Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Something else that hasn't been mentioned ... We bracket raced for a decade before buying a class car ... One thing that we did with our bracket car from the first spring race, till the last one in the fall.... Don't touch it ..! Run the valves, change the oil and race it ... Every single race ...Week end, and week out .. Then we tried class racing ...The true "class" racing method.... Being fast.. .Fast as your wallet will allow anyways .. Now it seems every single race we show up at, we have a different car under us ... Different carbs,convertors, transmission gears, camshafts, rear end gears, fuels, timing curves , fuel maps, and on and on ... Plus the weight of the car changes dramatically because of the changing air density,as your trying to not get your combo hit .... And lets throw in a smaller throttle body plate and restrict some air flow ... Its just not the same deal.. There's no consistency, and that's what bracket racing is ...consistency ....Of course it can be done ,but if your striving to keep your car fast, and continuing to get faster... its certainly harder .

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Agree with Jeff. "Class racers" work on their combo to maintain / improve performance on a regular basis. Some guys with a legal class car go in with a bracket mode mindset. Big difference.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Of the two combos described above, whitch one will get you to the winners circle easier? Are you there to win or just a pi$$ing contest.
Mike

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I don't see bracket racers as "performance " incentive .....for the most part they put a car together , or buy it , and let the cars performance take a back seat to perfect lights and dial ins. In other words , whatever it runs is good enough. Just dial it in.
I have a "disdain" for bracket racing.............always have , always will.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Everybody goes to the track for a different reason. Personal performance goals is no less of a cause then trying to win a million dollar race. All in the eye of the beholder

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

What Todd said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I am no class racer, just a lowly bracket racer, but I love what you guys do. I have often wondered and asked some people why more s/ss guys don't change engines and come race with us more. I do understand that it would be hard on your performance engine, but there is nothing like hits at the tree and seat time to improve part of your racing program.

The more you race the better you get even if the performance of your car changes. I won 3 races in a row at the end of this year running 5.80s 1/8 mile, then 9.30s 1/4 mile, then 6.0s 1/8 mile leaving in high gear. It really helps my driving overall.

Heck, Ed Wright comes out and races with us once in a while and I know he hates 1/8 mile racing. We have a few other guys that do come out once in a great while and I love seeing new cars and faces. There are a lot of guys on here that I'm sure could teach us bracket guys about performance building, but I think hanging around and racing with us might yield better driving skills for some. JMO

I hope nobody takes offense at a bracket racer (who loves class racing) weighing in on here.

Curtis

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

If you are in one of the more populated classes like A,B and C or even G,H and I you might find yourself in it both ways or else you might be in the way!

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Curtis I wouldn't say anyone is lowly, just a racer of the format you choose. Alot of Stock and SS guys were bracket racers like myself who just wanted something different or grew up around class racing. I try to attend 4 or 5 of the local races with my stocker when time allows, I have 2 small children and if it wasn't for wanting to spend more time with them I would be at alot more local races. Many times when I go to the local events I get alot of questions about my car and that is a good thing but there alot of combos that are so far on the edge I can't blame some guys for not wanting to do it. There are certainly alot tough local guys to race against but it certainly ain't no easier against the guys running class. There are alot of hitters everywhere. One thing I think improved my driving more than anything was running the super classes, I think it made my top end driving a whole lot better.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Heads-up runs are part of class racing. (and as noted in another thread, I had advocated for years for things like combining sticks and automatics, consolidating weight breaks, etc., but ironically it was the "class racers" who ran away from any proposals that would potentially result in more heads-up runs.) That being said, you're right, in that there are FAR more dial-in match-ups than there are heads-up runs. We took our lumps (heads-up G/SA first round at Maple Grove), and dished them out (SportsNationals win). That's racing. The thing is, it didn't matter if we were -.35 under or -.75 under, we were going to lose that heads-up run.

