Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

,,is anything ever "finalized"?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

AHFS is a sad deal..NHRA seeking input,doing polls and such on different areas shows they dont have a clue what they are doing with the classes but still they can say...well you woted for this and that,..very smart..then we can't blame them for anything,(or give credit..hahaha)

still thinkit's just plain ridiculous to be able to run so much under the index.some has mentioned all the stuff we got the last 10 years + INDEX RAISE in 93 or 94,we cant keep adding weight to the cars all the time.. or maybe we should raise the index another .50 so everyone can run these classes and most hit 1.15 if they chosse..

IT'S TIME to put the performance back into these classes,lower the index and keep the 1.15 so a very few will have the pleasure to slow thier cars down! that could bring the different cars and combinations closer to each other or atleast show the perfomance differences..

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

If the AHFS is applied at division races there would be no incentive left to work , invest , develop, or build any new engines , any old junk in the back corner will play ball then. The smile that you get at the ET shack from a fast run will be over and probably most of us that have supported superstock for over 30 years will be too. When i first started, I never made the show at national events, couldn't go fast enough. NO ONE listened to any crying then. They said, "go work on your car young man " . I did, I learned , worked hard, tested and then before long I qualified. As In any motorsport someone will always be faster at best. NHRA divisional and National Events were never for the Saturday-nite racer. It was then and still is the top of the mountain for a sportsman racer. It was never intended to be EASY. Go bracket race if you don't want to work, but leave the rest of us who enjoy the competition and challenge alone. Don Barber

I AM AGAINST APPLYING THE 1.15 AT DIVISION RACES

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

No one wants to get HP, but how can the system work when every run doesn't count? The AFHS system is there to keep the playing field fair and if racers are sandbagging that is not fairplay. Many guys with fast cars only go to two or three Nationals at best, but run at 5-8 divisonals and many more go to Opens. This makes it far too easy to babysit a combination that is too fast. Before you flame away, read on. Why do runs in Class competition not count after first round, but they do count if you go too fast in the eliminator? Duh, fast guys often skate past first round of class and then are free to go wide open. How is that fair?

The question is, what is too fast? If a combo is soft it deserves HP, however, if the racer has worked his tail off to go fast why should he or she get the lead trophy? NHRA also needs to include factored tracks if they are going to count runs when conditions are mine-shaft-like. If you look, the top qualifiers at these tracks are guys who can go plenty fast.

The real problem is that we need to define why a combination gets HP and not just say it's because two guys went quick.

Evan Smith
Stock 1798
SS 1797

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Evan,

Very good post, how can we get the birds at NHRA to listen.. Everyone says there's no- advantages, but you are right-on when they can go-fast and set records at factored tracks with NO-HP at all ???? Yet at the so-called sea-level tracks the faster cars get wacked !!!! something is wrong with this picture ...... What is NHRA waiting for ? When will they at least level the playing field on both coasts ? How can you set a record or run way under and not get HP..

Maybe Len can chime in and tell us how this is still happening ???? Dave,

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Mr. Imbrogno,

Nice try. The majority of the racers say they don't want you guys using a 1.15 under number and so you cook up this "separate" little scheme to implement 1.15 under at divisionals. And then you two don't tell the racers until it is exposed. Now, all of a sudden, you are accepting emails about the scheme. Sure, all of us just got off the boat yesterday.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

All's this means is that if the 1.15 is applied to divisionals..... racers are going to do the same thing there that is done at Nationals.... which is slowing their stuff down.

Lynn McCarty's post several pages back............ ignored for the most part, really makes a valid point...... he suggests using "statistical analysis" to determine the combos that have a "statistically significant" advantage.

The only problem with doing this now is that the data from qualifying sheets (that exist since AHFS's inception) are completely skewed and inaacurate due to the sandbagging by us all to avoid triggering the AHFS itself.

Before AHFS was instituted..... I had posted on several forums and wrote to the nhra........ in favor of using a statistical analysis approach to looking at hp factors. At the time.... the qualifying data used for the numbers crunching would have been more reliable. It could have all been done experimentally and its validity checked and rechecked before implementing it.

