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-   -   New FWD weight breaks! (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=80484)

Ellis V Buth 10-26-2021 10:40 AM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 650769)
Actually I was talking about Bill O'Conner's car..Shouldn't have called him Billy .Everybody knows who Billy is :-0
I almost went the Ecotec /stick route myself..They are everywhere.. Then I found the Escort , thankfully..I really didn't want to go that fast in the eliminator ;-)

We're going in circles now ..Still want to see the evidence that automatic FWD's are more consistent.
Oh yeah...I agree. I don't think there's any real usable data that'll show a FWD is more consistent than your average stocker...I think the most consistent cars in stock are going to be in the 10.50-12.00 range (slow enough that spin isn't a major concern, quick enough that wind and weather don't affect them quite as much)
Perhaps if you compare to the other 14.00 and slower stockers, you could make that case for FWD vs RWD in that context.
I know for sure that my Ranger is FAR from "consistent" most of the time...but it is at least fairly predictable for the most part.

Mark Yacavone 10-26-2021 12:18 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis V Buth (Post 650793)
Oh yeah...I agree. I don't think there's any real usable data that'll show a FWD is more consistent than your average stocker...I think the most consistent cars in stock are going to be in the 10.50-12.00 range (slow enough that spin isn't a major concern, quick enough that wind and weather don't affect them quite as much)
Perhaps if you compare to the other 14.00 and slower stockers, you could make that case for FWD vs RWD in that context.
I know for sure that my Ranger is FAR from "consistent" most of the time...but it is at least fairly predictable for the most part.
I think the most consistent cars in stock are going to be ....EFI and slippery

Billy Nees 10-26-2021 01:25 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 650812)
I think the most consistent cars in stock are going to be ....EFI and slippery
Ya know, when I started out with this Cavalier project, it was because it was/is something different that would put me "out of my comfort zone" and let me learn something. Well, the biggest thing that I have learned or been taught by this car is how consistent OBDII cars are and how aerodynamic they are. I now know why the new stuff is becoming so prevalent and why there are so many Cavaliers/Cobalts in SS/GT.
Of all of the combos that I have played with over the years, this stupid little car is, hands down the most consistent thing that I have driven and that INCLUDES my Bracket cars!
When I can keep from going red, I have never in my life won or lost (mostly lost) more races by .00 something. What ever my weather station says it will go, it usually will and it is no where as affected by the wind as my other stuff even though it doesn't make as much power. The biggest problem that I have (other than fouling) is trusting the numbers and NOT holding a bit. Old habits die hard.

Ellis V Buth 10-26-2021 02:40 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 650812)
I think the most consistent cars in stock are going to be ....EFI and slippery
Fair...My only concern on the faster cars is their propensity to spin on lesser track surfaces. But that is becoming less of a concern with a lot of these newer cars and the technology.

I certainly agree that the majority of those cars are likely to be more consistent in the class these days.

doglover44 10-26-2021 08:27 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
How many FWD stockers are running these days ?

Dave Noll 10-26-2021 09:50 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Last year in Nitro Joes stat's, I think there were 5 or 6. Those are running in either National or Divisional event's. There's Billy's Cavalier, Yac's Escort, My Escort, Polhill's early Escort, The Underdog early Escort, then who knows how many others built but sitting or being built. I may have doubled up on some of those.

Dave Noll 10-26-2021 10:21 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 650768)
I'd rather Billy put an 8" torque converter in it with a shift improver kit
Mine has a 5 speed in it but I have everything to put an Automatic in mine. I asked a well known supplier to build a 7" converter but they didn't have access to a pump drive hub or the spline inserts for this particular trans/converter. He told me he built several Mopar FWD units for some series back east that ran a bunch of Neons, Horizon's etc.

GarysZ24 10-26-2021 10:38 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 650769)
Actually I was talking about Bill O'Conner's car..Shouldn't have called him Billy .Everybody knows who Billy is :-0
I almost went the Ecotec /stick route myself..They are everywhere.. Then I found the Escort , thankfully..I really didn't want to go that fast in the eliminator ;-)

We're going in circles now ..Still want to see the evidence that automatic FWD's are more consistent.
I think Ellis misunderstood what I was saying. I was referring to FWD automatic Stockers vs FWD manual Stockers. I mentioned all of the recent year FWD Stocker racers who have been going rounds (and Billy just added credibility to my opinion) , and based on what I've seen, all of them have automatics in them. We've been going more rounds than manual trannied Stockers, because our cars are easier to dial what they'll actually run. I wasn't sure about Ron's car, so I looked up this years Indy and saw that he and Owen's Grand Am were automatics, to go with Bill's, Billy's, mine, Brent's and Stan's cars as well. Who's been running a manual that has been going rounds against the RWD contingent like we have? I can't think of anyone, and I try to follow everyone who campaigns a FWD Stocker as well. The race results show it for all of us.