You've made the car faster over the years, not because you're ever going to be the fastest in the class, but because you *wanted* to. I've done the same with the Volare. I've worked as my time and budget allows to make the car quicker and more consistent -- not because I'm under any illusion that I'd ever win Class, but because I enjoy it, and it makes me more competitive.

See above. Even in populated classes, there are far more dial-in runs than heads-ups. We ran F/SA and G/SA in NHRA.

While their performance goals are different than class racing, today's bracket cars have very little in common with the run-what-you-brung, yeah-that's-good-enough-just-put-a-dial-on-it cars of yesteryear. There is a massive amount of science, technology, and strategy involved -- and some apply concepts from class racing as well. Bracket racers don't just magically go .00 and dead-on. It takes work.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

If you have such a disdain for bracket racing, how do you stand being at the track with bracket racers?

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Neither of the responses answered my question, which type of car setup will carry you the farthest in this racing format?
Mike

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Obviously a small tire car with high horsepower is not a good choice for a bracket car. A dragster or roadster is actually the best choice. Low HP with a big tire is best. A super stock would be a better set up than a stocker chassis wise but the engines are a high RPM with light weight components set up that does not have the longevity needed for every weekend bracket racing. Most successful big dollar bracket races allow the use of a trans brake and delay box. Stockers are not allowed to have a brake in their transmission so it would not be as easy to add a delay box to a stocker as it would be to a super stock car for a big money bracket race.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Many bracket racers have discovered that's not necessarily the case, and have switch to a tire like the M/T Pro Bracket Radials. There are guys going mid to high 5's in the 1/8th on a 28x10.5" PBR, both footbraking, and off the transbrake. I switched my car from the 32x14 Stiff bias to the 29.5x10.5 PBR's, and the car is significantly better. They require little burnout, you can't kill the sidewalls like a bias tire, they print tickets like mad, and most folks are getting 300+ runs on a set. Best tire I've ever had, hand down.

Also, a lot of races separate doorcars from dragsters, which levels the playing field somewhat. While dragsters have a visibility advantage, there are plenty of doorcars that will print tickets right with a dragster.

Yes, but don't discount a Stocker chassis. A number of bracket racers utilize CalTracs and other Stocker setups with a great deal of success.

While there are certainly more Top Bulb races (too many in some regions), there are also a large number of big money Footbrake and No-Box events throughout the country. There are a lot of options for different people. All depends on what you want to do.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I read all the posts and arguments about brackets vs class racing and a few days ago on post #39 on pg 4 I put down what I thought were all the differences and things that were the same looking for some Info to clear up for me for this season starting to go class racing after years of bracket and .90 racing
I stated my opinion and asked were I was right or wrong. I did not get 1 single reply which surprised me after reading pages of arguments for both and the differences in each, I guess most races don’t like the idea that they are not very different at all.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I believe it does answer the question, some of these maxed out combos are not as consistent as the middle of the road guys. I would prefer the more consistent one myself. Like I said though if you show up at a race with a .50 under A/SA where I've seen 9 or 10 entered, your odds will be slim without some luck and ladder dodging.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Nope not much difference at all, slap one together and come out and play. If you don't like it you can always bracket race it.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I understand what you're saying, but how many of these top class cars show up to every race except Indy? or divisional meets for that matter? Still trying to learn the ins and outs here, how does the ladder dodging work? When I show up I don't want to be dead meat on a stick.
Mike

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

"...how does the ladder dodging work?..."

I assume it means you purposely run a slower or quicker qualifying time, to put yourself on the same side of the ladder with the faster guys in your class. That way, some of 'em will get beat before the late rounds, therefore lessening your chances of having a heads up race, with a quicker car.

In the Pro classes, for round 1, I think #1 runs #16, #2 runs #15, #3 runs #14, and so on.

But I've never bothered to see how they set the Stock & SS ladders, at div & National events. So, I too am interested in seeing it explained here.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

From the bracket side.

