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-   -   New Technical Inspection Addendum (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=78627)

James Perrone 02-22-2021 07:10 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Please don’t bring up the supposed PRO drivers that win a lot
This is about the new technology that is available msd grid race pak
New car etc..
When the new car s came out they were nice cars that weren’t so deadly constant.
Now these car print time slips ...like a computer. 😂

GTS340 02-22-2021 07:47 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Very few of "those pro Drivers" Build cars anymore if ever these days. Lost art! Let me see them build a new car 2010 and above. Whip out the pipe bending and the tig welder. Hold the wheel tight!

e vassar 02-23-2021 03:33 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
We can settle this right now. I have a BS3 in my car, I will pay a thousand dollars to anyone who can tune it to "print time slips" with my foot on the floor out the back door. ... cause my driving aint getting it done!...but seriously, I can see the logic for cheating in big money bracket racing To risk it to win stk and a Wally at a divisional or even national event? ...really?

Billy Nees 02-23-2021 08:32 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e vassar (Post 635060)
I can see the logic for cheating in big money bracket racing To risk it to win stk and a Wally at a divisional or even national event?
Ego.......................

CJ McDonald 9564 02-23-2021 09:20 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
I have a close friend that purchased a stocker and the previous owner had left a delay box hidden behind a panel. Not calling any names. Just saying that it’s happening.

Billy Nees 02-23-2021 09:57 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e vassar (Post 635060)
I can see the logic for cheating in big money bracket racing To risk it to win stk and a Wally at a divisional or even national event?
Ya know, I feel like I have to add to my previous answer to this.
The vast majority of S/SS Racers in this day-and-age don't build their own stuff nor do they have any financial stake in the chassis and engine shops that are building their stuff so you're not doing this to further your own business interests. You can count on one hand the number of S/SS Racers who are actually still trying to make a living by S/SS Racing.
I have a bunch (not a whole bunch)of Wallys in a few different sizes and they finally got stuck in a closet because my "Sweetie" got tired of dusting them and I can't figure out how to cook and eat them.
When you go to an event, the first thing that you see is the number of motor homes and coaches in the pits(that don't come cheap) towing all different sizes and shapes of trailers (some of which don't come cheap) that are carrying anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5 racecars (most of which don't come cheap) all for a winners purse of less than $2,000!
Now if you're doing it for family time together then I think it's great. If you're doing it because you've retired and you want to see the country, go for it! It's a big, beautiful country out there. Unless there's one or two reasons that I've missed then you're doing this to feed your ego.

Eric Merryfield 02-23-2021 10:33 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ McDonald 9564 (Post 635064)
I have a close friend that purchased a stocker and the previous owner had left a delay box hidden behind a panel. Not calling any names. Just saying that it’s happening.
I'm learning new stuff every day. I was under the impression that a delay box worked off a tranbrake, getting it to work consistently off a brake petal or a clutch petal would be an impressive feat. More trouble than its worth, just get better at the tree!

Back to the Addendum, I'm seeing it be a Tech Question, do you have a driveshaft sensor? Yes, you get a star next to your name for time slip analysis, and further inspection if warranted, no big deal.

This will be a 95% EFI thing

How they administer the new "E" Tear down procedure could cause some drama.....

How do we best date code, pull, and prove the tune that is currently on the ECU in the car, is the same as when it went down the track.......Not sure, but that will be on the Racer....When legality is in doubt, your out.

I'm 100% for it, keep people honest, its why they don't allow driveshaft sensors at some of the big $ races.

Eric

e vassar 02-23-2021 11:31 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 635066)
Ya know, I feel like I have to add to my previous answer to this.
The vast majority of S/SS Racers in this day-and-age don't build their own stuff nor do they have any financial stake in the chassis and engine shops that are building their stuff so you're not doing this to further your own business interests. You can count on one hand the number of S/SS Racers who are actually still trying to make a living by S/SS Racing.
I have a bunch (not a whole bunch)of Wallys in a few different sizes and they finally got stuck in a closet because my "Sweetie" got tired of dusting them and I can't figure out how to cook and eat them.
When you go to an event, the first thing that you see is the number of motor homes and coaches in the pits(that don't come cheap) towing all different sizes and shapes of trailers (some of which don't come cheap) that are carrying anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5 racecars (most of which don't come cheap) all for a winners purse of less than $2,000!
Now if you're doing it for family time together then I think it's great. If you're doing it because you've retired and you want to see the country, go for it! It's a big, beautiful country out there. Unless there's one or two reasons that I've missed then you're doing this to feed your ego.
Ego: (noun) An inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others.
Your consciousness of your own identity.

