Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Ed: #1, yes, I was THERE when the racers caught Muncy. #2: Did I ever say I DON'T believe others are cheating?????? Nope, never said that, but NHRA is the one raising this issue SUPPOSEDLY based on the cheating, yet I have not seen ANYTHING that they are posting as proof. That is my point, you missed that, Huh?? It is NHRA's responsibility to catch them, I agree they might not be doing their job, but does that mean we punish ALL people that LOOK like criminals, because they MIGHT be?? ( like all the thugs in the NBA, but that's another story....)

#3: Stock Eliminator is an ENTRY level class. My Ex has ONE other car that has built that SPECIFIC combo, and has done well, and has ADMITTED to him that he threw LOTS of $$ at it. Nice of you to spend others $$. He doesn't, nor do I, have tens of thousands of dollars to throw at another car if we don't like the one we have. I'm glad you have that ability. He has had that car for years. It has sentimental value as well, so he thought he'd try. Stock Eliminator has gotten rather expensive to just "scrap" a car and go buy one. I have one that I've had for a number of years that I plan on building, but it's a car I already own, cheaper to build one, or it used to be, than to go buy one. You assume that everyone has unlimited funding, MOST don't.

I really don't understand why you always have to play devil's advocate to everyone, if I even had a CLUE as to who you are, I might understand, but I don't. I don't think your assessment is fair, there are MANY that don't use these forums ( or even have a computer) that are in the same position as Lane. I can think of 3 here in CO and so there must be more in other areas.


Kandra

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

BTW Ed, Lane was a Stock Eliminator racer LOOOOOOOOONG before he was a S/C or other driver. He is the best slow car driver I've ever seen. He took his skills from running a SLOW car and is also one of the best Super Pro drivers in this area as well. I didn't do to bad my first full season in SS either, finished 7th in D5, and even had one runner up, got MOST of my skills from slow car driving. He isn't one that came down from S/C to stock, he went the other way, so your post is incorrect in him wanting to drive his dragster like his stocker, he changes from one car to the other. Something most DON'T/CAN'T do.

Kandra

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

...

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

"Put me down for $100 on Biondo not winning as many races in Stock next year if Two-steps are gone !
Have a nice day
__________________
Ed O'Brien 4191 STK "

You are sooo smart Ed it is amazing. You probably have the same bet for Dave Connelly next year....that he will not win as many races as this year.

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Everyone is talking like banning two-steps is some kind of silver bullet...going to "Keep Stock, Stock." It will last one event...as soon people go get their asses kicked by the same people that were kicking them before...then what? What are people going to blame then? NASA satellites? GPS units?

This is just the flavor of the week.

I've got an idea. How about practicing to get better?

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Ed dont want to argue with you but i see your name on here alot, i just want to know what kind of stocker you have?

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MIckey,

Not sure what Ed drives these days but I am sure it doesn't matter. I saw him at a race once and he was 2 tenths late on the tree in round one and I remember saying to my buddy... "man, for a guy who knows alot, he is horrible".

Here's what I DO know about Ed.

1- He was all about banning deepstaging 5 years ago and had the same reasons for banning it as he does now for banning 2 steps, felt like certain guys were gaining an advantage, said they wouldn't win as much without deepstaging.

2- he never has anything nice to say about Biondo's, Fletcher, Zane, Bertozzi,,,,hmmmm I wonder what those names have in common??

3- if he was had a backbone and was sure there was some kind of cheating going on he would be a man, bring his best hot shoe and put him against one of the above on HIS practice tree, but from the looks of things he may not even own one. Meet at a race, first to ten in his trailer for $1000??? But that won't happen either Mickey, trust me when it comes to a chance to confront people he bashes, he folds over like a lawn chair.

4- He doesn't make many friends
5- His IQ is below average (obviously).

As far as 2 steps go, I talked with Biondo and Zane this weekend at atco about it and they said they voted against 2 steps for next year.... I wonder what Ed thinks of that? I am sure he will have a response that doesn't correlate to the question..........

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..

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thanks for the reply ed, you might want hire jason line for your combo to compete with the FI cars next year....

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Ed is drunk... Look out Mickey he's coming for jim beam

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Shouldn't mess with a man's Jim Beam. It's just plain un-American. Ed, I'll take your bet, and you can add some digits there sweetheart.

