Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

It means we were asked to list our name and comp. number.
It also means that I couldn't comment under those restrictions.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I think this whole scenario comes down to two questions.

1. Should "engine builders" be allowed to have their own head approved?

2. Should a "porters" head be allowed?

I'm sure the answers to those questions could be debated forever. There are probably pros/cons to each.

Nick Morris
#3718

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Erik,
I have never said anything bad about you or would I. That's not how I roll. I don't think you did anything with the casting that anyone else would have done. I commend you for wanting to take things to the next level. Don't think there is anything wrong with trying to think outside the box.
Guess I am just stubborn and trying not see it go where it would be going. Sorry.
If you think I care were you put the spark plug you are sadly mistaking me for someone else. I don't care if you put it under the valve cover.
No I'm not as smart as you I'm just trying to work with what God gave me.
God bless and have a nice day

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Although I am not a current SS competitor, I hope that the community will give me grace to weigh in on this issue.

First, there is nothing personal toward Eric Jones in my assessment of the problems and issues that have arisen in the decisions NHRA has made for replacement heads for the SBC.

There are so many issues that could be discussed due to the consequences of the acceptance of aftermarket heads for both Stock and Super Stock, but I want to address the specific problem of the angle plugs on the Edelbrock 60617 and 60947 heads and now the Jones Engineering head. The rule book specifically states “Grinding and polishing in combustion chamber permitted. Welding and/or applying epoxy in combustion chamber prohibited. Spark-plug hole must maintain the stock location, size, and angle as machined by the OEM; spark-plug adapters prohibited." Since none of the OEM cylinder heads that these heads are supposed to replace have angled spark plugs, then NHRA is violating its own rules and specifically giving favoritism to these parts. Many hours of testing by Chevrolet when the angle plug modification was developed for off-road use showed a significant power gain. Reputable and noted engine builders of the era when the angle plug heads were first released also verified that the modification increased power output over identical heads with straight spark plugs. The angled spark plugs is a modification that produces more power. However, no engine that Chevrolet produced for passenger car use from 1962 thru 1970 used cylinder heads that had angled spark plugs, which includes every engine in the Classification Guide and Technical Bulletins. And, Chevrolet never included in any of their parts books a service replacement for any of the engines of those years an angle plug cylinder head. In fact, Chevrolet has never listed an angle plug head as a service replacement for any first generation SBC of any year. The only two angle plug heads offered by Chevrolet, part numbers 336746 (casting 3991492) and 3965784 (casting 340292), were always listed as "off-road use". There is so much historical documentation that supports this fact that it almost is ridiculous to argue that there is a production precedent to allow an angle plug head on 1962-70 SBC engines. So, either NHRA’s rules don’t mean squat or the mentioned aftermarket heads should not be allowed as accepted replacements.

The argument “that ship has already sailed” is a lame excuse and does not mean the decision cannot be corrected. There are precedents where NHRA has corrected long standing use of parts by racers for the accuracy of the rule book.

If the rule for OEM spark plug placement can be ignored, what is necessary about any of the other rules concerning valve angle, valve placement in the combustion chamber or even port specs? The specs for those items are all based on OEM production just like the spark plug placement. But if one spec can be ignored, then why not all of them?

Several years ago, a noted big block Chevrolet racer developed an adapter that allowed the use of a small spark plug placed beneficially in the combustion chamber, but that was quickly shot down even though many racers were using them. Does that mean those adapters are now legal?

Could the Chrysler big block racers petition to have Edelbrock’s angle plug head accepted?

I could go on with many other examples that show that this one issue that comes from these decisions has consequences that can be avoided. It’s not like there are no replacement heads for these small block Chevrolets. Edelbrock already had two cylinder heads accepted that had straight plugs. Even Mr. Jones lists a straight plug head as one of his products.

Even to argue that these heads should have their own power rating is ludicrous in light of the violation of the rulebook. And that decision opens up another discussion about policy that we do not want to bring into this issue.