But like Lynns post.... it was not seriously considered, even ignored by many. I believe at the time...the NHRA's attitude was leaning more towards a system where the individual racer could be held more accountable for what happened to him... rather than a system where they make the determinations.

What Lynn is referencing as a "bell curve" is known in Statistics as a "Standard Distribution". Basically it is measure that is used for a great deal of scientific research such as determinging the effectiveness of a medication.... and even in intelligence testing. In a nutshell..... once a standard distribution is established.... any item (being tested).... more than a "standard deviation" or two above the average... (such as a combo that can go 1.35 under in the summer when the next fastest car is .95 under) is not there by chance.. its not there because the driver stumbled on the perfect tune up... or got a better hold of the track that pass....... it is expected that there must be a logical explanation for it (such as it is under rated). Another example..... if a human scores a 160 on a real IQ examnation.... that person did not get there by guessing all the answers.... there is a reason..... he has exceptional intellectual potential. I really think such a system would have been able to even things out.... and allow racers to persue engine combinations that truely were intersting to them.

I will be holding a seminar on this topic the Wednesday before Gainseville in the purple and yellow hospitality tent under the zepole gazebo.

Either way.... its too bad that this situation still remains a sore point for many. As for myself I eventually gave up and..... I went the route of the soft combo which I highly recommend to others by the way.

Anyway.... I wish all a great holiday season ...... no matter what happens, we're all in it for fun (I hope).

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Don Barber,
Interesting comment about the being allowed to run wide open at points meets to make a good run.
Opens and Points meets have by history become bracket races. A good run is always relative. Does anyone else use that combination? was the air Killer? is the HP bogus in relation to others?
Some feel tightening the AHFS to where most combinations are more relative to each other would make "a good run" mean more as it would be compared to closer factored motors....
Some feel a fast run today by some cars means very little if it isnt fairly factored in the first place. Number one Qualifier is a given for lesser factored cars.What does it mean? Someone found another weakly factored motor combination.That takes research but some say their performance is by the pen not hard work.
Class winner in a class like AH where all the parts are the same is a true accomplishment. In a way AH is the way it probably should be all the way down if there werent so many combinations legal to run today. Factoring has to be tighter...for everyones good.
Just opinions. Thanks.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Bruce
I understand your passion for racing
I really feel you need to learn a nicer way to put thing accross
I am sure Len and the rest of the guys at NHRA would get the message alot better if they wernt being attacked
Telling people they arent being truthfull isnt going to help the cause..
Get your point across without being negative will work better..

Now that siad there has to be a middle ground and using division races and opens to do the factoring will not work and in many cases will just hurt the low budget racer as he gets the HP also

There has to be a way to leave performance in stock and super stock racing or what is the point

You can brackett race on a local level so why travel 200-300 miles and spend $$$ if there isnt a difference??

Class racing needs to be about more then shoe polish..

I also agree I hate seeing cars shut off at 1000 feet but I understand the reason racers do this but it isnt good for class racing at all

I would also like to see the NHRA let the racers in on what they are thinking about earlier in the process and allow us to give our input I do understand in the end it is their clubhouse and they can do as they want

Len I have a hard time believing that most racers want the 1.15 under at the division and open races that just wouldnt make sence to me could expand on what are some of the reasons they may want that rule?

I would think it a good idea in the future to put posts like this in the racer only area of the forum that way we could be sure all that respond are the ones that race

Happy Holidays to all make it a special family time ........

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Evan,

Counting all runs would make sense if we ran the identical combinations, on the same racing surface on the same day. But there are way, way too many variables to attempt to apply one strict rule to govern performance.

This is simply a way for nhra to control performance on the cheap. Len's first post stated very clearly that the majority of the racers were not for -1.15 at divisional races -- His words--"While there have been a large number of racers over the last several years who have asked for division event to be included in the AHFS, there does not appear to be a majority of racers who want this to happen." From the spin doctor himself.