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Well Ed,I,like many others on here don`t know who in the hell you are,and really,I don`t care to either. Your post earlier was wrong with a couple of things,some of which were pointed out by "my ex" as you put it,I like to call her my friend,Kandra. She was the one who suggested that I look on this formum to see what topics were being discussed,and I went on from there. Yes,there was a V/SA car in the final in Pomona a few years back,but it wasn`t the same combo,it was an ODD FIRE V-6,not an even fire,different engine. My first year driving a dragster was in 1998,two years AFTER I won the NHRA Div 5 Stock Championship. In fact that same year I started driving the dragster I had a "54" on the window of the Buick,and it was the 3rd year in a row with a top 5 finish in Div 5,so I did not want to drive a S/C car like my Stocker,and couldn`t,there`s no similarity between a 15 second Skyhawk and an 8 second dragster. I leave with the button on the pedal in the Buick and off of a transbrake with the dragster. Basically that confirms to me that you don`t know a damn thing about the people you bitch about on the internet,and should just get a life,and when you do ever race,maybe learn how to go rounds so we can remember what kind of "Stocker" you run. "The Hawk"

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

please...pretty please...dump 2 steps, buttons, and blocking. And really, I don't think it will increase the disparity between good and bad racers, in reality helping the better racers to win even more. I'm just a class racing purist.

I really think Ed is on to something (or should I say on something). This will definitely help to eliminate the rampant cheating that is obviously going on.

Can we get rid of reaction timers too?

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Hey Ed, I can understand why you say you have not won a round. You are to worried about what other people are doing or not doing. If you think people are cheating put your money up and catch them. If you think there is such an advantage to having a 2-step get one. Please dont complain when people succeed by using things that are allowed under the rules. Just because you cant win following these rules doesnt mean they have to be changed. Try harder! And even if they get rid of 2-steps i am sure you will find a reason to say people are cheating. By the way did anybody see Zanes RTs at Atco this weekend? Oh yea....he was footbraking. I guess we should start regulating his tire pressure!! And dont worry about Pete...he could beat you on a tricycle. (I think a tricycle is considered footbraking)!!!!!!! Either way 2-steps...no 2-steps people who are good are going to win. People who cant handle that complain!!!!! Either way I dont care what happens I just hate to see good names, drivers, families bashed for being successful.
Bryan

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The race at Noble,Oklahoma iks going to be too good to miss !!
Just for the match ups in the PITS !!!
ED VS THE WORLD !!!!!

His Buick wouldn't run the Index at Tulsa so maybe he'll bring his axle snapping four banger !!!

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Ed get your fat *** in your truck and come out to Virgina. We would all like to meet you! ED we can all help U feel the tree better, A good spot to start would be up his ***!! Get a life guy shut up sit back and relax

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Ed: He HAS you Idiot!! He's spent more than an "entry level" class car should, every time he gains ground, someone whines and the rules get changed to suit the minority. Quit whining and get some credentials behind you. There are a LOT of racers who NEVER see the internet stuff from NHRA or otherwise, I do NOT think they are reaching a TRUE cross section of racers with the Online BS. Mail every registered Stk/SS racer a ballot.


Fletch: Just WHO is cheating. I have a HARD time believing them with no proof. Why are names not mentioned??? It bothers me that they want to change rules based on the supposition that many are cheating without revealing their discoveries. They want us to just trust them???? I have a hard time trusting ANYONE without facts. Like Ed. Hee hee...



Kandra Villani
5329 STK/SS

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Kandra,

It's obvious, everyone who wins too frequently...one doesn't need proof, just ask Ed!

Apparently, I used to cheat better, or at least more often, than I currently do...I gotta get with the program...