Mark Yacavone 10-26-2021 11:22 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 650853)
I think Ellis misunderstood what I was saying. I was referring to FWD automatic Stockers vs FWD manual Stockers. I mentioned all of the recent year FWD Stocker racers who have been going rounds (and Billy just added credibility to my opinion) , and based on what I've seen, all of them have automatics in them. We've been going more rounds than manual trannied Stockers, because our cars are easier to dial what they'll actually run. I wasn't sure about Ron's car, so I looked up this years Indy and saw that he and Owen's Grand Am were automatics, to go with Bill's, Billy's, mine, Brent's and Stan's cars as well. Who's been running a manual that has been going rounds against the RWD contingent like we have? I can't think of anyone, and I try to follow everyone who campaigns a FWD Stocker as well. The race results show it for all of us.
Now you're missing the point . I never said FWD automatics couldn't go rounds. Especially when there are no sticks out there.Dave Noll has been local so far.
The guy in Co. went a few rounds this year. Polhill has been locked down, but has gone deep at Indy several times. Bill Drevo won a Divisional, and don't forget the biggest FWD winner yet. All of this means bupkis ..I know what I see, watching races with all the info right in front of me.
You're not going to convince me stick cars are less consistent. I've been winning races with them for almost 50 years.
Maybe you can convince Chris Knudsen or Brad Zaskowski ;-)

tscheerer 10-27-2021 10:46 AM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 650767)
I hope you take their advice (given both have proven for many years that they're amongst the sharpest tools in the shed so to speak-I wish Billy was an Arizonan that's for sure, as he was helpful to my car 2-3yrs ago. Marks Monte Carlo gave me the mindset to take the space-saver wheels and put front runners on them, which was also what helped my car get to where it was last year, and be more competitive now), and go for it. I'd sure like to see or read about your car out here with us, so I hope you'll get going and do it!
So how much ET was gained from using the space saver wheels and front runners? When I was running a 94 Grand Am in C/FS over 10 yrs ago I never did that, but always wondered how much it was worth. Still have the car and was thinking about putting it back together.

Ellis V Buth 10-27-2021 01:20 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 650853)
I think Ellis misunderstood what I was saying. I was referring to FWD automatic Stockers vs FWD manual Stockers. I mentioned all of the recent year FWD Stocker racers who have been going rounds (and Billy just added credibility to my opinion) , and based on what I've seen, all of them have automatics in them. We've been going more rounds than manual trannied Stockers, because our cars are easier to dial what they'll actually run. I wasn't sure about Ron's car, so I looked up this years Indy and saw that he and Owen's Grand Am were automatics, to go with Bill's, Billy's, mine, Brent's and Stan's cars as well. Who's been running a manual that has been going rounds against the RWD contingent like we have? I can't think of anyone, and I try to follow everyone who campaigns a FWD Stocker as well. The race results show it for all of us.
Ah, in the banter I did miss the point between you and Yac indeed. My apologies! I believe the current majority of FWD stockers are automatics. The one exception I can think of right off is Polhill, but he's been stuck in Canada for the past couple years. But he definitely knows how to drive his stick shift car and put the RWD guys on the trailer...

Dave Noll 10-27-2021 09:50 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis V Buth (Post 650893)
I believe the current majority of FWD stockers are automatics. The one exception I can think of right off is Polhill,
Yac's & mine are 5 speed sticks, besides Polhills earning us 100lbs extra to carry.

GarysZ24 10-27-2021 10:17 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Noll (Post 650852)
Mine has a 5 speed in it but I have everything to put an Automatic in mine. I asked a well known supplier to build a 7" converter but they didn't have access to a pump drive hub or the spline inserts for this particular trans/converter. He told me he built several Mopar FWD units for some series back east that ran a bunch of Neons, Horizon's etc.
Was that "Turbo Action", because I know them as being the authority of Mopar Trannies (especially back in the '90's to the 2K's). I wonder if "A1 Performance Transmissions" and Converters could build you one. Better yet, I wonder what Brent or Stan, and Bill O'Connor use in their cars? I remember my engine builder Verle of "Verle Stevens Enterprises", was told by Marv Ripes (the founder of A1), to have my Turbo 125 converted from lock-up to non-lock-up, and he built me an 8" unit, that stahled up to 3600rpms. Try them, if neither of those two were the one you spoke of?