There would be no incentive for working on our cars because nhra has already allowed enough parts to put most of us who are serious about performance over the mark. We can run in Jr. & Top Stock in Div. 1 and be safe from this lunacy but that is not an option for most of the racers.

With rare exception, there is not much difference in performance between altitude and sea level tracks. Some fast folks may miss their tune up when moving between them but the real problem is, as you mentioned, there is no ahfs to speak of at altitude tracks. And that would mean most of the national records would be set at altitude while the majority of the racers back east would be shut out unless they throw caution to the wind. And there is absolutely no reason to believe nhra intends to change this rule.


Mark, did you read Len's first post on this thread? Thanks for your tips on manners but this is a two way street we are on here. And besides, do you know how to communicate with people who are consumed with corporate narcissism?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

If the AHFS doesnt count EVERY PASS,,there is no reason to have it,,,,,,,class racing is about performance but the thinking about bracket racers not being labeled as "racers" in this "country club atmosphere" is a little un called for,,,,,,,for your info ,,,,,alot of us who decide to try this class racing are bracket racers and choose to try to build our own combos whether its quick or not, do this with the idea of going as quick as our knowledge/pocket book allows and do it without having to worry about getting busted for cheating cause we are not paying 3k for a set of acid ported heads or like Ed said,,,not ording a set of "stocker pistons" with the only thing being legal on them is the fraudulent number stamped of top of the piston

its time for tech to get tough...good thing I dont run the tech dept,,,AHFS would be in effect on every run,,I would take conditions and elevations into consideration and the AHFS triggers wouldnt be on the 1/4,,,it would be on the 1000ft

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I like Angelo's responce, I'm going to build a fuel injected Olds motor for next year that can run 2 seconds under. Maybe we need old Farmer back. In the 60's & 70's Farmer would give you hp in the staging lanes or when you teched in if "he" thought you needed it. The hp system will never please everyone.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

counting the AHFS on every pass will accomplish nothing except making racers slow thier cars down. The AHFS does not work because their is no incentive to go fast. only way to make this happen is to have more heads up runs. if i were to buld a car and race in a class with no one it it, all i would have to do is run the index. even if this car could go 1.60 under it wouldnt matter because i would never do that because then the combo would get hp. now if there were some cars in the class and i actually had a heads up run in eliminations, only then the AHFS would start to work.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

steve,,,,a good start on the idea is combining classes,,,A & b,,,,,,C&d,,,, and so on,,the bugs would have to be thought out BUT it could be easily done,,I got a feeling with the combining of Fi cars,,,your going to see alot more heads up runs

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

This will probably get me in trouble, but does nobody else think the Super Stock indexes are way soft? Seeing Stockers move over to SS at a race, and still run under the index shows the SS indexes are soft. Guess it's because I'm old too, but I have trouble using bracket and race in the same sentence. I totally agree with Dave Layer and Jeremey. I don't have a lot of money or a high dollar car, either.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Here's a comp guy's perspective on the subject. No hits in qualifying, but yes during class elims and points races and nationals are treated the same. Go as fast as you want at opens. You can ignore the recommendations in the second sentence, but i say you really ought to lobby for go as fast as you want at opens. Opens are really fun for comp racers because you can go as fast as you want to and not have to worry about hitting the index. That little altered of mine that Lee Zane drives would have run 150 at the Atco Open back in the Spring except it was on the chip the last 150 feet or so (it ran 148.85 at 8.83 as it was).

The other reason for getting rid of the AHFS at opens is that the Atco open and the Dutch take place when mineshaft conditions can lead to combos getting the shaft (sorry couldn't resist the pun). That shouldn't happen either.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Dave has a Great Idea, Why not just Implement the AFHS durring Eliminations. Thats when guys ( In Heads Up Races ) Might go fast with the least regard, trying to win a race.
I think another way to get some runs to count instead of guys sandbagging, is to Award points for Class wins. There are not many places to run class anymore, if you can win your class somewhwere you can get like 30 points to win class and 10 to reach the final, then more guys might be forced to participate because it could have implications on Championship points. maybe if you win Class at Indy you get 50 points. This could give an advantage to the Hot Rodders that still work on their car because they like to go fast, as well as try to go rounds.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

