Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

It does seem difficult to get HP reductions for the older combos. In my particular case my car is a 327 rated at 295 hp. in SS. Some of the other cars in the class are fuel injected 350 cars that are less HP than my old car. Granted I don't have a good enough car to be a real threat to win class or qualify at Indy but it would be nice if the playing field was a bit more even. Then some good driving and a bit of luck lightning can strike. I really have no complaints.
I actually think lowering the trigger for automatic HP might work better but I doubt we will see anything like that happening any time soon.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I'm with you there Gump, there's a difference between going 1.20 under at Gainesville than it is at Atlanta. While we're getting a wish list together if you go 1.20 under its automatic tear down.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Few young people have the time, money or resources to do an essentially frame up restoration to be competitive.

When the next generation passes away....
NHRA is going to have to think about what defines Stock and SS.
Sure they are already doing that.

D

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Yes! This should be a standard.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Mandatory tear down for 120 under cars only
I’m a little late to class racing. Be doing it 15 years
How about if you a 1 second I Under they randomly look at the car?
Not gonna happen. Divisional s and National Events.
No time to do it Nhra ain’t doing it. No time or help
Remember they lowered indexes 3 tenths about 12 years
What did that prove? There were a lot of fast cars still going 1 second under still
So reducing index. Don’t work. Us racers will still go fast
Indy is the only place to make system work.
If you go 120 under at INDY. You get Instant HP
Why is this a problem? It makes no sense to allow the BS to go on
If you can go this STUPID FAST At INDY
You NEED HP. Simple no more mulligans people
Stop with its INDY it’s ok. your combo is soft
Or your a good cheetah Flame on

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Barry,
I hope to make it up to Bowling Green at least. I just bought a house after my divorce, haven't even moved in yet, and Kevin is building a new house and new shop, so we're busy, but we still have the addiction!

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I agree. The 305 deal that happened last season is one example. -Al

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

This is the best and most common sense answer to this question. We lost over 25% of our fields when this was done before. Guys and gals who run .10 have every right to come out and enjoy class racing. Lower the index and the gamers will continue to play games! Jim


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Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

No flamin' coming from me Jimmy Boy! I'm getting a little worried. You and I used to take pot shots at each other... now we are agreeing more and more! What happened! Jim

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Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I'm with y'all too, always think Perrone has good sense just doesn't have a filter!

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

one under you get hp; Wouldn't take long for difference between combo's to even out. my 2 cents worth.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

^^ I agree

But....What if found to be not legal ?

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

1 year suspension and no hp for the combo.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I agree with Tim Stickles (post #16) , No index change, and Bill Bogues ,hp trigger/hit at 1second under. In my opinion time& work on car/combo =$$$$, of witch I have niether. I'm gonna change my National event sponsor/entry to Riff-Raff racing.:)

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Lowering the trigger will only result in more sandbagging.


Look,there is only ONE way to make the AHFS actually work worth a damn, the way it should. And the slow guys will NOT like it.



In order to make the AHFS actually work right, you have to actually truly reward performance. If you're not paying real points and real money for qualifying, class wins, and records, no one in their right mind is going to go out with their favorite combination and get it really hit, unless they're hold WAY more than they're getting hit for.


If you don't want to make performance the focus of the class, and make it pay, then you shouldn't complaining about the AHFS anyway.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Tom O I like you man but you have one of the softest combo's out there. Not many NHRA hp ratings are lower than what the factory rating was. Don't forget Gary ran that combo just a few short years ago. For little to no money he was running a second under. And not many have less to spend them him on racing. And didn't I see you name at a California race. I still hope some day to have that kind of money to get out there. Rif raft my patooty. Not to pick on you but you seem to have something against us that actually work on our cars. I try to test something on one time trial at most of the races I go to where we get three. Not expensive stuff either. How long have you been running that combo? With half my brain tied behind my back and very little money I bet I can pick you up from 1 to 2 tenths for under a grand. Just saying. Your friend Barry

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Makes too much sense but I totally agree. The AHFS should apply to every pass made down the track, including Indy and national opens. If you can run 1.80 under, you should get horsepower. I agree the AHFS isn't perfect, but at this point in time it's all we have.


Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

It depends on what you consider mineshaft. I got HP at Mission a couple of years ago when it was -600feet, low humidity and a tailwind but NHRA didn't consider that mineshaft because apparently not enough racers ran fast enough. To make this work the actual conditions have to be taken into account, not just how many fast cars or 1000 ft racers show up.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

BP you crack me up, I was out west in 2000/01. You"ll have to give me a loan& lots of advice. Thanks in advance brother.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Fair enough Gary.


My only question is, and again, not arguing, where does it stop?


Meaning, you worked hard to get to 1.00 under. But the reason is, you're never satisfied (mark of a good racer, never satisfied, always looking for that next 0.05) with how fast you are. So, when you get to 1.25 under, what then?


Alan you asked a great question. Where does it all end. The simple truth is , that it does not. Look at the records in any class from 20 years ago. Then 10 years ago and now. First pro stock to go 6.99 or 200 mph. Comp cars running faster than ever. The hemi challenge time for the past 10 years. And how about Booby DeAround going 9.99 in his big block 1969 camaro. Now no one blinks if a big block camaro goes 9's. Lets be honest. Who thinks their car will be going the same times in 10 years if they still have it. If you do you are fooling yourself. If just adding horsepower is the answer, in time we will all just be A cars. Technology changes, rules change and parts get better. No not everyone can run out and get the trick of the month, but over time we have all gone faster than years gone by. To just say that far under or the trigger is here and that's it, will not work. I think we need to look at what has been allowed (like it or not) and go from there. There may not be an easy answer, but we will all go faster in time.....Just my thoughts.. Gary Parker

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

All of you might as well run Super Stock with todays stocker rules ! There is nothing stock with stockers today. Been around this stuff since 1961 and have seen all of the changes !!!! The lack of NHRA tech is part of it. They do not want good tech guys anymore. Have to pay for the vice presidents they keep hiring. I can count the number of GOOD tech guys on my left hand ! I predict stock being combined into S/S sometime in the near future with MORE enhancement's being allowed ! Maybe turning it all into Super Pro in a few years ! Like this post or not.....It is what it is.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I don't know about Stock being combined with SS. There's still just too many of us. As far as the "turning it all into Super Pro" thing, I guess that I could see "Stock" becoming, stock appearing body and 9" tires, no classes and all run. That way the kids can race Dads antique with a modern engine/trans package.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

x tech man... I agree with you. Here we are talking about indexes and horsepower triggers.

1) how many people go to their engine builder hoping to hear "We got less horsepower for you this year"

2) Who wants to be going slower in a few years. Yea baby we slowed it down this year... we are on the right track..(never heard that at the track)

3) Look at the qualifying at Sonoma... 28 cars 9 tenths under and I bet they all could have gone a second under.

4) There is no easy answer but as long as we racers, we will work on making our cars faster

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Lower indexes will only frustrate more racers. Not good for maintaining class racing. Gotta maintain some compromise to help new people get involved and go from there..

Charlie = low buck / newbie Stock / SS racer

Lucy = NHRA / lower index proponents

football = Stock / SS indexes

https://media1.tenor.com/images/78b8...temid=10307317

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Once or twice a year this topic comes up. Same answers to the same questions. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t stock and super stock performance based categories? The rules have given racers ways of making their hot rods faster, stronger, and be able to make more runs without the added expense of freshening as often. Why does it seem like “we” as competitors have to always placate to the “new” guy? We have been here, grinding it out, spending our hard earned money to improve and support these categories for years, or decades. Strip the indexes back a half a second, make the weight breaks one pound, and combine sticks and autos. Let’s get back to some fun!
Obviously the contingency has suffered because of the lack of participation, buying of parts to aid in performance, or whatever else seems to be the gripe of the moment. This would bring back the heads ups, performance based category that seems to be missing, all but one race a year.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Where are all the newbies. I have seen a lot of COPO's at $ 90 TO 100 Thousand plus. Mustangs and Challengers. Reading filled up 30 minutes after it opened to a 5 grade point.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

So what you’re saying Gary, is that the stock and super stock categories aren’t dying off, or there is new blood coming in?

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

My position is not to "have to always placate to the “new” guy". But I'm suggesting that things don't get harder for a "new guy" to get involved.