GarysZ24 10-27-2021 10:30 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tscheerer (Post 650882)
So how much ET was gained from using the space saver wheels and front runners? When I was running a 94 Grand Am in C/FS over 10 yrs ago I never did that, but always wondered how much it was worth. Still have the car and was thinking about putting it back together.
I feel I've gained at least .1 to .15 from running them instead of regular wheels and tires like I used to. I use to be frequently in the first three pair to run eliminations because I was barely under my indexes (my car was originally factored at 150hp which was very hard, considering other combos were either given the same factor as their advertised hp, or no more than 10hp over O.E.M.). The wheels allow the usage of the thinner front runners that definitely reduced rolling resistance.

GarysZ24 10-27-2021 10:43 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 650855)
Now you're missing the point . I never said FWD automatics couldn't go rounds. Especially when there are no sticks out there.Dave Noll has been local so far.
The guy in Co. went a few rounds this year. Polhill has been locked down, but has gone deep at Indy several times. Bill Drevo won a Divisional, and don't forget the biggest FWD winner yet. All of this means bupkis ..I know what I see, watching races with all the info right in front of me.
You're not going to convince me stick cars are less consistent. I've been winning races with them for almost 50 years.
Maybe you can convince Chris Knudsen or Brad Zaskowski ;-)
Kyle Tripp I believe is who you're referring to and at this years Mile High's he got the 1st round bye, but was a 2nd rnd RU. Brent also was a 2nd rnd RU, but his car was .05 closer to his dial than Kyle's.

With all due respect to your win and Bill Drevos, they were back in the '80's or '90's right? Only Steve Polhills car has been an ambassador for the manual trannies this past decade, or this one.

Mark Yacavone 10-27-2021 10:48 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 650954)
Kyle Tripp I believe is who you're referring to and at this years Mile High's he got the 1st round bye, but was a 2nd rnd RU. Brent also was a 2nd rnd RU, but his car was .05 closer to his dial than Kyle's.

With all due respect to your win and Bill Drevos, they were back in the '80's or '90's right? Only Steve Polhills car has been an ambassador for the manual trannies this past decade, or this one.
Yep..Maybe a "has been" that's FOS ..We'll see soon ;-)

Mark Yacavone 10-27-2021 10:59 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tscheerer (Post 650882)
So how much ET was gained from using the space saver wheels and front runners? When I was running a 94 Grand Am in C/FS over 10 yrs ago I never did that, but always wondered how much it was worth. Still have the car and was thinking about putting it back together.
I don't know personally, but I wouldn't leave home without them.
Even back in the 80's ,a friend had an old tire truing machine.I used to borrow it and take regular radials and cut away most of the tread, except for a few in the middle. Of course 50 psi too .
You have to use a whole different stream of thought to build a fast FWD car. Even the alignment is opposite of what you might think. It all adds up .Don't leave anything on the table.

Dave Noll 10-27-2021 11:48 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 650951)
Was that "Turbo Action", because I know them as being the authority of Mopar Trannies (especially back in the '90's to the 2K's). I wonder if "A1 Performance Transmissions" and Converters could build you one. Better yet, I wonder what Brent or Stan, and Bill O'Connor use in their cars? I remember my engine builder Verle of "Verle Stevens Enterprises", was told by Marv Ripes (the founder of A1), to have my Turbo 125 converted from lock-up to non-lock-up, and he built me an 8" unit, that stahled up to 3600rpms. Try them, if neither of those two were the one you spoke of?
Adam @ A-1 took the stock converter as far as he could go with it. I also found a mild shift improver kit for it.

But I'm having fun with this 5 speed and I still have some things to try with it. Mark knows how fast I've been with mine & that makes it hard to switch to an automatic. @ 2500lbs and I haven't had that cam ground yet or built a better header yet.

Yes I've just hit local races with this car, so far. We've had some S/SS combo's locally the last few years and I'm learning how things are run and getting to know the racers. The last few races have been sponsored by and a BIG thank you goes to Steve Hahn, and I'm just hearing better things are coming.