Please remove the angle plug heads from the accepted parts list for engines that were equipped OEM with straight plug heads.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Erik, as you well know, I have the utmost respect for you. I have given numerous accolades to you and Larry about your performance and professionalism in the past, and continue. The "advantage" you claim I have, is something you cant just buy, and exploit when needed. John has worked his tail off, just like you. No part number there. I will continue to always feel I have an advantage, because I eat, sleep, and breathe super stock racing. Once again, no part number. I've expressed my concerns about this topic, as you know. I'm not going to debate on here about it. Other than Pandora's box has been opened, be careful what you all wish for.
As for Dominic, we made a business deal a while ago, and it hasnt been consumated in full. I'm sorry for dragging it into "your" thread.
Good luck, and I genuinely do wish you the best, concerning this topic.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I am going to admit 2 things here,
1) A friend told me to look at this, cause I am working and dont spend many hours a day on classracer
2) I read to about the 2nd page and quit.

As a manufacturer of parts, some made from billet forms or steel and aluminum, and some using castings, I feel like I have a little knowledge on this subject.

Getting a part approved by NHRA for anything has always been pretty easy in my opinion. I have several pistons/rods approved, and went through the deal.
It took 2 phone calls, and a sample.

If you can buy a NEW nice head to make a race head out of, and not have to get some piece of junkyard crap, clean it, crack check it, weld it, hope it doesnt crack when it cools, etc. then why all the bitching?

Another thing is the parts I have approved werent made in my shop. I drew cad models and had people make them that were in that business, which may or may not be the way the others did it, but if you look at most of the approved parts, the guys that have their name on them didnt make them on their drill press.

If you want to get edelbrock, or dart, or me to make you a part so you can get it approved, then make the phone call.

I bought 2 sets of pro port FE heads a few years ago, they were real nice, although we never used them, that stuff is out there. If your engine combination doesnt allow good parts, then maybe you need to choose more wisely.

I do some business with EJ, and we talk about stuff pretty regularly, mostly cnc stuff. I actually called him because another guy thats on here with pretty strong opinions called me about machining some heads, so I called EJ and asked him why edlebrock doesnt make a pro-port sbc head. I guess he put the effort into it and got it done. The first I heard about it was a post on wastebook.

Its a free country, if you want to make a difference in the world, close your browser and get with the program.

cw

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

[QUOTE:]
If you can buy a NEW nice head to make a race head out of, and not have to get some piece of junkyard crap, clean it, crack check it, weld it, hope it doesnt crack when it cools, etc. then why all the bitching?

Umm, because this isn't Comp or Pro Stock?

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Might not be Comp or Pro Stock but I can tell you my Super Stock Modified motor is less money than a traditional Class or GT motor. Why is that??

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

As an engine builder and a racer I’ll put in my 2 cents. I’m personally all for the head Eric has gotten approved. The amount of hours welding and epoxying the castings we currently use isn’t very cost effective, and while I do know that’s why the costs are what they are I feel like this head being legal for use in super stock is nothing but a positive and as stated Eric sells them to anyone and they fit the rule of “generally available”. My biggest thing I keep seeing being brought up is the angle plug situation so here’s some insight that seems to have gotten missed. NHRA has allowed angle plug replacement heads for gm engines for MANY years but a lot of people missed this. Gm years ago produced an over the counter replacement head that could be bought at any gm parts supplier or dealership, there were 2 part numbers, one was a 492 and one was a 292 and they were available in an angle plug and have been accepted by NHRA for a long time. I’m sure Dwight could probably look back in some old tech bulletins and tell us exactly when they were first accepted. My point and opinion here is this, I think a head that is generally available and more user friendly to get to the finished product is a plus all the way around.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

As per the conversation i had with the NHRA tech dept this afternoon i have submitted a letter to rescind the approved head that is on the list as well as the straight plug and LT1 head that i submitted for approval. NHRA has done everything they said they would do and i would like to thank them for up holding their word and being a professional organization.

For those of you who agreed with what i was trying to do and had intelligent comments i want to thank you for your support. Hopefully in the near future this will change.

For the rest you... as charlie said you better close your browsers and get to work!