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And I have a hard time believing a company such as Davis Technologies would take the time to not only develop a product for traction control, but to come up with a product specifically for drag racing. True, some classes allow traction control. If so, then why would they make a package that can be concealed to the size of a Bic lighter? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to make it in a larger package? Do you think Mr. Davis created this product because his market research told him there would be no customers? Watch the online video with Mr. Davis and Mr. Garlits. Obviously he knows his product does end up being installed were not allowed.

http://moretraction.com/traction.htm

NASCAR had the right idea. They saw the level of cheating would increase with the allowance of electronic devices so these items were never allowed. Spare us if all you can come up with is "then let's go back to dual points". Read section 8.2 under general reg's. Delay devices not allowed. Enforce the rule as written. Only a whacko attorney would be able to define a long travel / adjustable button or AXE button as allowable. Use common sense. Stock should not have any of these devices, including a 2-step. In Texas, that's a dance move. Has no place in Stock! Even 4 speeds should not have a 2-step. If you can't figure out how to maintain rpm, you shouldn't be in the lane next to me. stupid is stupid does

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Tim Griffeth,
Yes, unfortunately I really felt that one guy in particular was ill about it. I was surprised, he is a nice guy and very smart. I guess it is no different than argueing about politics, some people get heated up about that too.
I must agree with Dan Fletcher in his comment about better drivers will win more if two-steps and buttons get banned in 2008. Better drivers will win more, I am curious to see who they are, and I can't wait to see who is right and wrong on this whole subject.

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Dan: I'm sure anyone who can't win a couple rounds feels the others are cheating, I usually feel like I need to learn and got spanked appropriately! :-) I'm NOT saying I don't think there AREN'T cheaters, but according to the rules, aren't they supposed to have action taken against them, as individuals??? That is why I have a hard time with this whole thing. Button or not, 2 step or not, the principle remains, shouldn't being banned for a year or more from NHRA and having it published in ND and such be a good deterant? IF SOOOO many are cheating that they have to change to rule, rather than enforce it, I would have thought they would have made at least a FEW racers sacrificial lambs to make their point. THEN, I would have to agree with their move here. If 5 or 6 racers were caught and banned and it made public knowledge, and NHRA had informed everyone that because they are catching "x" number of racers at "x" amount of races, then they have every right in my book to make the change.

I just hate the way they change things, whether you agree with the 2 steps or not, until NOW they've been allowed.

The supposition that everyone is cheating has NO merit. Innocent until proven guilty, right???

Kandra

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Previous cheaters in NHRA racing have been dealt with, drum roll, rule changes or clarifications, sometimes even vacations away from racing! NHRA doesn't seem to want it known but it has happened and there have been reprucussions. Sorry, can't name names because the fact is NHRA didn't have the balls like IHRA to call a cheater a cheater! You would have to think NHRA tech is lame as a half blind, 3 legged dog to think they haven't found a few problems. Ask around tech.

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

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Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

It would only make sense for the best drivers to want buttons and two steps banned. Why let others without their DIVINE capabilities use equipment to compete against them. On the subject of cheating just because they do not have a list of caught cheaters does not in any way suggest there no cheaters. That would be like saying that Chuck D. had the one and only bogus shortblock at indy because he was the only one on the list. LouisJeffery 3225 stock IHRA

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

I can remotely understand the position of "if there are no buttons, it's much harder to have a delay".

However, do you really think that someone is going to hit the top bulb, while concealing their body and/or hand movement, hold the footbrake, and then release the footbrake on the bottom...without the starter and/or interested observers noticing that something doesn't look right. Do you really think that is going to go on for long without being detected?

But if you do...or if your position is that stock should be footbrake only (and I agree btw)...or for those that just somehow think that eliminating 2 steps will serve their own personal agenda (whatever it may be), please, get rid of them...for everyone...I'm all for it...level the playing field...make it as hard as possible to be good at this...

Then lets move on to another way that people are cheating (or perverting the very fiber of the class...feel free to choose any spin you'd like)...may I humbly suggest "blocking" as the next witch hunt...

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

dan youve been driving too many cars this year...no wonder your win % is drooping a bit... and it might be that new paint job, ,the big V on the door looks like a target to me > LOL !!

anyway i do not think banning 2 steps will have any effect on the better drivers, it might effect the better cheaters !

and i agree get rid on R.T. (and incremetal times)...

i also agree IF cheating is going on the button is only the tip of the iceberg... downtrack ET assistance is easier and more helpful

captain jack and the U/SA 60 chevy wagon

besides i cant stand all that popping and stuttering next to me on the starting line while my tree is coming down :)

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

,,

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

FAT ED, I Dan is cheating at poker.