"New guys" (and girls) are needed. You can't rely on the current racers to maintain the number of participants due to a variety of attrition. Not everyone can buy-in into a fast car. Starting from scratch and the rate of performance gains vary from racer to racer. People may want to get involved, but lower indexes can erase any progress or make some uncompetitive - like the 3 tenths certainly did. Slow, but under the index, already has several disadvantages - in heads-up races, HP hits from faster same class combos and just running the index under the worst conditions after getting there elsewhere. But there are people who still want to support the class.

Class can remain "performance based" and there still are some incentives. But putting too much emphasis on performance only will slowly raise costs and reduce the numbers, like Modified & Pro Stock. There will always be qualifiers at the bottom and those that have little chance at winning class or a heads-up, and that is incentive to go faster, as it's affordable. But at least new racers can still get involved and have a shot at winning the event. The indexes (minimum performance standard) still have to be met and aren't easy. National events take a lot of work and racing to get into and those with the resources can do it. Lower indexes will make it harder to race even at divisionals. I would hate to see them get lower and Stock become an exclusive club. Hoping for other options.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Myron,
I really want to know how many people are truly considering quitting ONLY because they can't run very far under the index.


And out of those, how many are REALLY dedicating serious effort to going faster?


Those are serious questions.


Because often, the reality is people really aren't trying. And they're really just looking for a reason to quit.


Let's just be brutally honest here. If you REALLY want to go fast, you can get help, if you're actually trying. Hell, even the vast majority of the truly fast racers will go out of their way to help a slow guy pick up. But you have to WANT to go faster, you have to be willing to at least work, and bring your stuff to the track, and then all you have to do is ask for help.


Sorry, but when I first started working on Kevin's car, I really didn't have to ask for help. I asked 2-3 questions, and next thing I knew, more than half a dozen really fast racers, and top flight engine builders, were burning up my phone and my email offering help. And I mean bending over backwards, and pretty much taking money out of their own pockets.


Barry Parker was one of them, with tuning advice, and offering to loan me a carburetor. Keith Lynch not only sold me a carburetor core for 1/3 of what it was worth, but he gave me his place in line at Clark Holroyd's, and Clark stepped up, too, never mind tuning advice from both over the years. Barry Polley helped me when we killed the first engine due to a broken rocker stud. When a bad camshaft hurt one of our engines, Darrell Wikle sold me a new cam, at cost, as well as a brand new set of pistons, pins, and rings, then spent 3-4 hours on the phone with me. Arnold Greene helped me, not only with our stuff, but with stuff for others. Steve Calabro and Joe Fasano helped, too. Even Bobby DeArmond helped me. And Hell, Jimmy Bridges has helped me out more times than I can count. The list goes on, it would probably be a shorter list of who hasn't helped.



And then I've done my best to pay it forward, helping pretty much anyone who asks, and if I can't help, I can usually find someone who can, and I've rarely sent anyone anywhere for help that they didn't get it.


We keep hearing about all of these people who "can't go fast", and "wants to quit", but seriously, how many of them are really working on their car and can't make progress and can't get help. Because honestly, if you're a class racer and you want help, but can't get it, you probably ought to ask yourself what you're doing that makes people avoid helping you, because class racers just ain't that way.


Here's the deal. If you're not going fast, get some help, go to the track, and work on your stuff. If money is a problem, then maybe you need to do what Gary Parker said he did in this thread, park your stuff for a while, save your money, learn, and work on it, then go when you're ready. I know how he feels, we've parked our stuff, for a lot longer than we wanted, because we can't devote the time and money to do it right. My friend Barry Polley has done the same thing. Sometimes you have to. And we're not crying about it, nor are we trying to get anyone slowed down. We're saving our money, biding our time, and planning a comeback.





And let me be clear, I'm not advocating lowering the indexes, I'm really a proponent of changes to the AHFS, and changes to both points and payouts to make it pay to be fast.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Gary, I can feel your pain brother but we have to remember there are many racers who simply cannot afford to go fast. They shouldn't be shut out by the over achievers. There are many more .500 - .600 under cars than there are one second under cars. Without them Stock Eliminator would lose its character and vanish.

