Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Absolutely. But the participants of any type of call/video should only be current stock and super stock racers/car owners who actively campaign a car somewhere within the 7 divisions. Otherwise it would not be productive. You would have too many personal opinions from people who are not actively involved and not spending money to campaign a car.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Geez Frank, sensitive? I liked the part about "I see more sandbagging, how is this going to help?" I still don't think shaving a tenth off of evverybody's index is a smart idea. It makes a second under car a 90 under car or mYbe not even but a guy that can barely run the index (which you must dial at minimum) is now non competitive. My division has at least 3 or 4 cars that have trouble running the index but they remain competitive but if they are now a tenth further away from it they are dialing a number they can't run.
So number 1 Qualifier is now still number 1 but a tenth slower and numbers 87-91 Qualifiers can't run the number at all.
That was the dumb part!

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

This will have EXACTLY the opposite effect of what it is intended to do.

In fact, after thinking this post over for a few minutes, these changes are/were apparently made by people who don't run the eliminators and are just flat not smart.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Sensitive? Not so much. I still disagree with you however I have great respect for you and other racers and understand your point of view. Especially the competitive jungle of D1.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Yes and no. Qualifying will be fun to watch...

Not true...

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

It seems pretty obvious as to why this big rule change has been made. It was pretty cool to see Worner and Huntzberry run all out at Zmax in a heads up run. A lot of people thought they'd go to 1000' and click it and I'm glad they didn't. That was an awesome race and its what this class is all about. So, next year if that same scenario happens with another pair who can fly, they can run it all out and concentrate on lowering the average the rest of the year and not get any horsepower. This is a performance based class and while some of us dont have the deep pockets to get to that illustrious 1.00 mark, we can still be compeititve by working on our car and with our engine builder to find ways to pick up some e.t, or if you have to sit out half a season and save up some $$ to get that level where your comfortably under the index when the air is awful then so be it. Ive been in that boat, actually Im always in that boat, making sacrifices financially so I can afford to have the best engine my pockets can put together, also working with and having a solid relationship with an engine builder/machinist who understands my budget is a huge plus.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

That people will protect what they invested if they can is a "No-Brainer" and that was not my point, it was that you shouldn't have to call Glendora and ask about the averages your combo have before a race and that you should not have a possibility to roll back your average with sandbagging.
It should be all about how fast a combo can be "legally" of course and nothing else for the factoring.


It's NHRA's game

p.s Yes I liked the old times netter

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Actually, I suggested a couple of tenths..Realistically it should be 5.

I just looked and the Div 1 Stock Q results for the season. I see one guy with a good combo that's running about 2 tenths under at every race.I don't know what his game is. He's run fast before in other cars.He must be using a Target motor or something.
.I see a very few new names at the bottom and some with mechanical issues.
Billy's current ride has a long block right out of the junkyard, and he can run 5 tenths under.

Almost every day we hear that S/SS is a performance based eliminator. Also we MUST have heads -up runs in the eliminator.
But then we hear that lowering the indexes 2 tenths and keeping the triggers at the same value , to keep pace with progress, is a dumb idea.
Rich, I don't know how long you've been at this, and I know some of the newer guys don't like to hear about the good old days, but try this:
In 1978, I was fortunate to be in a divisional final. Myself and the other guy were the the only two cars to run on or under the index, for the entire event.
Today, those combos can run a full second under the index.
I guess you never drove 1000 miles to Gainesville with a S/S car and qualified 34th in a 32 car field. gee..Much too hard. I should have quit then. ;-)

How about we lower the indexes 2 tenths and then , for the guys at the bottom, over the index, we give them a participation trophy?
Then we can watch the rest of the cars run all the way to the 1320?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Mark, the 2 tenths that NHRA took off EVERYBODYS Indexs, (Not just the guys with "approved" aftermarket heads, intake manifolds, camshafts, carbs etc) was supposed to allow the fast guys to "all the way to 1320", but that didn`t seem to be the case, did it?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Nope, not now, but how long ago was that?
I believe it should be pre-programmed every few years..and NO goodies, such as aluminum heads, and then re-evaluated.
Oh, and put the FX cars at advertised hp..not at a charity case rating.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

What Bubski is taking away from these AHFS changes are 1. A racer can run amok for a long time legal or not and beat up the average without a system of checks and balances like was in place previously !! 2. Its also a way out of teching a car for an infraction on the index on a Saturday or Sunday in the middle of the race so the tech people don't have to bother with extensive tear downs as the race winds down and everyone is tired and wants to go home !!

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Stosh, Every once in a while, you make a good point.
They needed a way out of that automatic teardown so they made one up.
I have to say , this incognito bit has it's merits. You can say what you want and don't have to worry about upsetting your after hours beer drinkin' buddies.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Just a quick note, Stock and SS at St. Louis are "mineshaft"!