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Tom,

What's the problem with keeping stock footbrake only, if you want to race with a button get in S/S or Comp where transbrakes and buttons should be used... I know everyone keeps telling me there's no -advantage to the two steps, then why do you need them ? Tim, you are right, this is not about cheating or trying to beat the best racers, it's about getting electronics out of Stock class.. Yes, I know the same guys will keep winning, you are right but not using a two-step..No-body is questioning that point, it's about using electronics...Those guys are just better than the rest of us, they make fewer mistakes and practice a hellva alot more than we do..Give them credit, they race more and are just better than the rest... I can't wait to see the real vote,because we only hearing from the ones who want to keep two-steps and a few who don't mind getting bashed... NHRA, holds all the cards.....Time will tell, I thought more racers would be upset with FI cars in their class... Wait til next years opener and the first class race of the year...It should be very interesting in 2007..... enjoy !!!!! Dave...1033/stock

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I just don't see what the big deal is with this. Why all of a sudden do people want to ban two-steps and everything else. Two-steps at this point are a part of stock. Where were all of you guys 17 years ago when people started using them in stock. Where were your complaints then. I footbrake so it wont affect my driving. Other peoples driving may be affected, but probobly not. I'm not a purist at all so this may be offensive to some. It would be nice to have the opportunity to try a two-step in the future if the class doesn't get totally **....! By people who want to change everything they don't like about it. There are some things that bother me about stock, but I deal with it. Just go out and race! Maybe some of you guys would be as good as the people who must be cheating because they use a two-step! Get real! Go get some seat time and maybe you'll get that good! It's a matter of preference. Some like to use a two-step and some dont. People should still have the choice to choose how they want to race and what they want to use. How is it fair to start trying to change rules because you dont like them. How is that fair to the other racers.

Ryan Horensky
1273 C/SA

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

I know I probably need more seat time. I'd like to make, oh... about 9 passes at MIR this weekend. ;)

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Beard...I was hoping chad was going to show up but I think he is staying at motormile to torment me,,,and I tryed to tell him, the way I have been drivin,,,he is safe to mis a race

are racing stock??? SSS??? or both???

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Michael, I wasn't referring to you! Your stats speak for themselves and everybody knows what a killer footbrake racer you are. The point is that people get on here and want this changed and that changed, etc. How are rule changes fair to others racers. If NHRA sent a Q & A out to every stock eliminator racer that currently races, and then made a decision, I would be fine with whatever decision was made. I would have to be. Two-steps are not a new thing. So if someone doesn't want to use one...don't. I don't see why this is an issue all of a sudden. And anyway, MiCHAEL....You race IHRA. This rule would have no affect on your racing whatsoever. Everyone is entitled to there opinion. So I am stating my opinion. I wasn't referring to footbrakers either in my previous post. I footbrake and it is my choice to do so. Everyone should have that choice to pick and choose how they want to race and what they want to use.

Ryan Horensky
1273 C/SA

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I`ll answer Ed`s question,then I`m done with this thread. I have spent money on my car the last several years. A few years ago,I went through a tranny problem that occured after I had someone freshen it,I basically sat out the entire year in Stock,and I had an NHRA Gold Card from winning the Summit Super Pro Nat`l Championship the season before. After that season,I`ve worked on getting the chassis upgraded,new springs,shocks etc.,just to get it up to date,and it did help the car`s consistancy. Finally,after 7 seasons on a motor I built,I decided to purchase a motor this spring,and unfortunately,it was good for about 60 passes before it spun a rod bearing. I think I`ve spent close to $4000 in the last few years,and now have a car that won`t run. I know some people think my combo is a good combo to go fast,but I can only afford what I can do myself,and from what I know. There have been a couple of other Stock racers that have offered help,and I do appreciate it greatly,but before I start over this winter,I`ll have to see what happens with the new rules proposals,and go from there. Lane

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Lane,
You don't owe explainations to ANYBODY, much less O'brien!


Ryan, I agree with you except one thing. Racers went over the edge with adjustable buttons. Anybody but a half-witt know's that a long-throw or similar device creates an advantage. Advantages are one thing, defying the rule book is another. The rule book under general regulations is pretty clear on the subject so I have a real hard time understanding why racer's aren't just thrown out during tech. I think NHRA is saying "we gave you an inch, you took a mile" and "now it's time to reel it back in".