Personally I cant think of too many things that would feed my ego more than holding the Wally at the end of day. Unless I had to somehow cheat to do it. Then it would be meaningless.

Kent Pascoe 02-23-2021 11:51 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Merryfield (Post 635072)
I'm learning new stuff every day. I was under the impression that a delay box worked off a tranbrake, getting it to work consistently off a brake petal or a clutch petal would be an impressive feat. More trouble than its worth, just get better at the tree!

Back to the Addendum, I'm seeing it be a Tech Question, do you have a driveshaft sensor? Yes, you get a star next to your name for time slip analysis, and further inspection if warranted, no big deal.

This will be a 95% EFI thing

How they administer the new "E" Tear down procedure could cause some drama.....

How do we best date code, pull, and prove the tune that is currently on the ECU in the car, is the same as when it went down the track.......Not sure, but that will be on the Racer....When legality is in doubt, your out.

I'm 100% for it, keep people honest, its why they don't allow driveshaft sensors at some of the big $ races.

Eric
A delay box can also be used to "delay" the low side two step on the hit, for those tracks that have marginal bite .

Dave Gantz 02-23-2021 12:13 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
"Winners never cheat and cheaters never win."

Well, I guess that's out...

Billy Nees 02-23-2021 07:03 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Gantz (Post 635085)
"Winners never cheat and cheaters never win."
You sure? Oh, we're talking Racing not politics.

bubski 02-23-2021 09:12 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTX JOHN (Post 635018)
Yes = There are a lot of great drivers in Stock/SS.
My son is one of them - I am not one of them!

However, It breaks my Heart to see him have to compete
with other good drivers who have electronics that tip the
scales so far in their favor against him.

You can come up and inspect everything on our cars anytime
anyone asks.

We have the funds and know where to find the tech to implement
the changes necessary to compete at the highest level with the other
great drivers.

We discussed it a couple years ago and indeed I was considering
so AND I was pissed off enough to do it after over nearly 60 years
in this sport of following the rules.

I brought it up to my son Jon = He said NO WAY would he participate
in doing so and please do not bring it up again!
Sorry but according to the MASSES on Class Racer you must be out of your mind !! HAHA !! Everyones on the up n up Theirs absolutely no cheaters just great drivers and fantastic head and block millers !!

Mike Taylor 3601 02-24-2021 01:23 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Two things I can tell you is about 10-12 years I had a customer done engine for 8.5X26 tire class... 5.17 1/8 like it was on a rail... they couldn't go any quicker..so finally they added 10lbs boost....go or smoke tires..5.17 on a rail..they were scratching their heads....their tuner showed them how to change run/parameters in grid..5,08 but not on a rail anymore... as long as it had those one set of parameters...5,17 on a rail no matter what...

2nd.. friends running NMCA pro mod type car told me track was throwing them.. here local starting line tight loose at 1/8.... NMCA greasy starting line greasy.. 1/8 tight said everyone was using traction control so they navigate greasy first half...he didn't have and struggled... he got one and was trying to get baseline here local...wrong number of magnets on driveshaft entered between rounds... basically made run half throttle..because traction control thought it was spinning..
so I got on Davis technology website and I was pissed... FIRST demonstration was showing data for 500'' NHRA Pro Stock..
it does traction control or consistency....
my opinion... a car is running dead on dial.... MPH is all over place pay attention..

SSDiv6 02-24-2021 11:55 AM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Taylor 3601 (Post 635130)
Two things I can tell you is about 10-12 years I had a customer done engine for 8.5X26 tire class... 5.17 1/8 like it was on a rail... they couldn't go any quicker..so finally they added 10lbs boost....go or smoke tires..5.17 on a rail..they were scratching their heads....their tuner showed them how to change run/parameters in grid..5,08 but not on a rail anymore... as long as it had those one set of parameters...5,17 on a rail no matter what...

2nd.. friends running NMCA pro mod type car told me track was throwing them.. here local starting line tight loose at 1/8.... NMCA greasy starting line greasy.. 1/8 tight said everyone was using traction control so they navigate greasy first half...he didn't have and struggled... he got one and was trying to get baseline here local...wrong number of magnets on driveshaft entered between rounds... basically made run half throttle..because traction control thought it was spinning..
so I got on Davis technology website and I was pissed... FIRST demonstration was showing data for 500'' NHRA Pro Stock..
it does traction control or consistency....
my opinion... a car is running dead on dial.... MPH is all over place pay attention..
Also, all these add-on's interface with the MSD Grid system and all brands of EFI, with the exception of Motec. Motec already has a lot of these features as part of their higher end ECU's.