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

And the 1# qualifier is running the 1 off aluminum head 350 FI
As he has qualified at almost every race he went to
So he went stupid fast all year but the kicker is the combo only good for this year
So when is Nhra gonna get rid of bogus and nonexistent combinations to level the playing fields FOR EVERYONE.
Ps. Nothing against Matt He’s just running the combo Nhra f@ed up and allowed

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Not sure which races you were looking at, but if the indexes were lowered .5, there would be 5 or 6 cars in Div1 that would be non qualifiers, maybe even more depending on the DA.

If you think Billys car can run .5 under anywhere, you should come rent it from him and run it at Numidia next year, or Atco when its 95 degrees.
lowering the index .5 would just help the fast cars, it would do nothing for the entry level racer that can't spend 5k on heads. If we turn that person away, are we really helping to bring new racers in?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Mark all they would have needed to do was drop the index's a tenth. Now in a heads up no one has to worry about going more than 1.20 under. If you have enough cars running your combo it's pretty easy to keep the average under .85 under. BP

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Bubski's head hurts from all this NHRA gobbly gook !! First and foremost is that the sportsman racer pays at least a 100$$ per national event for insurance !! Bubski can't think of the last time a S/SS car killed a poor soul in the stands !! Death at the races is no laughing matter !! Bubski would like all to leave the property as they came !! However maybe the NHRA could take some of that extortion cash stole from the sportsmen racers and funnel it into the the proper tech to help keep the sportsmen the backbone of NHRA in check and happy with their sanctioning body !! Its called good business practice !! Bubski would also like to address the indexes and classes if he may !! #1 the indexes are way to soft !! If the indexes represent the national standard as they are, its ludicrous to think a 1.20 run is acceptable !! The index and or HP for that combo is not in line !! #2 all the FI 350 Chevys are rated most laughably low compared to their carbureted counter parts !! They sure are rated much higher in Stock than SS !! that's kinda odd as the rating trends go !! Bubskis not picking on them !! there's many more examples ,but this one sticks out in Bubskis mind foremost !! #3 Its time to lower the class count and the nonsense associated with all the subdivisions of classes !! Sticks and Autos race head up together !! There's no more 3600# 2 speed autos anymore and most of the autos are faster than the sticks as I type this !! #4 Get rid of the half pound weight breaks in the GT classes !! A typical GT low class car will add less than a 100# to drop a class and pick up 2 tenths !! #5 PLEEZE have proper tech to bring this mess in line !!

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Bubski is the village idiot.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Bubski would like to ask Mr Rump !! You think the indexes are fine ?? You think your rating is too hard ?? You think all these classes are fine ?? You think theres too much tech ?? you think every underfactored combo is fine ?? If you answered yes to any one of these you should get outta the bottom of you Poole and get sum air !! Cheers KNUCKLEHEAD !!

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Duane ,
The discussion was about 2 tenths under.I was told lowering 2 tenths was stupid.
I disagreed and said why. The 5 tenths was an opinion , as an aside.

I don't know how long you've known Billy, but for me, it's been about 45 years.
You and I know that if Billy wanted to go 5/10's ,year 'round he could.
My point was that it's not real hard anymore to go 5/10's under. I stand by that comment.
If a guy with a 327 stick Chevy II can only run on the current index, who's fault is that?

Back to Billy. If I wanted to fool around with that Cavalier, I doubt that I'd have to rent from him. In fact, he'd probably bring it to the track for me.
Don't anybody get any ideas. It's too fast for me and doesn't have enough pedals.
Anyway , if the indexes were lowered 5/10's, Billy would deal with it.He'd probably just put that Pontiac back together. ;-)

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Hey Bubski, I'm with you on the class count with one small exception, we need a few EXTRA FWD classes. I know that you're above running a FWD car but there are still a few of us out there. Do you know that the average FWD car is stuck in one class by General Regulation; Weight 4.2? But then I'm sure that you know this being the expert on everything S/SS that you are.

And yeah, the Tech thing too. I am paying my membership and entry fees without (usually) complaining under the ASSumption that NHRA will have enough QUALIFIED people on the grounds to keep me safe and give me a "level playing field" on which to compete. If they're not then what am I paying for?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Morning Billy . What we are paying for with entry fees and membership is fattening up the higher up bank accounts . I am not a s/ss racer but been raciing around y’all for 30 so years and this self tech and policing of every class and category has become a joke! The few people they have at a National event can barely keep up with pairing cars in the staging lanes let alone tare downs. Seems it’s a free for all or run what you brung

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Clearly lots to discuss here. Tune in to my new “Tuesday Tell-All” segment-Tuesdays at NOON EST! Watch/participate on Facebook or YouTube.

