Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

I don’t have a clue about the hp the three are making, although I would guess the Dodge is probably 50 or so better right now. One of our young engineers could probably weigh in on the aero stuff.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

What I was asking is how much horsepower does it take to overcome the aero of the front ends. That was a common number used in pro stock until the template changed the actual shape of the different makes.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

When they start dictating these stupid rules, it takes away from the "run what ya brung" class. Start factoring in weights-HP, then it's just the regular bracket-Stock class, same ole same ole.
What's really pissing them off is Dodge could be the first in the 7s (legally) and not their money cows.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Yes, the "F" does mean Factory, and that's why the Dodge's shouldn't be racing that combination. Most of you don't know that this combination didn't exist in 2015. This combination never came in a "Factory" car. What they are racing today is so far from what the factory produced, it's not even funny.

The blocks and heads are not production based parts. You can't fit them onto a normal Hemi. It is a purpose built pro stock style block and heads.

They switched to a different blower, same as the COPO, and added a spacer for a better intercooler and air flow.

They cut the rad support out of the car, which is insane, and added a huge air intake scoop. The original cars came with nothing.

They lowered the engine, moved it back, shortened the driveshaft, and made custom motor and trans mounts. Again, nothing factory about that.

They use a remote water pump, unlike the factory cars.

They changed the hood altogether and modified it.

Don't get me wrong, the folks at Dodge, SRT, and Mopar did a fabulous job making all of these upgrades. But none of it should have been accepted as a Stock Eliminator car, especially 2.5 years late.

Bottom line is that they built an Outlaw Factory Stock car and the NHRA let them slip it in 2 years late. I don't care what their documents supposedly say. These parts absolutely did NOT exist in 2015 when these cars were produced. I know for a fact because I was involved in the beginning stages. I begged to buy anything they had for 2 years and gave up. We also had the first Supercharged Drag Pak that ever made it onto a track. There was no talk of any of these parts in existence. If they existed, don't you think we would have been racing them?

Just to give you an idea on how good the block and heads are, we gained 75 horsepower when we switched from the 2010 to 2015 426 Hemi. That's 100 more horsepower than what the COPO 427 is capable of. Same cubes, same valve size, same compression, same engine builder and tuner. Imagine what it can do with a blower on it?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Greg, the reason I asked was your statement that the Dodge was the worst by a fair amount , I guess David's comments takes it to another level, kind of like the Harley's in pro stock bike. Thanks to David for offering that info.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

David, David, David, I guess because you haven't outrun them lately now they need weight and you need to get some weight taken off. You think that thing you got came that way? Your ole Daddy tells me how many crates of parts Chevrolet sends you, and he tells me you can't get parts for a Dodge. Those are both quotes. From what I understand the Chevrolet you run is because yall couldn't get parts for the Dodges. Now I of all people understand the parts thing with Dodge. They got no parts unless you want a poster or something. Just cause they got out on you, don't get mad, get faster. You have the knowledge and the ability. This reminds me of Pro Stock when NHRA made everyone have the same weight pistons, rods, and other stuff as Greg Anderson. Sure didn't change much in Pro Stock. And you know how tricked out the other DSR Challenger is. You sold it to them. Maybe you should have kept it.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Jeff, this whole deal is nothing new, I tried to have it all stopped a year ago before it got out of hand. But I don't have enough political power to make a difference. Now that it's proven they are fast maybe something can be done about it. It makes us look weak but I'm not afraid to admit that I can't find another 100 HP and 5 MPH out of a Stock Eliminator engine. It's just not possible with the limitations we have. We are at a huge disadvantage and it's simply not fair.

This has nothing to do with Chevrolet sending us parts. I don't even know why you are bringing that up because it is off topic here. You obviously just want to sling dirt on me as usual.

Just admit it, the Dodge's are running a bogus combination and you know it. I, on the other hand, am running the same engine that came in the car.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

...

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Does Joe Welch have the DSR stuff?
Mike A114

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

I think Geoff Turk and the DSR cars have BES Power, Welch I think Mike Moran works for him or does his, and Chris Holbrook and Mike are close, and Roy does the motors on the car Allen Johnson drives which has shared ownership with me.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

After reading all posts thus far, Todd Hoven and David Barton make the most intelligent and informative points. Thank you for explaining to the non FSS racers (but still fans). Agree with the NHRA decision.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

So the "Non-DSR" Dodges are at a disadvantage too? Have they got the same stuff? Is this heading towards "spec" engines? (To make it fair)

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Jeff,
As a car owner, how important is the 9" tire rule to you?
Thank you, Mike

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The 9" tire will help control the class and put more pressure on the tuners to keep them going straight.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Or turn the class into a crash up derby like the radial events.

