Re: horsepower welfare
 

Thanks Bob, I was starting to think that maybe I am just a conspiracy theorist.
If I'm invited to Brunch with one of the west coast T.D. members, do I bring the wine?

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Bring your own wine and cookies..............don't know what's in their cookies!!! lol

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Cookies, someone has cookies. I thought this thread was about welfare.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA mislead, misunderstood.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Yes welfare cookies

Re: horsepower welfare
 

The combination in question is an IRON HEAD 440 4bbl rated at 350 hp not 345 hp like you are looking at. Everyone can throw darts at Mopars but I can write a list until next week on how stock eliminator has been diluted and softened. Take a good look before you say any other brand has not been given plenty of gifts too. It took 20 years for some of the combinations to get all the horsepower off, ie 426 street wedge.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Here's a nice 7 qt. capacity oil pan that's legal for BB Mopars in Stock Eliminator. I wonder how and why it got approved?


http://www.cfrperformance.com/CHRYSL...cfr-7117-z.htm

Re: horsepower welfare
 

The same way this one got approved for the early Chevy II in Stock. Stock eliminator welfare.

www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/20211/10002/-1

Re: horsepower welfare
 

The FE's was dragging the pans on the ground before anyone else I think

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Billy you should know better than to ask that of Ron. He is in his own world and no mortal man can understand the brain that resides in that head of the "Ortizmo The Great Thinker"! Jim

.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

You are my hero! Now if you could just put a 360 in the Dart and get taht family refactored down about 25 HP I would appreciate it (bigley) greatly! Jim

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I can't recall anyone even running the 440 4bbl before it was dropped to 350 quite some time ago.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

The " Private Lee " ran with a 440 and AVS carb in E/SA.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Paul, please enlighten me, you don't have to write a list until next week but maybe give me 5 minutes and show me just what combos were given aluminum heads that never came with them, aluminum intakes that never came with them and what combos were given more HP. back in one shot than than some of the BB Mopars? Not even the 302 2V FFFords.
And while we're at it, can you please take just 2 minutes to explain just when the rule covering aluminum heads changed to make the aluminum heads a totally different combo instead of a replacement for a rare/ hard to find original iron casting at a 10 HP penalty?

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Billy,
The FE FFFords was probably the start of the downfall of pure stock vehicles. Aluminum intakes, aluminum heads, big oil pans, paper cams, rocker arms and on and on. I was knee-deep in this with my Cobra Jet Torino with a fresh engine off the Dyno with a cam that was 40 thousandths small overnight. This was all over two decades ago.

Long before the 383 Mopars I remember a 62 Vette being made a player overnight. Now there are combinations slowly becoming killers that no one even notices. Watch out for things like stick iron headed cobra jet mustangs.

I can't agree more with the idea we will dilute the sport into stock appearing from the outside bracket race.

I would be more than happy to make all my cars "stock" and start checking overlap, valve spring pressure, stock transmissions etc but that time has passed.

Send me the Nova for two reasons. I like the car and I will use the rules given us to get it to the correct horsepower. As much as you hate the rules given us in short time it would be where you want it.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Here we are bickering between the brands like old times while NHRA is trying to do the opposite with generic Pro Stockers. I love it
Mike

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I knew that you were going to bring up the FE FFFords. So way back in ancient history, the FFFord guys were having lunch with the Tech guys and now the Mopar guys are? At least all of the Stocker FFFords are still carrying a HP penalty of some sort for using the replacement heads. So I guess that we'll just keep repeating the mistakes of history until we are history.

I'll give you the 62 Corvette but how many were actually built? It's still apparently not THAT good a combo for one reason or another. And it didn't have a replacement aluminum head until last week and it will probably never have a replacement intake.

And speaking of intakes, how were the LD4B and LD340, intakes that were advertised as aftermarket manifolds in a Chrysler Hustle Stuff Parts catalog approved for/as Stock? And using the same premise, why haven't the B/RB intakes that are advertised in the same catalog not approved for/as Stock?
I think the only combo being built faster than B/RB Mopars is 302/2V FFFords.

I DO believe you when you say that you would make all of your stuff "Stock" again but has the time passed? Or has the time come for the Racers to start insisting that the Tech Dept. start doing their job again?

I like all of my toys and as far as the Nova, I appreciate your offer to "get it to the correct horsepower" but it's just fine the way it is. I know how to play the "game", I just won't PLAY the "game". I don't want to take all of the challenge away.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Give it a few years and that 302 2V intake will get superceded by an Edelbrock Super Victor and the Motorcraft two barrel gets superceded by half a split Dominator.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Divide and conquer:)

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Wanna talk about Blatant gifts?