GarysZ24 10-28-2021 03:36 AM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Noll (Post 650964)
Adam @ A-1 took the stock converter as far as he could go with it. I also found a mild shift improver kit for it.

But I'm having fun with this 5 speed and I still have some things to try with it. Mark knows how fast I've been with mine & that makes it hard to switch to an automatic. @ 2500lbs and I haven't had that cam ground yet.

Yes I've just hit local races with this car, so far. We've had some S/SS combo's locally the last few years and I'm learning how things are run and getting to know the racers. The last few races have been sponsored by and a BIG thank you goes to Steve Hahn, and I'm just hearing better things are coming.
Dave I'm glad you're having fun with your car/tranny combo, and I am too with mine. It's nice to have a low buck car that runs well against the more enhanced RWD Stockers of today. Don't get me wrong FWD stocker brethren, I am a fan of ALL FWD Stockers! However, I am thankful that my Turbo 125 was rebuilt
in June, 2K and hasn't needed to be touched since.

And Mark, I will be glad to see you fielding another stocker, the more the merrier. Since Consumer Reports (and other automotive media) toot the horns of the imports (especially from Japan), I am still waiting for someone to build and race them against our American branded FWD & RWD cars/trucks, and prove they're as great as the car mags claim they are, based on how consistent they'd be. I don't care about being #1 qualifier or having the quickest DF/S (CF/S next year), I want a consistent car that can give the RWD contingent fits!

As the guy from "Pinks" said, "LET'S RACE"!!!!

Billy Nees 10-28-2021 03:04 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 649086)
First, a VERRRRY belated welcome to the ranks of us (to borrow from the Marines), the few, the proud, THE FWD STOCKER RACERS!
Gary, a VERRRRY belated thanks for the welcome but I've been among the ranks for a long time (maybe even longer than you!). I raced a N/A 85 Pontiac Sunbird and an 85 Turbo Sunbird a long time ago. I don't have any pics but if you go to the classracer photo gallery and search Buff Daddy Motorsports, Mike Carr has a few pics of them.

SSDiv6 10-28-2021 03:51 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 650951)
Was that "Turbo Action", because I know them as being the authority of Mopar Trannies (especially back in the '90's to the 2K's). I wonder if "A1 Performance Transmissions" and Converters could build you one. Better yet, I wonder what Brent or Stan, and Bill O'Connor use in their cars? I remember my engine builder Verle of "Verle Stevens Enterprises", was told by Marv Ripes (the founder of A1), to have my Turbo 125 converted from lock-up to non-lock-up, and he built me an 8" unit, that stahled up to 3600rpms. Try them, if neither of those two were the one you spoke of?
Yes, Turbo Action had a manual valve body and a torque converter for the A413 transaxle you could buy for the FWD applications through Direct Connection. Forward Motion Performance used to sell them along with a racing torque converter and different gears.

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/trans_guide.html

GarysZ24 10-28-2021 10:41 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 651002)
Gary, a VERRRRY belated thanks for the welcome but I've been among the ranks for a long time (maybe even longer than you!). I raced a N/A 85 Pontiac Sunbird and an 85 Turbo Sunbird a long time ago. I don't have any pics but if you go to the classracer photo gallery and search Buff Daddy Motorsports, Mike Carr has a few pics of them.
Billy I've seen many of your successful RWD cars and they were super cool (especially the 4dr Nova). That's awesome that you raced those cars, and I hope you did good with them. Welcome back seems the more appropriate comment to you, and I wish you success with your latest entry! One of these years (God willing), I hope to venture out to your part of the country, so I can see what racing on tracks that have uncorrected barometric pressures of 30+ is like, since I'm not sure what'll be going on in Sonoma since we lost Kyle Siepel :(. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my likely last race in DF/S next week(end), while I wait for the NHRA Tech people to determine what CF/S is going to be. However, I'm stymied by the lbs per hp factor for my car showing up as 20.09? I could've sworn (as recently as the early October Vegas double-header), my cars factor was 19.22? I am stumped by that and actually pleasantly surprised by it, because adding 239lbs is better than adding 375 to run DF/S next year. However, I'm hoping the CF/S index will be raised to 15.50-15.60 instead?

Jim Wahl 10-29-2021 01:13 AM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Meyer (Post 650538)
Our stock ecotec dirt Cavalier would run faster lap times than the V8 hobby stock cars. Weight was the reason. What is the weight penalty for running stick verses and auto in the fwd classes? Tom
Tom, the weight difference is 100lbs to the stick over the auto. Jim


.

