Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

If it's in B/SA it's a Camaro, but not a COPO. And a Challenger but not a Drag Pak. OEM street cars like those should be what the complainers want, or are those somehow bad too?

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Not sure what you're getting at. I'm the OP, and I very much like the idea of an A/SA '98-'02 LS-powered Camaro. The COPO...not so much...

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Al Cordas car is a copo built car

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I quoted the person I was replying to, and I guess maybe there was a misprint and it wasn't actually in B/SA. There have been a few cars like that though, 08-up that aren't a CJ, COPO, or Drag Pak. Do you have the same like for those as you do the older ones, or are they somehow different? If so, why?

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

In my opinion, Stockers should have a VIN number.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

So get rid of all those 80s Cutlass and every other car that was built from a body in white through the years? What advantage does the lack of a VIN give them? I know of multiple CJs that have a VIN as they were built from salvage cars, I'm sure the same for some COPOs and Drag Paks. Do they get to stay since they have a VIN?

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Brother, I'm home sick today, and simply trying to express my opinion- not looking for an argument.

My "VIN" response was an attempt to provide a simple answer- I didn't realize that there were Stockers built from bodies in white.

I'm just not a fan of allowing cars in stock using combinations that were never available for road use- Camaros that come with Ford 9" rear ends, V10/Powerglide Challengers, and so on...that's just silly.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I wake up everyday grateful that there are places like Nhra, Nmca, Buckeye stock/SS to race and could care less what is in the lane next to me.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

The package cars exist because NHRA did not have a way for late model production cars to compete with the older cars. The package car rule was the only way to get the manufacturers involved in Stock and Super Stock 10 years ago.

The initial low HP ratings on the cars were because there was no place else for them to go, at the time it was 7.5lbs class for AA. We had to rate the cars low to have a natural class. Once all 3 OEM's got involved things changed.

As the OEM's have improved the efficiency of the engines there are not the same gains to be had as older combinations. A 2.3L EcoBoost Mustang is rated at 310hp, to be a top flight Stocker it needs to make about 525hp and with stock turbo it won't get there. NHRA will now accept late model combos with slightly reduced HP ratings to try and even the field. If they were to make the rating a little more desirable, say 20-25% off the rated HP it would take a chunk out of the package car sales. I think that would be ok because the package cars are evolving but I worry that it's without a plan as to where they want to go, instead everyone's watching as to where they will land.

Having late model cars in Stock has many benefits. They are easier to get new parts for, those parts are readily available at the local dealer (John Calvert forgot to latch his hood and had a new hood and windshield that afternoon from the local Ford dealer). Tech should be easier because photos, specs, prints, and hardware are all readily available from the manufacturer. And depending on the part I think a late model car is economical, core engines, body panels, etc are cheap. Salvage title cars are plentiful after every natural disaster.

The package cars made up something like 40% of Indy last year so I doubt they are going anywhere, and they bring manufacturer and contingency sponsor involvement so there is upside. IMO if someone wanted those cars out they would have to die a natural death through late model production cars being more accepted. It seems unlikely Stock will return to a time when the field is dominated by and 60-80's cars.

I know this isn't popular, and I'm putting my flame suit on, but I think an alternative is to implement nostalgia or vintage classes. There's always talk about getting the package cars out of Stock, why not look to give the vintage iron their own classes and seek new sponsors and contingency for that? This could be a an opportunity for greater exposure and payouts. There are huge vintage markets out there and none of those manufacturers are sponsoring NHRA. If the goal is to have a better showcase for the 60-80's Stockers there are alternatives.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Hey!!!!! Dwight, Mark, do ya think maybe Jesse's on to something here? Does that number seem familiar? Maybe Jesse should read the letter that Dwight (that sliver-tongued devil) sent to the NHRA about a half-a-dozen times. Maybe Jesse can get a positive response!

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I'm not looking for an argument either, trying to figure out just what it is you're after.

So based on your latest response, you'd also be against all those old Chevrolets running a 3 speed trans that only came with a Powerglide originally? Putting a 12 bolt rear in a car that never came with one? Putting a metric 200 in a car that never came with one? Putting a solid axle under a Corvette? What about all the aftermarket cylinder heads are you against those?