All runs should have been counted since the implimintation of the AHFS (come to think of it, originally they were)! The only people that counting all runs will hurt will be the high $ engine parts suppliers and builders. Oh and the brain dead "D**k Slingers" that will go fast because they can. NHRA can't take every car apart like int the old days and even if they did who are they going to get to look at the stuff.? Make it so that if you want to buy the high $, enhanced parts you get reeled back in and if you have any common sense at all you'll eventually stop. It will solve 2 problems at once, bringing all of the "soft" cars in line and making for less "stupid fast" cars for Tech to tear down. I'm putting on my Nomex underwear as I'm typing this.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Whats the problem with -1.15 under, as long as they count all runs it will make this system work better then ever! And if they are goin to continue to allow record runs a alt. adj. tracks, then hp should follow. Getting hp back is a joke, so they might as well get rid of that little program. Hell, make it -1.00 under for a hit. Who cares, there were a bunch of guys on this forum talking about Indy Qual being a joke because of so many guys goin -1.00 under...So you want to change the index's. Thats no goin to solve anything! Soft combo is still soft!

As far as tossin guys for shutting off at 1000', that rediculous! Deep staging gone, Button gone, Now Bracket racers are on the way out! When will the bitching stop?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

----

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

When Has Ahfs Ever Fffing Worked You Got 350 Cad Fuel Inj. Rated At 180 Hp In Superstock . Get Rid Of It This A Performance Class . They Got Bracket Racing For Everybody That Can"t Get There Combo To Run Fast.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Steve, you make a great point and I agree. There needs to be more reason to go fast in the first place, other than Top or Jr. Stock, or bragging rights. Hopefully combining the EFI cars and the regular classes will help this.

I would not be happy about having to protect my factor every run, but what point is there to having a system at all when it is easily avoidable? Anyone can skirt the system the way it is now.

If you want incentive to go fast then here it is:

I proposed to Len and Mr. Light a system in which points (divisional and/or national) are awarded to the top 16 qualifiers at national and divisional events in Stock and SS. Top qualifier gets 16 points, 16th qualifier gets 1 point and you can do the rest of the math. With that, points should be awarded for national records (come up with a fair point value and a max number of points that can be earned in a season) and also for wins during class eliminations. If you get points for beating someone heads-up during the eliminator, why not award points during Class Eliminations. OK, busy classes offer more opportunity for points, well then build a car for that class.

This would help a go-fast guy gain a Top-10 finish in the divsion rather than it just being based on bracket-racing points totals. If Stock and SS are performance-based classes, then performance should matter. This is a simple way for performance to matter.

Evan

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I have the answer for all of you "performance based racers" (read that bracket racer haters). If you want your performance class back like the "good old days", forget the AHFS or combining classes or changing indexes. Remove the dial-in/breakout format and institute the CIC format like Comp. Just think, all the performance based racing you can stand! Oh sure, you'll have a bunch of people run away with the class for a few years, but nobody escapes the CIC forever. And best of all, you get rid of all those damn bracket "racers". After all, you don't see them running in Comp, do you? Oh wait, come to think of it, you do. Well, maybe it should just be heads up, period. No indexes or factored HP or anything, just like Pro Stock. Thank God there are none of those damn bracket "racers" there either! Oh wait again. Nevermind. I don't have an answer after all. Those damn bracket "racers" just keep finding a way to ruin everything.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

