Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Some of them have been doing that from the get-go! Easiest form of traction control. They aren't even using full throttle down track, they're spinning the tires past the eighth.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Are we debating the ultimate class racing contradiction? Because I read over and over how out of whack the payouts and contingencys are compared to the cost of racing stk s/stk in the NHRA world. Most of us agree we do it because we love the cars,the people,the performance challenge,and chasing the Wally.
Maybe I'm just nieve, but it simply doesn't make sense to me to risk getting caught. I'm not talking about chamber CC or too light rods etc. I'm talking traction control, delay boxes,down track stutter,etc.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

As far as I know, the factory installed program on cobra jets until at least 2016 were not programmable to open the throttle greater down the track. However, once a racer upgrades to a something like a Holley system, they are able to do time-based throttle opening rate.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

With the MSD Grid, you can also do it with a carbureted engine.
Kill the timing on launch and kick it during the run.

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/go_...nition_system/

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

What I'd like to know is how many Racers are actually "spot-dropping" and how many are using their ignition box, grid and data logger to determine an exact time and distance on the track to "drop". Something that the system is perfectly capable of doing. Again, I'll say "It's the 21ST Century. I tend to doubt that many very successful Racers are picking a pole or flag to "drop" on.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

We have learned how to get the car to repeat within a hundredth of the prediction by using a self adjusting ECU tune depending on DA .. you need to use modern technology.

Good chassis design is key to consistency.

Tuneup is way more reliable method than counting or dropping. It does not "stretch" the rules.


Ron

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

From what I heard thru the grapevine, ..easy enough to do . All starts with zero wheelspin..See my earlier post ;-)

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

You still have cut a light! But that’s a whole other story!

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Get rid of blinders and brake pressure switches.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

What is wrong with the blinders?

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Because you can win with them and he can't. They could take it all away and still someone will look for an excuse as to why you win and they don't.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Are you talking about spot dropping to keep their cars slower than a second under or spot dropping to hit their dial in?

If your talking about to hit your dial in I’d have to agree your tune up is way reliable unless blatantly cheating with the grid such as using an arc module or something similar. Just pulling timing at x seconds isn’t going to help if you lost a tenth at half track because the setup/tune up is bad. You’d need to have something that tells the grid your track position which is already illegal.

I would argue and say that successful racers are just in good consistent cars, not pushing rules with electronics.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Kinda like deep staging, isn't it? ;-)

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Is there anyone that is successfully spot-dropping on every run, or hitting the dial dead-on every time they do it?

Spot dropping is one tool in the bag of a complete top-end driver, and learning how much to hold and how to kill it is a learned and earned skill. The car also needs to be good first.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

I would venture to say that there are more good cars out there than great drivers.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

I'd 100% agree. I'm mostly puzzled by a post that is worried about illegal drop spot identification, as if there are people killing it with the spot drop constantly. Unless one doesn't understand how/why it is utilized.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Could someone please tell me the difference between electronic "traction control" or a light flywheel or a slipper clutch?

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

I think Billy was referring to if using a grid and a program to spot drop. The opposite of a .90 car on the other end. Wouldn't that be like using a throttle stop timer?

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Nothing. Every car was equipped with them from the factory. If not there -you do it on your visor. Nothing illegal about them. Nothing in the rule book that says; you cannot have them or have to see every bulb. Same with brake switches.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

I fully understand how "spot dropping" works. I've spent the better part of my life in a slower-than-normal car.
What I am questioning is, can a "good" car be set up to use the data loggers timer (set up to start on WOT) and drive shaft sensor or wheel sensor to "turn on" something like a shift light at a certain point on the track to "alert" the driver to lift? I know that it's possible but is it practical? Ya know, kinda like a matty box but not exactly (is that a dirty term?). I have been around long enough to know that a couple of great drivers have been caught with them AND delay boxes.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

If one was going through all the trouble to measure time and distance, there would be much more effective uses for it than a 'drop here' indicator.

I've never had a data logger, but the logger can't 'talk back' to the ignition box, can it? In it's standard-issue form, anyway?

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

I followed Super Street eliminations this year on Live Timing and this strategy has gained popularity in that class.

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THAT'S what the grid is for! And YES, the data logger CAN talk to the ignition box.

So, you're talking about "21ST Century spot dropping" without knowing what you're talking about. At least that's what I'm talking about.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Ya know, I'm going to go back to my original post. Larry, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread even though it has taken an interesting turn.

Now, are down-track timers legal? Are roll-out counters legal? Hey NHRA, WAKE UP! Are they legal or not? If they are, then fix your rule book! If they're not then get the data loggers and grids out of the cars during eliminations!
Thank You!!!!!!!!!

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

When was the last time a N.H.R.A. or I.H.RA. class racer has been exposed for using electronics to enhance their performance?
May I coin a phrase "The Viagra Principle".

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

In my experience with Super Street and Super Comp, there's way more finish line activity in Super Comp.

I've never gotten the feeling that anything untoward is going on though.

If I were to have time/distance information available, I could perhaps make a better decision at the finish line but a spot drop is still introducing more variables than other techniques might. Reacting consistently to the stimuli, applying consistent brake pressure, etc.

Could it be done? Maybe. Do I think that's how it would most effectively be deployed? No.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Lenny,
I saw many 60' numbers in the 1.45 range or better that ran close to or on the 10.90 index. For 600+hp combos that led me to believe they were employing a "throttle stop" or "Grid" technology at the other end?