Powerglide =TH200

Let's give all combos an extra forward gear. LOL you guys

Re: horsepower welfare
 

That rule was actually changed because the early Drag Paks where powerglide only combos and the Drag Pak owners wanted to be able to put 3-speeds in there Drak Paks to be competitive with the COPO and Cobra Jets.thanks for the gift Mopar

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I'm not positive but I believe Charlie Smith ran a 1969 Dart with 440 with Steve Wann when it was 375hp.
Still don't know why 440 4bbl cast iron head has so much attention. What I see there are about 5 cars total. They surely don't dominate in B, C or D. The others are running Aluminum heads. Way out of my league to afford. personally I didn't want to have to run one with my 45lbs heavy weight break. It did seem foolish that aluminum head engine was getting a better break. has this combination received any extras over the years that I missed? I could use some. My 340 that is sitting on the engine stand is laughing at me.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Oh yah and the one car I used to enjoy watching use all of the track. Ernst Topping C/S 440 Dart

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I'm pretty sure Toppings Dart was a 340. C/S and G/S do look similar...LOL!

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I can promise you Topping's Dart Convertible was a 440 for many years. It was changed to a 340 much later and remains a 340 the last I knew of it.

Look at Topping's Number in the picture 1440 racing GTS340 -- Paul Haszlauer's Aspen in the early 1980's/.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Sorry, I must stand corrected.. I only knew of the cars later history.. 50 lashes!

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I was going to post the same thing last night Rick, must have been WAY before our time....I do know that Ernest sold the car to Jim Mango......One thing is for sure, I will NEVER dispute Paul Wong....what a great guy......

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Ernie worked as a machinist for Bill Ceralli Competition in beautiful Paterson NJ when Bill was our engine builder and also Jerry Stein's.
Ernie's Dart convertible was a C/S 440 4 speed for many years before giving in to a G/S 340.
Ernie is a very cool dude who was a very good friend at the time.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Holy Cow!! and I thought the witness protection program was still in effect. That was my best friend Stephen McGrath who does or did IHRA driving my car. I had one heck of a time getting that car built. I thought when I started the car had to be original. So that is an original "L" code 1979 Aspen. Toppings car is still around. Don't know or remember the person's name. #1453 G/S. great picture. Thanks!

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Charlies car was a 1969 Dart with 440/375. He had to use a 906 style head in Stock. BTW he did set the B/SA record.
In my 1968 (or 69) we can use a different cast iron head in Super Stock that is not legal in stock.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Steve Wann is very gifted and has a few more resources than the average guy like myself. He usually sets the bench mark in every car he owns. I am using an older Steve Wann engine that Paul Wong let me borrow and Charlie's # 2 0r 3 906 heads.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

#2 or 3 906 head? Please enlighten me. An avenue I'm looking at.
Mike

Re: horsepower welfare
 

All the heads are great and done by Don Little usually. Just some perform a little better than others on a Dyno. You have your best (#1's) and so on. Hopefully Don Little can find room for me this spring to get a freshen up on them. I have to say coming from a 340/360 all my racing life. The 440 is way cool. I have to learn its ways. Lower RPM engine. I ran it at the end of the year thanks to Paul Wong and enjoyed it very much.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Have you thought of using the aluminum heads?
I think I have 4-5 #1s, maybe 12 of the others. I can't see the difference but maybe on the flow bench I will. Love to have one that's been done to copy.
Mike

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I think there were 3 different BB steel heads. The old 906 was one, and the last head , the unleaded seat heads, and later I think the stage 5 heads were made legal. Jim Hale bought all the stage 5 and probably still has some. I got a set from him for SS before the aluminum heads were there. Before that the heads had a big intake and small intake except for the 67 single 4 bbl which had the bigger exhaust. Billy,, do you honestly think anyone could make tech vary from the road they are on? We are all like bad kids who in reality want the teacher to whack our knuckles with a wooden Coca Cola ruller. But all too often the whackee gets mad and sues for tech abuse. I think lower the hp on all of em. You know the new cars aint getting no help, and they are a few select who need a little love, maybe some love and affection. Problem solved. And I have no idea where I dug all this up or why.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Not thinking much about Aluminum Heads. Am thinking about hanging up the helmet though.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Of course I do. They can be bought and sold just like politicians. They're human.

Mr. Jeff, you're old but you're not THAT old. You can surely remember the little angels in class who always sucked up to the teacher, never got in trouble and always got what they wanted. I wasn't one of them, were you?

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Most of the sucking up was close to the suckee source so more suction was on them than other parts of the country.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Jeff & Billy, those were called Do Bees and the others were called Don't Bees. How many of you out there were Don't Bees.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA not to be confused with the brothers.

Re: horsepower welfare
 

I couldn't agree more!

Re: horsepower welfare
 

Ron, I have no idea what you're talking about. I know nothing about "apiculture".