Billy Nees 12-01-2021 08:15 AM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
The "new" DF/S index is posted. 16.50?
I guess that I'd better get working on Dwight's site and figure out my next victim.

GarysZ24 12-01-2021 10:31 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 653083)
The "new" DF/S index is posted. 16.50?
I guess that I'd better get working on Dwight's site and figure out my next victim.
I'm glad to see that and that I also saw the 15.60 yesterday for CF/S, because I had reason to be concerned about it, and did some negotiating with my tech director for it. Now to try and get the funds together to have some headers made for it, so I can one of these years make it worth my while to travel nearly 2k miles to run Indy (and not just be there for two qualifying runs and 1st round of class)!

Bruce Fulper 12-02-2021 06:11 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Are the 2005 Sunfires able to be competitive?

GarysZ24 12-02-2021 07:10 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Fulper (Post 653183)
Are the 2005 Sunfires able to be competitive?
I want to say yes, but if you go to nhraracer.com and go to the Stock Car Classification Guide, you can look that up.

Billy Nees 12-02-2021 07:13 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Fulper (Post 653183)
Are the 2005 Sunfires able to be competitive?
Same as a Cavalier.

GarysZ24 12-02-2021 08:37 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Fulper (Post 653183)
Are the 2005 Sunfires able to be competitive?
I just looked in the guide, and only the 2dr coupe is listed(in the 2005 Pontiac Sunfire section row 43), so you may need to contact NHRA for other versions (ie. 4dr)?

I'm certain once they see the info on other versions (if that's what you have?), then adding it should be no problem.

Marty Knox 12-02-2021 09:39 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarysZ24 (Post 653188)
I want to say yes, but if you go to nhraracer.com and go to the Stock Car Classification Guide, you can look that up.
Gary, you can also go to Dwight Southerland's site, ClassRacerInfo.com. I like the Stock/SS tool better than NHRA's classification guide.

Bruce Fulper 12-02-2021 10:35 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
I've got a 2 door that's been sitting here for ten years. Nice little car. Stick. Got for parts for the now defunct S/S project. It has that alarm problem where it fires up for about three seconds then shuts off with a dash light ALARM light coming on. Need to fix that first. Or bypass it. Anyone know about that?

Jeff Stout 12-03-2021 01:19 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Fulper (Post 653206)
I've got a 2 door that's been sitting here for ten years. Nice little car. Stick. Got for parts for the now defunct S/S project. It has that alarm problem where it fires up for about three seconds then shuts off with a dash light ALARM light coming on. Need to fix that first. Or bypass it. Anyone know about that?
First need to know if your key is a chip key if so ican send you the instructions to program that key.

Bruce Fulper 12-03-2021 03:10 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Yes. Chip style. I've tried various online "remedies" none have helped. A long time a ago there was a fix that involved crossing some wires below the column but I misplaced the instructions and at the time wasn't too worried about it as I thought I was going to part it out. Well, it's a complete nice car so I might as well use it as a Grade Point Granny.

Rob Petrie E395 12-03-2021 05:29 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Fulper (Post 653232)
Yes. Chip style. I've tried various online "remedies" none have helped. A long time a ago there was a fix that involved crossing some wires below the column but I misplaced the instructions and at the time wasn't too worried about it as I thought I was going to part it out. Well, it's a complete nice car so I might as well use it as a Grade Point Granny.
Go on YouTube. There is a video on exactly how to do the steering column bypass. I had to do it to a truck that had a VATS problem that was not worth putting parts into to fix it right.

Bruce Fulper 12-03-2021 06:34 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Ok. I'll look for it. Thanks

Jeff Stout 12-03-2021 06:44 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
What year and make. VATS needs interrogator to determine what chip number. There 15 numbers. If it is not the exposed type chip and it's the one sealed in head of key then it requires the 3 ten minute intervals with key on. Also depending on year the connector inside switch may be bad. Requires new switch assembly and possible 3 ten minute intervals again.

Tom Meyer 12-03-2021 10:06 PM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Pull the Ecu and send it out and have the vat delete and tune done. Face Book, he does not answer phone but will reply on {TBG tuned} up in Iowa ,does it. Best money you will spend. Tom

Bruce Fulper 12-04-2021 01:00 AM
Re: New FWD weight breaks!
 
Phone # ?


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