Re: First VS Worst red light
 

As true as that may be, at the same time you could have a A/SA that barely runs the index getting a slight statistical advantage over the baddest I/SA in the country just because it's quicker, but not "better performing".

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

Food for thought.
NHRA makes changes to the format all the time .
Not the same as allowing more goodies. (All due respect to my brother BP)
i.e. Space age materials not allowed in Pro/S , but allowed in Stock.


When R/T's started to appear on time slips , I'm sure the Mopar backed teams didn't like it one bit, having practiced R/T's at their exclusive test sessions.

When the 3 amber tree came out, I was driving a stick car, without a 2 step. I was used to having time to look back and forth between the tree and the tach. I didn't like it, but had to adapt.

I don't see where Tru-start in effect, would change much of anything. If you're looking around, instead of being locked in, I don't know what to tell you..Maybe Sal or Peter could help you ..;-)

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

From the responses, that sounds about right.

I just looked at last year's 128 car Indy Stock Q-list. I could be off slightly. But I counted 62 cars that ran 10.50 or quicker. That doesn't miss 50/50 by much.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

So, I'm assuming that the majority of quick guys are against, & the majority of slow guys are for.

And from the tone of several quick guys who are against, they seem to feel that those who are for, should quit class racing & go bracket racing.

And I assume that would include even the slow guys who have flogged the same combo for years, set nat records, & can still run more than 1.2 under, if they had to.

Just a simple observation, from a reader & non-voter.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

I was making a point. An analogy. You allow worst redlight in heads up, but not during other passes. Why?
Yes no red light in heads up would kill any chance for me to win.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

Asking to get parts on my car legal to go faster is a personal benefit. Asking 25 HP off my car only is a personal benefit. True start makes every one from trying to not red light. Now it's just the slow car that have to worry. Sounds like the current way is a personal benefit for the faster of 2 cars.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

As I was reading through the responses, Jason's response is exactly what was going through my head! I will deal with the rules however they are decided. We all can't be as good as Jeff who has never been distracted by a slower car leaving! I had issues with that for years and have worked my butt off at becoming as focused as possible but it's still difficult. I say leave it as is!

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

I would never say I never had trouble with slow cars, but I worked it out and its a non issue. Im just Joe Average guy so I feel if I can do it anyone can do it if they practice and try.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

If you remove all thoughts about which car has an advantage in which situations (because that shouldn't be a factor), the current/historical red light rule is unlike any other rule in handicap racing. TruSTART makes it conform to the standard template.

If the violation is the same, the loser is who did it first. If they are different violations, the loser is who did the worst one. If it is the same rule violation but is measurable, the loser is who had the worst violation.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

I just want to say thank you to everybody who has expressed their opinion on this subject in a meaningful way, for or against TrueStart. My intention when creating this thread was to get the honest opinions of fellow class racers. Especially since a vast majority of the members on here have years, if not decades more experience than myself.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

True Start!!!! Should have been this way all along.

Take breaking out!! Would it make since to say who ever breaks out first loses? No, same goes for Red lights IMO.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

so..... here is my two cents on this topic. I race a slow car and a fast car.

To the group of people that say s/ss is a performance based class, I completely agree that it is performance based. However, your vehicle can be awesome performance wise, but the driver needs to be awesome performance wise as well. Your car alone does not win races in the format we currently race in. The performance of your car, coupled with good driving wins rounds and races.

I agree that the theme seems to be the faster car people seem to feel that they have earned the "advantage" to leave 2nd. Taking away the risk of loosing on the first red light.

Im not too concerned with what is considered "fair" in the whiny sense, Because driving is part of the equation in winning, I AM concerned with my competitors execution.

Lets use current super pro or delay box racing as a example. BOTH drivers stage and are set up for kill on the tree. The current system will have the driver with the slower car loose if they go red. BUT - BOTH competitors brought their skill and fought at the tree for a good light. No one slacked off - no one saw a red light and "relaxed".

Thats all Im asking for. No gimmies. In s/ss racing off the bottom bulb, the car leaving first has to hit the tree. The car leaving second from time to time gets to see his competitor go red- they did not even have to execute. They did not have to put it on the line and try to be a good driver.

That is not rewarding the better driver. It is only rewarding a quicker dial in. There are give and takes in either situation. Slow cars get a clean tree, that is nice. Less things to divert ones attention. So, I got a clean tree in my slow car..... now I get to watch the race happen behind me witch can be more difficult than watching it unfold in front of me. There's your trade off.