Curtis

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

It really depends on the area you're racing in. Some divisions seem to have a lot of cars in 1 or 2 classes like for instance division1 has alot of really fast A and B cars and G and H cars as well. Like was said previously ladder dodging is just trying to get yourself on a side or corner away from the really fast cars qualifying in a particular position. If I was running I for example and there was 3 or 4 cars there really fast qualified at the top of the sheet I could put myself at the bottom and avoid a potential heads up for at least the first round. Sportsman ladder is different than a pro ladder. You can Google sportsman ladder and get examples of different car counts.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

It's a struggle...........:D.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I find it kinda strange with the state of Class Racing and the area of the US you live in that you feel this way.... Can't we all get along ?

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Thank you,
Mike

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Finally, a truthful answer on here.....LOL.....

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Mainly lack of time because of work is why I don't go and screw up the points at the local tracks . The big money races can be fun. Jason sorry to hear your out of the seat for sometime but its for reason and most of us have been there . See you at Hersey .

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Bobby Fazio has some software to assist you with how to get advantaged placement on a ladder. See the link...

http://www.collegevilleautorepair.co...addersoftware/

Also several tracks (for example Sacramento) has a resources tab on their website where you can print out all the conceivable ladders. Think some of the top racers play the ladder?...you betcha.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

For me and my car, answers 1 & 7 fit best.

1 because with a 15sec car, there's a big difference between the payouts of Stock vs the Sportsman Bracket. Of all the high dollar bracket races I read about, I don't recall them including cars that run in the 15's , and if they do it's at tracks more than 500 miles from me. Although I race against Pro Et quick cars in Stock, my car isn't quick enough to race in that bracket, because of the et break for Pro Et being I believe 13.99.

7. Where I chose to live, half if not most of the bracket races in Az., are done in the late afternoon to night time. I prefer racing in the daytime, but although I had a very good bracket racing career while living in Denver, I moved here to Phoenix for the weather, my health, and to be closer to tracks that hold Stocker races.

Someday I will attend a bracket race or two, because the competition is just as good as class racing, and I could use the extra competition to sharpen up my racing skills. However, for my budget right now, it's class racing only.

If NHRA drops class racing, I will modify my car to run 13's, so I can race in Pro Et, by canning the MFI/computer and replacing it with either a 350 or 500cfm Holley, on a older carburetor manifold, or an Edelbrock (if they even make manifolds for my V6 engine).

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

How will dumping EFI to go to a carburetor make that much difference in ET?

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

We both know Gary is mistaken, don't we Darrel?

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I wouldn't consider myself an expert tuner but I don't see how going to a carburetor can improve ET over a properly tuned EFI. I also understand EFI will not out perform a well tuned carburetor as far as power. After a year of EFI experience I don't care to work on another carburetor. I just put a Sniper EFI on my 427 BBC 67 Chevelle ET car. After install my first start consisted of reaching through the window and turning the key only. That's never happened with a cold start before and not always with a warm engine either. I'm not expecting a quicker ET. I'm hoping for more consistency.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Because unlike cars like yours that had a V8 baseline to tune from, there was no such blessing upon my 60 degree V6 to tune from, so that's one BIG difference! I recall when the FI classes were created, they were instantly dominating the A-H classes in Stock. Since I'm not well versed in computer tuning and I know the awesome power produced by the (especially 500cfm) Holley carbs, tuning one of them would be easier than figuring out the multitude of adjustments needed to make my car run quick enough to run Pro!

What I might otherwise do if/when the funds allow, is take my car to a shop I know of here in southeast Phoenix that specializes in tuning computer controlled cars. I'm sure it'll cost a pretty penny, but they'll wake up my computers set-up to where I may not need to do the above, and it'll be Stock legal with or without Stock Eliminator.....once I get the funds look out!!!!

So nice try, but I'm not kidding....