As regards to the Davis Technology offerings, many of them work with non-EFI cars as long as you can read the driveshaft or wheel speed. They are also self-learning after you have set them up.

gmeyer 02-24-2021 05:12 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSDiv6 (Post 635151)
Also, all these add-on's interface with the MSD Grid system and all brands of EFI, with the exception of Motec. Motec already has a lot of these features as part of their higher end ECU's.

As regards to the Davis Technology offerings, many of them work with non-EFI cars as long as you can read the driveshaft or wheel speed. They are also self-learning after you have set them up.
I think its time to order one up

Billy Nees 02-24-2021 06:39 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Ya know, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (why even ask!) but when did it become legal that you could use a "data logger" during Eliminations? I thought that the "data logger" had to be out of the car during Eliminations. And when did "the grid" become legal?

bubski 02-24-2021 07:41 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 635180)
Ya know, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (why even ask!) but when did it become legal that you could use a "data logger" during Eliminations? I thought that the "data logger" had to be out of the car during Eliminations. And when did "the grid" become legal?
Hard saying not knowing !! Im thinking this became "legal" sometime in between SS head porting , chamber mods , and whacking off your intake flanges on your heads !!! Kinda like after all those years it took to say no NOS in pro stock !!

e vassar 02-24-2021 07:59 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 635180)
Ya know, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (why even ask!) but when did it become legal that you could use a "data logger" during Eliminations? I thought that the "data logger" had to be out of the car during Eliminations. And when did "the grid" become legal?
That would be tough on some of us since the one box not only records data, also operates injectors coil packs etc . It is legal to record data,but not legal to display driveshaft , wheel speed etc to driver during run.

SSDiv6 02-24-2021 08:15 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e vassar (Post 635188)
That would be tough on some of us since the one box not only records data, also operates injectors coil packs etc . It is legal to record data,but not legal to display driveshaft , wheel speed etc to driver during run.
You do not need to display the data during the run; the ECU can be programmed to use the inputs to perform specific actions.

Lenny5160 02-24-2021 08:18 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
The fully detailed run data for national events and most divisionals has been public for a few years now.

Anybody see anything fishy in there?

SSDiv6 02-24-2021 08:21 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 635180)
Ya know, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (why even ask!) but when did it become legal that you could use a "data logger" during Eliminations? I thought that the "data logger" had to be out of the car during Eliminations. And when did "the grid" become legal?
It's not the data logging itself, which is monitoring and recording data to be examined later on. It is the ECU data acquisition portion of the signals and waveforms from sensors and the processing of the signals to obtain a desired result.

e vassar 02-24-2021 08:38 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSDiv6 (Post 635192)
You do not need to display the data during the run; the ECU can be programmed to use the inputs to perform specific actions.
SHOW ME HOW!.....Sorry couldn't resist
But yes you are right. ..sensor data controls injector duration, timing,etc to repeat previous runs... at least thats the theory I guess.

SSDiv6 02-24-2021 08:50 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e vassar (Post 635198)
SHOW ME HOW!.....Sorry couldn't resist
But yes you are right. ..sensor data controls injector duration, timing,etc to repeat previous runs... at least thats the theory I guess.
NOPE! :D

I do not condone or support the use of devices to deceive or cheat. However, when I managed the Trophy Truck engine shop, my tuner had a background with import car drag racing and he had developed lots of programs to control high horsepower import cars so they could hook and go straight down the track, especially FWD cars.

He used similar parameters on the Trophy Truck ECU software that helped the trucks perform better at races such as Baja. Because of the features, his preferred ECU is Motec which happens to be one of the most expensive ECU's in the market.

gmeyer 02-24-2021 09:17 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Lets say all these things are true Does NHRA have the means to police it and or stop it i don't think so

SSDiv6 02-24-2021 09:44 PM
Re: New Technical Inspection Addendum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmeyer (Post 635200)
Lets say all these things are true Does NHRA have the means to police it and or stop it i don't think so
I put tuners at the same level as hackers... :D
OEM's have even tried too many times to prevent the aftermarket to access their ECU's...still, there are many that find the way around.


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