Cubic dollars will destroy the class as it does every heads up class in existence. There is no such thing as "entry level" or "sportsman" in a heads up class, someone will always come along and outspend you.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

We are all entitled to our opinions, but here are the facts:
1. Dodge doesn’t race a production a race car. The engine didn’t come in the car from the factory. The car has been significantly modified.
2. Ford and Chevy do race a car with the engine that the car came with.
3. The top three CJ’s and Copo’s consistently run with in .03’s of each other!
4. Dodge is outrunning the other combinations by 6 mph, at 20-25 hp per mph there is no way they don’t have 100-150 more hp than CJ’s and Copo’s. 1.25 60ft times and out running the other brands by .10-.12 every run at Indy is factual.
5. These cars are showcasing the manufacturer’s and how cool stock eliminator cars are! What will ruin the class is out of control spending. This class needs to be regulated by a combination of weight and pulley size. If this doesn’t happen there will not be full fields in the future and the class will go away.

My opinion is that the class is pretty cool! I like that Dodge has their act together and is really fast. I don’t like showing up the the races with no chance of winning unless a Dodge has a mechanical failure or spins the tires(at 1.25 60ft and 20degrees of timing out of the car for over second it will never happen). I think that Ford and Chevrolet are working on improvements for next year and will close the gap. The cars need to run 7.90’s@175 and that’s it. It’s very marketable that a production car from the factory can do that and it’s relatable. From a performance standpoint anything more than that the engines don’t live and there is only so much a 3,500lb car and a 9 inch tire can do safely! I also think that Dave Ley and Danny Garcia have done a great job trying to keep this class in its box. NHRA is doing what they can to understand this class and it’s future. It is a new class and needs some tweaking, but if done correctly it will be a viable platform for some great racing!

S.Bell

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Great post!!!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

WOW,so the Dodge Parts are not available to all racers that would want to build a race car for this class?
How did this happen?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Agreed 100%. I try to explain that fact to non-racers all of the time.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Well, let's see if this gap is as wide as promoted. The blown cars I sold (touchy, feely, sold them) had a steel block, which was replaced by an aluminum block. Don't know if that is good or bad. Who else has an aluminum block? Had the blower on it which was changed later to match the Chevrolet and I don't know if everyone yet today has the same blower. To my knowledge the heads are the same as when the cars were made in 2015 no matter what anyone says. I think we had a hemi head in the early 50's and still do. I think that counts as a factory head. Got one on the 5.7, 6.1, 6.4, (actually there are three heads for the 6.4 if anyone is interested) not counting the one on the Hellcat and Demon motors. That head also came on the 426 unblown motor. and I think a 426 unblown motor is in development for factory cars. The Leah car was mine and was in the process of becoming an FS car when Kevin and I abandoned the project and sent it back to them and them sent it to DSR. The Cowboy car was Bartons and had run with a 426 unblown motor. The Allen and Roy Johnson car was my No 10 in the 10 cyl cars, and was in the trailer when I wrecked a couple of years ago. Lots of work to get it back where it was useable as a race car. There are so many details on these cars since 2008, I can't remember them. Nostalgia Note, the Leah car is the original #2 car from Denver debut in 2008. It was actually the first car produced, but somehow got #2. No 1 is laying around the Detroit area somewhere. Kevin car probable remember some other things. Maybe not. There was a proposal to have an unblown heads class with a sponsor, prize money paid and all expenses which NHRA promptly turned down. I wear a size 13 shoe, weigh 275 lbs (real fatso), went to my first race in 1958 and drove the first time in 1960, have had two knees changed, one hip, one shoulder and another getting changed in a few months. I have been a Dodge dealer since July 1968 (along with my brother Joe). My brother's side of the family owns every Kenworth dealer in Louisiana. I will be 75 in three or so weeks. I retired a few months ago after 50 years of looking at Hemi heads. I have sold more Drag Paks than any other dealer in the Nation. There is more but that old people disease CRS takes over after a while. Excuse my rambllings, but I was there when most of you were not, and I remember some of it. Kevin might know some of the rest.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