I want to make it clear, I am not advocating for any of this. I'm just trying to figure out what you are advocating for.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

FYI, the LS1 is a '00 - '02 combination in the Camaro.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I always found that strange, since the LS1 was in '97 Corvettes, and '98/'02 F body cars.
Hard to find '98 LT1s.
I was told why, but it's bogus.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

That's the problem with this entire thread. It doesn't matter what people feel is "bogus". It what has been submitted by the manufacturers. It's in the guide and it fits the rules.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Mr. Kershaw, Why do you say the without the "package" cars, the NHRA did not have a way for late models cars to compete in NHRA Stock Eliminator? New, production cars had been racing in stock for many decades, Ford, Chevy & Dodge did have high performance production versions of the Mustang, Camaro & Challanger available to the public for years before the Cobra Jet, COPO & Drag Packs were invented, just like they were in the 60s and early 70s. Why were these production new cars not viable? Factory HP ratings too high maybe? Thats the manufacturers fault, not racers or NHRAs.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

He states the reason in his post.

“As the OEM's have improved the efficiency of the engines there are not the same gains to be had as older combinations.”

The new manufacturing process and standards has eliminated 30hp by turning a screw and 60hp by rebuilding a slapped together carburetor and adjusting the cam or machining with better tooling.

Plus with standards with SAE there is less “slide of hand” items to overrate/underrate due to insurance, advertising etc. HP ratings have to repeatable and within a window.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Too much cold medicine last night.

The classification tool lists the LS1 as a '99-'02 engine for the Camaro.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Bingo.

And although most people want to remember the "muscle" cars from the '60s as being fast (relative to late-model cars), vintage road tests reveal that most of them would have a hard time getting past a completely stock 2018 4-cylinder auto trans Mustang in a heads-up race.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

How are "completely stock" cars relevant here? That isn't what is being raced whether new or old.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

As Rory pointed out, we didn't "need" factory race cars (that have never been, and never will be legal to drive on public roads) in Stock Eliminator- new regular production cars do not suffer from any lack of potential as Stock Eliminator race cars.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I get it- you own a Cobra Jet. This thread is not a personal attack on you, Kristofer.

The subject of this thread is not "Ban Cobra Jets". I simply suggested separating the factory race cars from regular Stockers.

We do the same thing in motorcycle road racing- we don't race production-based Supersports and Superbikes against factory Grand Prix racing motorcycles, because they're two different things.

Who knows- separating them from regular Stockers might be a good thing for you. If the factory race cars raced amongst themselves, maybe the manufacturers would be able to sell more of them.

But hey, it was just a question. I'm not petitioning NHRA to change anything. My question doesn't change anything for you.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Still trying to figure out exactly which cars you think should be gone and why, you've not answered some of my previous questions.

Previously you wanted cars without a VIN gone but after being told about 80s G bodies and others previously built from bodies in white, plus some of the newer FS cars actually having VINs you backpedaled from that being a criteria.

Then it was cars equipped with drivetrain components that OEM street cars didn't have. However you don't seem to take any issue with LT-1 cars that were never produced while you do take issue with V10 cars that were never produced. Why is one OK and not the other?

You said you don't like a COPO with a Ford 9", which isn't really a Ford 9", it's all aftermarket parts that to some degree resemble a Ford 9". What about those "12 bolt" rears that aren't a GM 12 bolt? You know, the ones that somewhat resemble a GM 12 bolt but have cast in torque arm mounts to fit F bodies among other changes? Do those need to be thrown out too? If not, why is one OK and not the other? Do you think the new cars should have to remain IRS? If so, why not the Corvettes too?

Then there was the Powerglide in the Drag Pak example, which is just like the rear axle deal, it's not a GM powerglide, it only resembles one. So would you take away the aftermarket trans cases from the GM cars too? Would you take away the metric 200 from cars that didn't have them? Would you take all 3 speeds away from combos that were powerglide only?

I have to say that at face value it appears that you're willing to let certain things slide for older cars, but not the same kind of things for newer ones.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I'm not leveling any attack either, I'm trying to figure out where you think lines should be drawn. For the record, I don't own a CJ. I do have a Mustang GT under construction, to run in A/SA. It's something I want to try and it actually aligns with one thing you seem to be advocating for. This may be a foolish thing I am attempting but if it doesn't work out then with some minimal changes I can make it a 12 CJ which will allow me to remove 105lbs plus get a 3 tenths softer index.

One thing I am not going to do is advocate for rules changes when I'm not even racing.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Who knows, buddy? Maybe in 5 years you'll be able to race Stock Eliminator with a VIN-free front wheel drive conversion Ford Focus 2-door coupe, powered by a Boss 429 engine with a Powerglide behind it.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I would be happy to have a separate class for the factory race cars then my Copo would not ever give a 9 second handicap lead to a stock car. I think most would like to run factory showdown FS/XX but it is only run now in 7 events and none on the west coast. I am all for putting a new category out there for the factory hot rods heads up or not. And maybe change from a 9 inch tire to a 10.5 tire and make 160-170 mph cars safe.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Time to put the Nyquil down !