The performance based argument can be looked at another way as well.

If I have an "p" car that runs 1.20 under,and race a "B" car that runs .4 under. I still have to leave first, I have put more time, energy and effort (money) into making my car go further under the index, but I still have the disadvantage of going red first.

Because of the format we currently race in, I just want to know that the driver next to me has to cut a light under pressure,under the same circumstances that I ( the slow car) does.

Tru Start makes that possible. Imagine being at a sharpshooting range. Its you and some other guy in the final. You get 4 shots at a target, if you miss the target on one shot, you automatically loose. Your competitor does not even have to fire their gun. Some of you will say that the first guy blew it. Under those rules, we would never really know who the better marksman was on that day.Oh, and you went first cause his gun was " better" than yours.

Its a little more than 2 cents but being part of this sport my entire life, I like to see people win on their own merit and abilities, not on technicalities. Winning by your opponent going red is a technicality. And if you were dialed quicker- what did you actually do to win that round.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

So if your opponent redlights against you ,it is not a win,but a "technicality"?
Maybe there should be a rerun anytime somebody redlights?

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

You can't win a race that never started. You can advance to the next round on a single.

To win you gotta beat someone in a race. A race starts when the clocks start in BOTH lanes.

If the racer in the other lane is tossed for doing a burnout passed the starting line, and you're given a single. You didn't win the race, you advanced to the next round on a technicality. It's the equivalent as if the racer in the other lane breaks in the water box, you're given an opponent broke single. Hypothetically, if either of these examples occurred in the final round, you'd win the event on an opponent broke single, or a technicality.

I could care less, BUT you want the rules to make sense.

If the rules don't make sense, they're arbitrary mutating into communism.

It's in everyone's best interests, the rules aren't arbitrary.

https://i.imgur.com/PBqt4um.png

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

Why are some trying to change the rules? I believe its because those with a slower car either feel it will give them an advantage, or I would say a second chace at winning the round. Even though they were red they can win if the other person is more red.

Being faster car has it's advantages, but one thing they don't have is a clean tree or starting line. Sometime watching that slow car go out 1 or 2 seconds or more distracts someones tree, or watching the other car move as you are in the middle of your tree coming down will distract you.

I've heard people for years say they would rather leave first and have the advantage of a " clean tree", and other say they would rather leave second and chase.

I think the way the rule is and has been for years is an equalizer. Leaving first gives you a clean tree, but for some being the chase car is a different advantage. You can't have it all, but some want to tip the scales or change the rules for what has worked for a long long time.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

If True Start is put into service with S & SS it will a begin the slow death of the classes and several manufactures will suffer as well. Why build / maintain a quick car ? No need to look for more power over the Winter so why order new cylinder heads or converter or gears or headers or etc. Maybe should take 20 degrees of timing out at the hit so it will never spin again or leave the line in second gear. Real excitement right there.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

Are you honestly meaning to say that the primary reason anyone has ever built a fast car is so they can pick up one round win every couple years where they were red, but their opponent was also red and dialed slower?

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

The death of class cars and detuning due to Truestart. Are you serious? You cant be serious.
I know of plenty of fast cars that detune for a bad track. Maybe the death of class cars will come from poor starting line conditions. Guys build cars that run 1.50 under and 1000ft race. AHFS should have killed class racing by your thoughts.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

No, not the primary reason, also I think it's more than a round win every couple of years.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

Been racing in Truestart events for a couple years and Im a 10 flat car. I spot out I would guess 80% of the time and no reversal for me. So yes it does not happen very often.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

[QUOTE=Hacksaw;621853. Why build / maintain a quick car ? [/QUOTE]

Same as now ...To spend as much money as possible
To survive a heads up run ..
To win class..
To do a big wheelie and get a kick in the azz

None of that would change.

So far , we have learned that there are so many advantages to leaving first , that they deserve to be in first red /lose jeopardy...Interesting take.

Re: First VS Worst red light
 

I went from a 8 second super pro car to a 13 / 14 second stocker. I think the advantage at the finish line being the chase car most of the time is more of an advantage than not always having a clean tree. Besides, my car is slow enough that I'm well out of the fast cars sight at the tree most of the time. As a slow car, I would vote for tru start if asked but it really doesn't matter that much to me either way.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632