and build a car. Right now you have to look for a 20+ year old car to start from and here in the rust belt they are few and far between.

Like others have also said...your mileage may vary. lol.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

As a guy building a "slow" car I sure hope the Class racing doesn't go away. The car is taking a little longer, and costing a little more that I planed but I cant wait to compete at my 1st Div 7 race. I can only hope things change for the better.

Re: The Future Of Stock
 

Robbie go to a local S/SS race and get the car sorted out and you'll see there are lots of cars. Go to a div race and you'll see a difference, then go to a national and it'll be totally different again. (in everything, not just car count)

Edit: Here's a link to a thread in 2007 complaining about how bad nhra is treating the sportsman and that the end is near.
http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=629

One quote is

"NHRA= NOT HELPING RACERS ANYMORE"


Yup, it was going on long before that too and in 10 years people will still be saying "well, this is it, S/SS is done, nhra doesn't want us"