I'll offer a suggestion for National Events with Class racing. Have three rounds of qualifying with the AHFS in place, then bump the trigger up to 1.10 for Class Eliminations only. The first round of class would not be a qualifier pass. The actual Eliminator would be run using the current AHFS rules again. Yea, the slower cars will have to deal with the sharks in the Eliminator if they decide to enter the race. And the faster cars will have to deal with AHFS triggers. This suggestion is similar to what we had about ten years ago. And, of course mine shaft races would still use the 1.20 rule.

1.100 under should be the number for the Class Eliminator because not all fast combinations are created equal, no matter how much money or time we put into these cars some combinations will be better than others.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Bruce it took you long enough to chime in. LOL We are talking only a tenth It's not going to change the guys that are only going 5 or 6 under. They are still going to qualify in the same spot. There really is nothing cheap about stock anymore. Sad but the truth. I plan on going to Atco next weekend. It will be 600 to 700 hundred dollars for the weekend by the time I'm back home. I keep on hearing about the poor new guys but all I keep seeing are the new comp cars that have been stuck in our class. Hope to see you out soon. Barry

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

What about slowly bumping up the AHFS triggers over time instead of lowering indexes? Maybe a hundredth or two per year? Doesn't keep anybody who can just barely run the index from racing, and the AHFS keeps up with the progress of people constantly trying to pick their cars up.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Just trigger the AHFS at the 1/8th mile . That should solve everything lol ! Its just a game and always will be with the AHFS so just have fun with what it is and be thankful there is still Stock eliminator ! I just wish NHRA rewarded people for records and so on. NHRA needs to be more involved in it because the class is getting more popular than when I started in 09 one grade point would get you in anywhere then ,but not anymore !

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

6 quarts of heavy oil, timing turned back 5 degrees and 130 pounds heavy should do the trick.

Barry, sorry I am late to the party. Been busy on the new-to-me car. Losing a tenth means a lot to everyone of the slower cars on the sheet. Most of the .600 and under racers work hard on their cars and losing a tenth can be demoralizing. Just add the weight and heavy oil and strut your stuff only when it's needed or at an Open race. Racing for Class will also give you a shot to air it out with a new 1.10 under rule. Give it some thought.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Yeh I know the AHFS is really just a joke now a days it seems. I really don't know how to solve the issue . Best thing to do is just play the game and have fun !

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Hey Bruce what yah building? Maybe raising the AHFS number would be the better solution. The problem with the popular class's such as A,B,F,G,H stock auto there are a bunch of guys that can even in bad air go 1 plus under. It's to easy to get HP if you catch one in the eliminator. I keep hearing about all these new guys but the only new ones I have seen are spending $100,000 plus on these new comp cars they let run stock. For anyone wanting to join Stock there has been some real nice cars for sale in the last few months. A lot cheaper than you could build a competitive car for. Jimmy Powers car was a great buy for high 20's. His is not the only one though. Barry

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I'm kind of taken back about not working on a combo and I know it's not a personal attack on any racers. There's plenty of racers like me, I've had my car now for over 40 years because it's my car from when I was a teenager,
I'm not going change the combo and I still work pretty hard on it. When I was starting to qualify at the middle of the sheets, nhra took 3 tenths away and because I have an engine family related to earlier models which can run smaller lighter cranks I got hp. I have a combo that has had hp on it since Jr. Stock. You can only throw so much money at it and come to the realization that it is what it is.

Casey Miles
248H stock

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

There are several fast 302 cars out there.......

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

But I'd be willing to bet that Casey's is "Stock".

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I know that there are several 302 cars that fly, but there is difference of just how much money I'm willing to spend on mine. I can tell anyone that there is no lack of effort on my part working towards bettering the performance of the car. There is also the factor of trying to preserve the originality of the Z/28 as a Stocker.

It makes me wonder that all the advantages that a solid lifter engine had which got lost with the valve spring and hydraulic lifters rules. A hydraulic based engine didn't get an increase in HP and the solid lifter based engines didn't get a reduction in HP. The factory didn't make the true performance cars hydraulic lifter, they came as solid lifters with mandatory disk brakes.

So as hard as I work on my combo, power is given away by NHRA to the lower powered engine families. Give them the HP they should be rated like a solid lifter engine.

Casey Miles