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

There are quite a few guys that are competitive in Super Street simply using weight and/or shift point. Some can put it on the number that way, and some get it close and then drive it from there.

You'd need to look at more than just 60' to know what the method is.

I can't say that nobody is cheating. I can 100% say that there are WAY more smart, creative, and talented drivers than there are electronic cheaters out there.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Isn't this technology legal is SST?

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My SST theory is with all that stumbling and bumbling crap that exists on the starting line I think I would like to have a big lead in a heads up race and certainly if I was confident I could control the 10.90 number at the finish line. The average reaction times in SST are not all that stellar.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...n-systems/amp/

Interesting article on the subject. There are certain data loggers that we are allowed to use in Stock and I haven't found any option in my legal data logger that would let it talk to an ignition box.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Larry,
I apologize for my part in making this thread a royal hijack, but I agree with Billy that electronic enhancements need to be reviewed. This technology has no place in Stock Eliminator.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

The MSD 7531 box that they talk about in the article is only legal in NHRA Pro Mod Nitrous class. Not legal in other NHRA classes.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

It has no place in Drag Racing! At what point in time are we just as well to stay at home and play games. You've "still gotta cut a light" in a Drag Racing video game too.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

It’s our thread! It a discussion on how we would like, racing, to be. Most if not all power’s that be look at CR, SRAC, NHRA, manufacturers, sponsors, racers, and host of others. Everyone wants racing to be fair and fun!

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Just a heads-up, NHRA 2022 Rule Book, General Regulations, Sections 9;1, 9;2, 9;11. Read it yourself and decide what's legal.
You can download the whole book by clicking on NHRA Competition and clicking on Rules 2022 Rule Book.
Read it and decide for yourself.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

9:1 COMPUTER
A computer is defined as any device (electrical, mechanical,
pneumatic, hydraulic, etc.) that activates any function of,
or in any way affects the operation of, the vehicle based on
measurement, sensing, processing, etc. of any data related
to the performance of the vehicle. Except those installed on
stock vehicles by the new-vehicle manufacturer for the proper
operation of such vehicle, no vehicles may be equipped with
computers. Per Class Requirements, OEM or aftermarket
OEM-type electronic fuel injection permitted. Electronic fuel
injection must be closed, OEM-type system; i.e., may monitor
only engine functions. Monitoring of vehicle performance
criteria, wheel speed, driveshaft speed, vehicle acceleration,
etc. by fuel-injection system prohibited. Any form of torque
management (e.g., launch control, traction control, height
ignition correction, etc.) is prohibited. All related wiring, sensors,
etc. must be identifiable to the tech inspector. See General
Regulations 9:11 TRACTION CONTROL.

During NHRA competition, a portable computer (e.g., laptop,
PDA, Palm Pilot, programmer, etc.) must be securely mounted
when located in driver’s compartment at any point beyond the
staging area ready line. All functions or values must be preset
prior to this point.

Per Class Requirements, timed or rpm-activated shifters and
the like permitted, but all automated functions must be preset
before the run. Timer may display only timer amount dialed in;
analog or digital display permitted. Devices may be removed at
any time at discretion of NHRA Technical Department.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

9:2 DATA RECORDERS
Data recorders may be used (per Class Requirements) to record
functions of a vehicle so long as they do not activate any
function on the vehicle. All data recorders manufactured after
Jan. 1, 2006, must be NHRA-accepted. A current list of NHRA-
accepted data recorders is available on NHRARacer.com.
Fifth-wheel sensing devices prohibited on all vehicles (includes
wheelie-bar wheels). All lines sensing flow, pressure, etc. of fuel
or oil must be metallic or steel braided. Ride height sensors
prohibited unless specifically permitted by Class Requirements.
Cylinder pressure sensors prohibited in all classes.

Any device (mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, electrical, optical,
etc.) other than OEM-type that assists in determining track
location of the competitor’s own vehicle or opponent’s vehicle
is prohibited. Only OEM-style mirrors, mounted in conventional
fashion, permitted.

For non-OEM data recorder applications, the transmission or
display of any vehicle performance data (e.g., wheel speed,
driveshaft speed, vehicle acceleration, etc.) gathered or
processed by the data recorder, to the driver or any remote
location, during the run, is prohibited. This data may be reviewed
(printout, replay, etc.) only after the run. Discovery of a device
that displays, indicates, or transmits “on track,” “track location,”
or “elapsed time”-type data will be grounds for immediate
disqualification from the event, loss of all NHRA Camping World
Drag Racing Series or Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series points for
the season, and suspension from all NHRA Championship Drag
Racing events for remainder of season. Additional penalties may
be imposed at the discretion of NHRA. Devices may be removed
at any time at the discretion of the NHRA Technical Department.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

9:11 TRACTION CONTROL
Any type of traction-control device, electronic or mechanical, is
prohibited. A traction-control device is any unit or system that
uses live data to control functions of the vehicle, such as tire
slip, which are not controlled by the driver. These devices are,
but not limited to, timing control based on wheel, driveline, or
engine acceleration, braking control, throttle control, tire-shake
meters, vertical acceleration meters, misfire control, stutter
box, relays, and/or rpm-activated chips. See 9:10 TELEMETRY
DEVICES, 8:2 DELAY BOXES/DEVICES, 8:3 IGNITION, 9:1
COMPUTER.

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

It's true; there are a lot of non-OEM-type mirrors in use out there.