You just can't count runs at divisionals without the the threat of teardown there.
Count ALL runs at National events .
Do it four times a year.
You carb guys better lobby for this or you'll be in the back of the bus for four or five years..... or broke, whatever comes first.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I don't think anyone here hates bracket racers. Some of us don't believe the bracket racing format belongs in S/SS thats all we're saying. Get rid of the shoe polish and playing games at 1000 ft. and the fans will return. Stock and super/stock used to be crowd favorites,I think they still can be. Top Stock is a step in the right direction,no games first to the line wins. Thats racing. I would bet you would see a whole new batch of winners.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Best idea yet! Doesn't address the AHFS issue but I'd support something like this anyday. There should be rewards for all the hard work besides a line in ND and a certificate. I think by the time they combine FI with carbs and maybe even combine trannys you'll see that some will be forced into going fast.
I've also proposed to Len that either 1/8th mile or 1000' increments are used in evaluations along with 100# maximum ballast. That would take care of the racers sandbagging the AHFS. Racers, putting on a show on your brakes will make the class as appealing as the throttle-stop classes!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I think that we all need to take a serious look at the safety issue at hand when two racers have to slam on the brakes in a heads up race to keep from going too far under. There are going to be a lot more top end crashes beacause of this problem. It's tough enough to back into a guy in a bracket race looking over your shoulder running at top speed scrubbing the brakes and not have something go wrong. But this heads up situation is a lot more dangerous, one guy waits for the other to give up and then they both slam on the brakes trying to slow down. Look at what has happened to the excitement of Class Eliminations, its all but gone now.
Racers in a heads up situation should not have to slam on the brakes, whats this sport supposed to be about anyway?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Thanks Jeff. There are a lot of good racer on here making valid points. Still, the NHRA will never, hard as it might try, make racing 100% fair for the thousands of racers and thousands of possible combinations in Stock or SS, regardless of any AHFS system it might employ. That is reality.

I'm not bragging, buy my car will run past 1.15 under, and the last thing I want is HP, but you have to be realistic. How is the playing field ever going to be equalized when most of us race at only a 2-4 nationals a year? What is the point of having any system if you can demolish the competition at any divisional or open? To say it is not policed at divisionals is a joke. It's not like 15-20 cars are coming apart at every national. For the AHFS system to work you have to count ALL runs, but equalize other areas (such as freak weather conditions and factored tracks) and also offer some incentive for going fast to limit sandbagging.

My points system offers such, with little-to-no consequence for anyone. Many of the top racers have fast cars so this won't be a big deal for them.

Jim, racers hit the brakes hard during normal bracket competition at every race, far more than the few times during heads-up competition. This will always occur as long as there is bracket racing.

Of course we can't turn our backs on bracket-style racing beacuse it allows anyone to have a chance and that is pretty cool. But there should be far more reward for those who want to race in a performance-based class.

Evan

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Jim, racers hit the brakes hard during normal bracket competition at every race, far more than the few times during heads-up competition. This will always occur as long as there is bracket racing


Evan,

IMO there is a big difference on how a racer hits the brakes in these two situations, I outlined that in my post.
The proposed addition of counting all runs would make this situation of excessive braking even worse.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Yeah, bracket racers know how to hit the brakes and heads up racers don't! LOL!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Hey Bottomfeeder,

My point is that excessive braking is a serious issue. Why make it worse?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

So you're going to resort to name calling because you don't know how to hit the brakes? Nice.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Hey dude,

You want to disagree or argue with me thats fine, thats why were all here, to discuss these matters like men. You laughed at me and made fun of my post, I take issue with that.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Ed Fernandez

I try real hard not to get involved in Internet bashing, but I feel I need to reply to your coments toward me.

You are correct it is 2007, but your statement towards the price of things makes it sound like you are the one still in 1967. I don't know you at all but to me thats the way it sounded.

I ran Comp for years, Dave Dupps drove my K/A for several years. In 1998 running a limited schadule we won 3 races. We always qualified very well I think we were #1 or 2 at Indy several times. The car is sitting here in my shop. Why don't we race it any more? Same old story don't have the time or money. If I don't have the time or the $ to run comp SS/AH is way out of site.

The Daddy Warbucks thing is way out of line also. If you knew me or anyone that works in this business you probably would't have made that remark. You sure as hell aren't going to get wealthy in this bussiness, make a living yes, wealthy no. It is nothing but hard nasty assed work. You have to really love it to enjoy it.

I might be a worn out has been, but I still enjoy racing and plan to continue, I felt I had a decent year in 2007.