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

No 2 Steps...no Buttons.. Fine...but At Least Let Us Have The Option Of Knocking The Top Bulb Out.any Car That Needs Wheelie Bars Should Not Have A Problem On The Bottom Bulb Hitting The Tree.but What About The Other Half Of The Field.whats The Big Deal ? I Email Bob Lang Div 1 & Asked If Nhra Would Ever Consider Changing The Ruling,he Said Probably Not Due Too To Much Game Playing With Deep Staggers.so I Show My Hand By Writing Deep In The Window ,i Finish My Burn Out And Guess What? My Opponnet Has 2 Bulbs Turned On Waiting For Me.so We All Know The Auto Start Kicks In When The Third Bulb Is Lite Need Less To Say You Know Where Im Going With This........so Who's Playing Games Nhra?? Other Then A Handful Of Talented Drivers
Tibor,jody,etc. How Many 12.00 And Slower Cars Are Really Making Any Noise?? Fast Cars Hit The Tree Better...period Give The Driver The Option On Where To Stage There Car.

Joe Mocci
M/sa

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Ryan,

You say that two steps have been around for 17 years, I don't know if its been that long? I do know, they didn't ask us about it then either.... It's their playground and their rules... Dave...1033/stock

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TG writes >> are racing stock??? SSS??? or both???

Just Stock. I ran my SSS number at Pageland Dragway, and missed the title by one round. Won the next-to-last points race to pull within one round, then got busted 1st round round at the last points race... bought back and won the race. :o "Oops!" I won the Footbrake championship at Rockingham, so I'll still have the 'regular' Race of Champions at the Div. 9 Bracket Finals.

Ryan writes >> You race IHRA. This rule would have no affect on your racing whatsoever.

It does, since IHRA typically follows NHRA's lead on things. (except the AHFS!) LOL Although, since I footbrake, too, it doesn't affect *my* driving style either way.

Oh, BTW, we're up to THREE footbrakers that have won championships in delay box classes this year now - Billy Kirpins, Jr. at Lebanon Valley, Chris Plott at Mooresville, and Tim Davis at Fayetteville. I suppose one could argue that they have proven that delay boxes are not an advantage, and thus should be permitted in all classes. ;)

Dave writes >> two steps have been around for 17 years, I don't know if its been that long? I do know, they didn't ask us about it then either....

Hm! Didn't know that.

Quite honestly, I don't care *that* much either way. It's simple preference, and I enjoy the intellectual discussion. I *am* surprised that Stock is such an anomoly. It's the only class in the country that permits a two-step, and two-step only. Everything else is either pure Footbrake, No-Box (ala Super Stock), or Box. I'm surprised that two-step proponents don't just ask for a transbrake to go with it.

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Everyone should have that choice to pick and choose how they want to race and what they want to use.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________-


I wish that were so,,,,I could get Nhra to let me run a toilet on a stocker,,,,with my delay box a matty controler,,,,LOL

no sense arguing over this,,,Ive deleted most of my post and this will be the last on this topic,,,,,ONLY reason they are still legal is because some U/SA stocker isnt wearing the field out using one,,,,,Most 2 car teams want to keep them cause its an easy transition from stock to SS or from the .90`s classes ,,,,
alot of racers just dont understand what its doing......the results dont lie,,,,,RT`s in the last 2 years have gotten tremendously better,,,,but only in the faster cars,,,,,slower cars have stayed about the same,,,,,,its not a fluke,,,its because of the 2 steps/buttons,,,,,,just for the record,,, There is a way that slow cars can utilize that advantages of flash racing off the 2step/button,,,its not popular with the couple slow car drivers that I know,,,but it can be done,,,,I guess it all boils down the the racer and his prioritys,,,,,,,,,Ive talk to quite a few and the surprisingly enough,,,,,,most arent that interested in winning,,,,they just want to go fast against the index,,,,I cant conceive this idea, but to each his own, I guess,,,,,,Ive jsut always been in a position,,,if I dont win,,,I cant race,,,,,,,,,,just never went to the races as a "vacation" like a large majority of stock racers do,,,Maybe I take racing too serious,,,,But I found out a long time ago,,,,you treat it like a job,,,,you will end up with a payday

Re: Cheating [2-step And Buttons]
 

Seems like a prety good summary on the subject!