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

It doesn't matter to me what you do but I'd sure think getting someone to tune your car as is would be much less expensive and have better results than changing to a carburetor.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Gary,
The car should run 13.90's in DF/S.
It's a better car than ours. Ours ran 13.90's
Your car is about 900 pounds lighter.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Yeah Darrel, it's about time you achieve something with that Chevelle! :D

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Don't expect one to run faster with EFI.

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Gary, I'm not sure what baseline V8 tune your talking about. With factory computers, as your car came with, the "baseline tune" is in the computer. That is what we begin with when using the factory computer. I don't remember, does that engine have a distributor?

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Haha! Couldn't agree with you more Darrel. Must be starting to like that Holley system. I know after a year of playing with mine on my turbo street car. My stocker that's being converted back to a street car is now getting a CNP conversion with a Holley HP and if I could afford to scrap my super stock engine combination I'd be building something using EFI as well. I'd much rather play around tuning on the laptop then pulling carbs apart and changing things.

Rick

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

I'm sure you're correct, but given my level of mechanics training was from back in the 70's when FI didn't exist first of all, and the Tech school I went to then was a 9 month long joke that wasn't funny, the best thing that came out of that now defunct tech school was a tool box (that was stolen from me by some low-life(s) at Bandimere Speedway back on July 3, 1993)!!!!

My level of mechanics training thus didn't include modern day computer systems, and as I said earlier, if my system had a baseline to tune off of, I'd be a lot better off than I am, but I tune by trial and error, and if I make an adjustment that makes the engine sound more lively, then I unplug the computer and go up to make a run to see if it helped and by how much. I said what I did about the carburetor, because I was better skilled at adjusting points, timing, and changing jets, than I am about acceleration enrichment, and other adjustment stuff like that. Furthermore, Accel no longer manufactures the Calmap system that I bought back in the mid-90's, so getting the tuning software isn't possible anymore.....if you know someone who has that particular software, clue me in so I can get a disk of it for my laptop?

However, I also recall saying that I could (when money allows me), take my car to this shop in Queen Creek, Az., that could possibly tune it up for me. I have always been better at driving than wrenching anyway (unless it's easy stuff like plugs, wires, and oil). I see how much quicker the Pro-Stockers are running with FI over carbs, but they also have computer savvy mechanics (which I don't, and am not)! Thus I'll deal with the hand I have until the funds come my way to visit that shop.

Mark your car runs so great inspite of its extra 900lbs over my car, because you're a sharp tool in the shed, that I'm not! Perhaps if you or Billy Nees were tuning my car, it would be as quick as yours, but you're not. Thus I'll race my car as is until my budget allows me to invest in those items. The economy and wages as opposed to the cost of living aren't as good today as they were 20yrs ago, and that's the last time I had $1k + to invest in things like the Calmap, and even building the car from street to how it is now! I recall racing was a lot less expensive then than it is now, so less money for that and things like custom headers (that I know would help my car by nearly .4 sec), but again $1k plus for headers for a 6cyl, when V8 street headers are less than half of that? I'll deal with what I have and continue to be one of the racers still racing, until or unless class racing goes the way of Modified Eliminator (or I win a 5-6 digit PCH prize)...which I hope it never will!!!!

Re: Bracket Racing vs Class Racing
 

Ed I'm not referring to factory computers, I'm referring to the aftermarket computer systems such as the Accel Calmap system I purchased back in the mid-90's. With my factory computer system, I recall putting a 350 V8 chip in my factory box, and from idle to 2400rpm, my engine sounded so strong, that I could've had my car running AF/SA back in the 90's! However, the set-up of that chip from 2400 on was too much for my engine, so it didn't work. :( I sent over $100 bucks to a computer chip company that I asked to burn me a chip that would make my engine as lively over 2400rpm's on as that factory 350 truck V8 chip did, and I'd be happy as all get out! They couldn't do it, so I scrapped my factory computer and gave the Calmap a try. Thanks to computer savvy people such as Woodro Josey, V8 FI racers had a baseline to tune their computers off of, but there was no-one to set such a baseline for engines like mine....that's what I was talking about.