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

This is wrong. All the best, Erik.
Oops, didn't see "racers only",, retired!!!

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

You could most likely submit your prototype part to NHRA for approval using cardboard and newspaper and it would get approved. That's what you get when most of the people in the approval process know nothing about an engine other than it starts when you turn the key.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I wonder, If these heads that Eric wants to produce for SS, were made and sold by an Edelbrock, or another manufacture, would there be such an uproar?

SS & "STOCK" are both so far removed and advanced from the original intent of the rules already, I can't help but think that these castings wouldn't save you a couple of bucks in the long run.

Just my opinion.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I'm sorry to hear this. I was really looking forward to playing with these heads and not have to weld and have epoxy in them.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Just a thought?????


Maybe its time to separate "Replacement" vs "Aftermarket" heads.


Steel "as-cast" become head numbers in the build sheet and the Aftermarket heads "Alum and Pro-port" style stay with a HP penalty?

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

It's a very disappointing 2018 Year of racing and was looking forward to the 2019 racing Year. TinSoldier SS/JA.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Approving a 440 Mopar made out of a 400 short deck comes to mind.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

How bout you follow some simple instructions and RULES that were placed at the beginning of this thread . It's very informative information and a you trying to
Hyjack the thread is not appreciated or needed.
Thank you .
Bob Aceves
746 D/SA

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Not trying to hijack anything. The implication was made that finding OEM heads in junkyards and spending a fortune to convert them to "race heads" is stupid. It is, but unfortunately, those are also the rules. My comment was meant to illustrate that. If Super Stock goes one step further, we will have aftermarket everything (i.e. blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, camshafts, lifters, cylinder heads, valves, valve springs, rocker arms, pushrods, carburetors, fuel injection systems, etc.). Will it still even be Super Stock, or just some one-off subset of Comp? Don't know how old you are, but I was around in the days when a smart, hardworking guy could build an entire car for the price of a short block today. That's why the .90 classes are full and Super Stock is slowly dying. And it's easy for the keyboard tough-guys to say "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", but they won't be so tough when the category is gone. My comments are as valid as yours, so don't tell me what's appreciated or needed and what isn't.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

You did make your point on the rules. Mike Lyons GT/JA 5727. And I guess I should be polite enough to say "...so please don't tell me what is appreciated or needed and what isn't". You were a gentleman and said "Thank you" at the end of your post, and I should be the same.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

You could no be more wrong in this post. The aftermarket parts have made the engines more durable. The cost of the new parts is more expensive than the old junk yard stuff of years ago. The engines did not last like the ones we have today. I would not want to go back to running a production block even if you could find a decent one. I still run 50 year old head castings on my car right now because that is what I have but I would not spend the money to build a new set from old castings. The times have changed but racing stock and super stock are still fun and alive and well.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Mike, it isn't about being right or wrong, though. I haven't broken a rod, crank, or lifter in years. I'll absolutely grant you that aftermarket stuff is a thousand times better than the OEM stuff. That's not the point. WHAT MAKES A SUPER STOCK CAR A SUPER STOCK CAR? We're at the point where the only thing you can't use is an aftermarket head casting. Let's face facts; NHRA has completely failed to enforce any meaningful rules in Super Stock, so we are going to get to the point where a 283/220 is only a 283/220 because it has a 4GC on top of it and runners that pour prescribed volumes and flat-top pistons of a certain bore diameter and a crank of a certain stroke. How is that NOT simply a version of a comp engine? I understand that it's way too late to do anything about it (there's no stopping "progress"), but I still think (as I always have) that Stock and Super Stock racing are continuing down the rabbit hole of ridiculous costs and endless rationalization, which just keeps driving people away.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

My 66 Chevy II is all steel, real windows, original interior (except seats), original trim package etc. That's what makes it a SS car. I do run the GM cast iron 041 heads. One day I may get an aluminum set....it will still be a super stocker.....

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

NHRAracer.com bulletin shows Jones head has been removed from Classguide.

http://nhraracer.com/content/general...688&zoneid=132