YouTube.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Bobby, I will tune in. But I think you should have some ideas to get the
thought process going. This is quickly off the top of my head. Feel free
to modify it, crucify it, add to it, etc. We have a NHRA manageable time
range of .85 to 1.20. This is counterproductive to what we think NHRA
and the racers want to accomplish. All of this years races that were
mineshaft are coming back in next year. That will make roughly 50% of
the combos up for review based on YTD numbers. We need to narrow up
the times NHRA wants to manage. What if we suggested something along
this line: The average must change to -1.00 and 2 hits of -1.10 to get a
review. A hit of -1:20 is an automatic NHRA review, where they can weigh
the variables (Weather, Current H.P. Manufacturer Relations!!! etc.) and make their (Hopefully consistent) adjustments. Nobody wants an -.85 under car, take a hit at -.85, and now they have a .70 to .75 under car.
If you get a hit at -1.00 and you can still go -.90 under, its not so bad.
Great idea? Lets compare them to the others. Thanks, J.R.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

I have one question, since there is no tech, no ahfs, no 1.20 under instant hit, & no automatic tear down, even if the motor is sealed, what about the old fashioned way of protests? Can we at least protest? If so I will have an atm machine at my trailer for anyone who needs cash! Nhra doesn’t want to do a tear down? Let’s see how they want to handle this.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Where did it read in the rules no teardown? They tore down cars at Maple Grove that didn't go 1.20 under, same goes for Indy. Did something change?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Ya know, back in the "good-old-days" long before we had the "fair" AHFS (which could be fair if it were handled correctly), if you went very fast you were just given a lump of HP by some heavy-handed Tech whose brother-in-law probably ran the same class with a different combo ;-). BUT, if you went faster than the Natl. Record, you tore down because YOU were the new Natl. Record Holder!
Wouldn't that be an unique concept? How do you slow down a 1.00-1.20 under car to go .45 under consistently? NHRA would/could never go for this because for the first half of the year they would be tearing down 50-60 cars at each event but it would sure make things interesting!

Hey Lonnie, it would also make Stock and SS "Performance Based Eliminators" again!

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Billy want to make performance mean something and have the fast guy's run their cars out more often. Give 10 pts for setting a record. With a max of being able to set 2 records earning points in a class a year. Meaning all of Stock or Super Stock not individual classes within each. Have one threw ten at Nationals only get points for qualifying.
no 1-5pts, 2 gets 4, 3 gets 3, 4 gets 2 and 5 threw 10 gets 1. Cap the max number of points you can get this way by 20. Those up to 40 points would have changed several championships. But still keeping it for the most part those that have done well at races will still have the better chance of winning the championship not just because you have a fast car. BP

Billy if you ever decide to spend some money on your car and make it killer fast you may have a list of guys that want to rent it from you as the end of the year closes in on points earned. At the Dutch put it up for the highest bidder. Be pretty neat seeing number one in the world having to have won the championship in your car.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

I think all they’ve done is make it easier to manipulate the system. Anybody with half a brain can keep the average -.849 or less with an entire year to do it. Mike McMahan 2543 H/SA

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Barry, I absolutely agree with your points deal but I would be giving out more points. At least double the numbers that you suggested. Make it really worth going fast.

Ya know, there's two REALLY fast (like top 10 Indy fast) cars in my garage right now. I don't need to impress anybody.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

What if they stopped letting us lower the average after we hit our race quota? Only above .850 runs count after that....

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Call me ignorant but what is the "Race Quota" or is this going to be something new to keep track of?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

What if there aren't two -1.00 triggers? Do all runs now count?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

I believe the Quota mentioned is a reference to the points claimed quota best 5 of first 8 races count. Any races you go to after first 8 don't count towards your overall points standings

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

That's what I thought Daren was talking about. Realistically, I don't see what one has to do with the other. A savvy Racer is going to go as slow as he comfortably can until he HAS to go fast. How about if your "personal class average" can only go up, not down?

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

Billy just looking at my hp rating now compared to when I first built this combo there's not a lot of savy racers left. And yes I triggered it once upon a time but drug it around the rest of the review period while trying to bring it down to no avail.
Cooter thinks unless there's an automatic trigger even the unsavy racers can play this game as it now sits.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

least two trigger runs of 1.00 or quicker before a review is conducted to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering a review. Trigger runs are not required to be in the same class. Multiple trigger runs can be made by the same car at the same event

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

The way I read the new rule is that all they did was remove mineshaft and automatic HP. Any run of 1.00 or faster WILL flag that combo, 2 flags will cause an automatic review and HP if avg is .85 or better.
So....as long as nobody makes 2 runs of 1.00 or better, the combo will not get reviewed. But....there is just enough wording to give them justification to add HP to ANY combo that has an avg of .85+. With that being said, I myself no longer have a dog in the fight and will not have one again. Not enough tech. I could put an engine in my car that "looked correct"(i.e 400 or 350 shortblock with too much cam instead of a 305) and run .70 under all year, play the sheet to avoid headsup runs, and win races. If you don't think this is being done in this class right now, please unfriend me lol.

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

That is the part I referred to a few days ago that appears to be in conflict with the new language that was added at the top of the page saying "all runs count...."

Re: The mines are now closed (AHFS)
 

The only differences are, no more mineshaft rule. No instant hit for 1.20 under. Everything else is the same. Every run counts except for national open races.