If you felt the comment I made about bracket guys was directed toward someone like you, you are dead wrong. I see in the lastest issue of Nitro's Stats your best run of the year as of 10/1/07 was 1.112 under. To me that is very respectable, especially in light of the comments you made about not having "Good" heads or pistons. To be that fast you must work on your car to make it faster which would make you one of the good guys in my book. My comment was directed towards people just the opposite. As a friend of mine that works in the cam business once told me "I wouldn't walk 50 feet to watch the final of a .90 eliminator final but I would run from the pits to see the class final in V/SA". That pretty much somes it up.

By the way you can just call me Dave.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

...and...due to all the name bashing, insults among racers and the disagreements that they read on this forum, the reason why NHRA does not take us seriouly and make their own calls and decisions...

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

"It seems like a bunch of mainly old hasbeens resent the fact that their little world was invaded by racers who go rounds and win races and championships.
Maybe Mr. Heads Up shold just go on a "Pinks" tour in 2008.
Kevlar underwear on,flame away............"


Ed F.
NHRA #1945
IHRA #14
T/SA


I would invite you to come to a division 3 race because Dave would be kickin' your a.ss regardless if you were in his class or not. He was on a roll this year. If you think he is a "has been" then you are an idiot. He may claim not to be a "bracket racer" but he disproved that this year.

Oh, and his car is "kinda" fast also!


Jim McBean
SS3845

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Why wouldnt NHRA want to get rid of us? Everytime they change something for us, the loosers still find something to whine about! Times are changing, change with them or continue to loose!

All these cheaters are deepstaging, get rid of it and you'll see a difference! HA!
I cant wait to see the out come of the button issue next year when the top 10 doesnt change!
Holding a dime is the new way to do things! Just because you cant do it dont mean its wrong!

This has becom the classbitcher.com

GO RACE, LEARN HOW TO WIN, GET OVER IT.

-1.15 under automatic hp would be great! After a year the field will be closer then ever!

Beard...The I-Sides looking better all the time! lol

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Ed,

Sometimes we are on the opposite sides of a discussion and it looks like we are again.

I had the pleasure of meeting Dave Layer at Orlando this year and he is nothing short of a straight up guy. We were pitted next to each other and I found him to be a very reasonable intellegent man so no point in beating on him.

Now I'm a different story. I'll have to tell you that I have never begged for any thing in my life and I certainly won't beg for help from a bunch of con men running an organization that I'm paying money. They have been schuk'n and jive'n us on HP issues for years and none of them will ever give a straight answer to a straight question. For instance I have asked Imbrogno and everybody I can think of at nhra to give me a straight answer about all the unpublished changes to the ahfs. Did you notice that Len failed to answer that question once again? I have stacks of emails and letters that I have written to these folks with little or no responses. Certainly never a straight answer! And I'm damn tired of playing Mr. Nice Guy with a bunch of people who are getting over on us. Yea sure you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar but we are dealing with teflon coated flies!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Dave;
I full well know the prices of parts,labor,travel,entry fees etc.and I wish they were still at 1967 levels.Some of my comments were not directly aimed at you(hasbeens)
Here in Div. 1 most of the so called bracket racers of any concequence who go rounds and run for div. and national points also have deadly fast cars.No need to name names,they onlyshow it when needed.Maybe Evan's
idea about awarding qualifying will helpthe situation.
The Daddy Warbucks comment was actually directed at the guys with bottomless pockets who'sbank accounts limit their ability to hammer their indexes.Being in a lower
uncrowded class doesn't it really hasn't much effect on me but from H and up someof these guys have more money in a short block than I have inmy entirecar,and that's a fact Jack.
As far as the performance of my car I can only thank Tom
Goldman,he's the brains I'm only the nut behind the wheel,who occasionly shows signs of brilliance.
Sorry for not being clearer in my post,us old guys gotta stick together.
Bruce,I still love ya.

Ed F.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

How about this? Let the 1.15 go down then we could all leave our rigs in arizona go as fast as we want and nothing will happen just race alt factor tracks .