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

You're probably right...

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Ya know, I've been wondering just what you're thinking too. I've read all of your posts and I get "it" that you want to do something BUT, the rules are the rules. I don't like them any more than you do but the good old days aren't coming back. The dumbing down of Stock Eliminator will continue whether we like it or not. You can jump in and play or don't and be a want-to-be. Whichever, fast or slow, DIY or pay-to-play, big $$$ or dime-rocket, do something and have as much fun as you possibly can and meet a bunch of good people.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Hey Newbie, the thing that is going to keep the FS/ thing alive is going to be the 9" tires. You knew what you were getting into when you opened your wallet. Drag Racing isn't safe. If you don't like 9" tires then back-half your car and go SS Racing.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

You're absolutely right. Especially about the good people.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Yeah, I guess the modern HP ratings are why the new " package cars" can have higher comprssion ratios, bigger cams, larger throttle bodys, and less rated HP than the actual cars that the manufacturers sell to the public. (At least until they eventually get factored).

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Thanks, brother.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

I just got that. The '98 cars were LS1s, weren't they? What's NHRA's explanation for the '98 LT1?

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Do not confuse NHRA rating and consumer SAE ratings. The NHRA usually took the original manufacturers ratings at face value on most VIN # cars. Example of say an L88 factory rated at 430hp actually made closer to 560hp. Compared to a 5.0(302) coyote at 425hp actually making 435hp and would take ported heads, cams and intake to make 560-600hp(500rwhp).

Now was the 08-later “package cars” underrated? Absolutely. The 425hp 5.4/2.3TVS was actually 605hp

As far as the Ford side of things a large chunk of the turnkey cars used factory part #s/castings. A huge amount of the parts are on the VIN car if you choose to build one from that and you can go to the Ford dealer to order the remaining parts(even the blower was a dealer installed option that would retain the factory warranty/emissions)

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

As I've been away from the sport for a quarter of a century or so, can someone explain to me (in simple terms) the degree of separation that the Factory Showdown provides between regular Stockers and the factory race cars? The YouTube videos I've seen show the factory race cars racing against regular stockers- I don't understand.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

The Factory Stock Showdown is a heads up class completely separate from Stock eliminator. Only ran st 7 events and only the quick 16 get into the show. Don’t qualify you go home. *Any year (08-present) Factory SC engine in any year (08-present) factory drag car. All other Stk rules apply with min weights set based on engine combo. 2.3/5.4 is 3350 and 2.9/all other engine sizes is 3550#

The “Factory Stock” “paper” cars 08-present have the FS designation in stock and super stock for their class within stk/SS. Normal stk/SS rules apply. Same class is heads up run all else bracket race.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

As far as a newbie I have been racing since 1965 that's 54 years longer then a lot of racers have been alive. The reason I mention the 9 inch tire is in the context of having a separate class for factory hot rods, they have been a large percentage number of factory hot rods that have hit the wall and crashed. If NHRA was going to put them in a separate class there is no mandate for staying with a 9 inch tire on a 160-170 mph car . I don't recall that I ever said I didn't want to race on a 9 inch tire there is no need for me to backhalf my car I can put on a bigger tire and run in SS my index only goes down from 9.40 to 9.20. The thread was about
separating traditional stock class from the new factory cars. And if that was done there could be lots of changes. There is already a separate class for them FS/XX heads up it is the now the most popular new class and if NHRA gets smart they will expand it to all events instead of just 7 and that would make everyone happy.

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Thank you.

So the supercharged factory race cars can run Stock Eliminator OR the Factory Stock Showdown, but the normally-aspirated variants can only run in Stock Eliminator?

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

Correct...

Re: Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stocker
 

NHRA is not going to separate the NEW factory STOCK cars from the TRADITIONAL factory STOCK cars. Other than a VIN, which the new cars don't have because of federal EPA and safety regulations, there is no difference between a 68 Cobra Jet and a 2008 Cobra Jet. Or a 69 COPO and a 2012 COPO or a Hemi Dart and a Drag Pack. They have definitely increased interest in Stock Eliminator so whether I like them or not, I like them.

I would LOVE to see the FS/XX thing become 21st Century Pro Stock BUT NHRA has an incredible knack for ruining things by changing them to make them better. The "hot lick" with people younger than me right now is the "Street Outlaws" and "no prep" stuff and by leaving the 9" tires on the cars, the "tuners" are the ones winning some of the races not the guys throwing the most money at the track.