It’s my understanding that the older FS cars can run the new motors in all 3 brands. If that’s the case, there should be no complaining about running what came in the car. Dodge got what they are running approved by NHRA so maybe Ford and Chevy should be working on some new heads or cams or whatever. Dodge hasn’t built any new Drag Paks in a few years plus the Challenger hasn’t basically changed in 10 years and it’s the least aero of any of them. I’m a Chevy guy. I’ve raced Chevy’s all my life so I’m not biased against anyone. I think this is a very cool class and I really hope individual agendas don’t ruin it. There are going to be tweaks to keep it competitive as we go as there should be.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Dodge made it and NHRA approved it. Why change the rules in the middle of the game? Should have waited till the end of the year to discuss any changes. Better yet, jump on the band wagon & build a Dodge and you will have nothing to complain about.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

I have asked this question before and never received a answer.
Are all the Dodge blocks and heads available to any racer that wants to build one of these Factory Stock Class Race Cars?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The article in Dragster on DSR says that they keep inventory in house to supply the Drag Pak racers with whatever they need.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

A few clarifications, DSM (Motorsports) has a huge investment in parts that are for sale to anybody that wants to play the game.The bottleneck is Blocks and there availability, Dodge-SRT-Mopar are working to fix this. Not my department, but I know we have 16 ordered. Theses are the same blocks and heads Bartons ran on the NEW 426 combo. DSR (Racing) is my end. I can assure you that we do not have an unlimited budget as some might think, Don looks at every invoice, but we get what I say we need. Like I posted somewhere else, NHRA needs to go to a PRO ladder with qualifying points like NMCA does so there are less ladder games going on. Steven Bell, my friend, you dont have a chance to win? Who swept Gainesville,Charlotte and are #1 and #2 in points. With Welch having "Technical Difficulties" and having to drag a "0" for the rest of the year as a claimer, You guys are looking real good and are doing a great job. Best of luck to all, and we will see most of you in St Louis. Sucks that NMCA is three miles from the shop the same weekend.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The way I see it,its not 50 lbs, with the 25 lbs off for the Ford and chevy"s, that's 75 lbs! History all over!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

25# on the Mopar. 25# off Copo and Cobra Jet. Cages are certified to 3600# so they couldn’t add 50# to Mopar so they revised it.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Wait a minute. I thought factory stock was a working man’s class. $250,000 is s bit steep. I saved all my coupons from McDonald’s from my happy meals, and so I still need $249,568 to compete? I’m out.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

LOL.....Yep......no doubt so since the FS/XX cars are around $125,000 new then you have to blueprint the engine and set the car up to run 8.0's on top of a million dollar motor home. Name one NHRA class that's in the average working mans budget besides S/ST and how many national events can you run with one of those ? Even a decent bracket car will cost you a bundle unless you want a "Dime Rocket" like Billy Nees and a few other guys build......Nothing wrong with them but I guess its the all mighty $$$$$$ that determines what class you get into !

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Just like any of the other stock and super stock classes. Run fast and get factored. Similar to AHFS.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Excellent points Stephen, great post!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Chevy did same thing with the first batch of COPO's when they recalled the production blocks and heads on the S/C engines with the LSX blocks and heads non production parts that were not installed on those cars. So you should say that Chevy started the practice.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

It didn't take too long before FS got f'd up, didn't it?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The costs in this class have got to point that it makes running SS/AH look affordable.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

And that is exactly what has caused the steady decline of Stock and Super Stock drag racing. People with ridiculous money see a new potential way to be cool, spend money and show-off; they set down their golf clubs, park their CVO Harley, write a few checks and are suddenly drag racers. They get the best car, engine, trans, etc. that money can possibly buy (and there are always "name" guys ready to take as much of their money as they can get), and the guy who actually races out of love for the sport is relegated to "poor sap" status. Can't help but wonder though, why the Comp guys seem so different; they appear to just show up and race, without all of the controversy and hand-wringing.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The supercharged COPOs have only been offered with LSX blocks.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Now THAT'S some funny stuff right there! True in SOME respects but funny.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

It could also be that some people who were too young or too broke to experience factory race cars the first time around don't want to sit and watch it pass by a second time. A lot of you guys have way more money in your motor home than others have in their factory cars. It's all about choices.......

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Now, THAT'S some true stuff right there! Funny in SOME respects but true.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The first ones built had production Blocks and Heads couldn't keep heads gaskets in them!