Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Join the show and voice your suggestions. I will send you a link to join. Tuesday at Noon EDT.

https://youtu.be/p1FLXOMr2ro

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

There's beauty in simplicity.

For super stock.

1. Twelve classes. Weight per HP. 5-6, 6-7, 7-8, 8-9, 9-10,10-11, 11-12, 12-13, 13-14, SS/AS, SS/BS, SS/CS
2. Eliminations based on index. No dials.
3. Weight break for automatics.
4. Weight break for pre-80's cars.
5. Weight break for non-FWD conversions.
6. Adjust HP up and down until parity established, including FSS.

For those who say that It'll push people away, my answer would be why bother competing in a performance based class if you want to bracket race?

My car's about 0.7 under in good air. I drive a Ford. With a 20-year old engine. In Modified.

I'm working on my combination one part at a time. I have no intention of running out and buying $12K cylinder heads when I haven't even figured out what my existing combination wants. I would gladly take the losses in the proposal above until I can compete with cars at the top of the class.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Spoke to NHRA California. They have no plans to abandon tear downs on 1.20 under runs or random selections as they deem necessary. Their goal is to support class racing. Volkman

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Well THAT'S GREAT! A little thin on details though.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Billy - did you not have your morning coffee yet :)

What were you looking for? I'm thinking same as what they have been doing with the 1.20 and then spot checking - both that have been done this year. They even have been looking at grids etc in sc and sg

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Hey, no offense to you, it's just always the same old drone.
There have been many different suggestions and ideas tossed around on this thread alone and we get crickets.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

That's a start! When are they going to start looking at grids and data loggers in S/SS? It's about time to start "collecting" ignition boxes and tachometers too.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

That would pretty much kill the class. The HP adjustments would come way too slow and would never keep up. The faster and under factored combos would rule. I cant imagine you would keep going to races if you have absolutely no chance to win. Not everyone in Stock and Super Stock is a millionaire and can spend big bucks to race.
Participation is still good right now despite the high fuel cost. Look at St Louis last weekend. big car count. Most nationals reach their quotas very quickly and there is always racers on here begging to get an entry to nationals. Most divisionals are pretty well attended if scheduled properly. I am not seeing much wrong with our classes right now. Hurting the guys at the bottom half of the Q sheet is not the way to grow the classes.

Personally I think the modified cars should be running in comp but I would never push for that change.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

All the new AHFS has done was make it easier to go as fast as you want to and still have the rest of the year to get your average down. I still have a problem when people talk about all these combo's that are underrated as if there are hundreds of them. I just looked at Indy. It has a pretty good representation of different combo's. In Stock out of the 151 cars how many are underrated ? BP

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

It's a proposal to make the class more competitive. It's not the only proposal. There are way too many classes and not enough performance-based competition. Performance is confined to class eliminations and the occasional heads-up run.

The current situation is akin to the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. I need to work hard on my combination and not just throw money at it. There are lots of guys going way fast who don't have all the bells and whistles seen on the cars in the millionaire's club.

I agree that Modified should be taken out of SS. The only reason I included it is they're already part of the class and not enough of them to run on their own. Given the present state of the class, it would be hard to justify taking them out unless NHRA also took out FSS, GT and FWD conversions. That would really kill the class.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I doubt you would find very many that think Stock or Super Stock is an “everyone’s gets a trophy” class. I know I have worked and raced hard to get the ones I have. No gimmes.
If you really believed what you said you would be running your car in comp eliminator. Instead of super stock. There is a class for your combo there. That’s a different world over there and you have to be really fast to play and have a chance to win. Comp has very few cars competing due to the extreme cost. We don’t want stock and super stock to become like comp. Also eliminating anyones class is not a good idea. How would you like it if your class was eliminated making your combo obsolete.
I enjoy racing and do it as a hobby. I don’t do it to make money although it’s nice to win some once in a while. I have won in every series that I race in. NHRA, IHRA and the local association that we have here in Florida.
I do all of my own work. Build my engines, transmission. Set up the rear end gears. I did all the welding and fabrication on my car. I also did the body work and paint. Not many left that do their own work.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I do most of my work too, including tig welding and machining. Besides chassis work and other fabrication, I welded my block and heads. I also rebuild my transmissions and set-up differentials.

I do have an engine builder. He's amazing at his craft, and an incredible mentor and friend. He indulges me a bit with my crazy ideas, but he's the one who turned a 20 year old road racing engine into a .70 under piece. Not an easy task. I'm sticking with him despite having a decent little machine shop in my garage. He also builds all of his own stuff, and is bad fast.

I want to race Comp, but I love super stock and stock. When I do begin racing comp, I'll still compete in SS, but probably not Modified.

Combining classes doesn't eliminate anyone, it just makes the class more competitive. Having so many classes, working the ladder and shuffling around to avoid heads-up runs isn't exactly in the spirit of performance. Working hard on you stuff to go faster is the epitome of class racing. There are lots of people who still do that, but in many ways they're competing against themselves. Fewer classes would give everyone a chance to show their stuff, not only the millionaires. It may even draw some spectators and sponsorship.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I give you kudos for doing most of the work on your own. Very few cats in sportsman/ bracket racing today, let alone STK/ SS that can do that much.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Thanks Andy. I'm building a stocker with my son. We'll post in the build section toward the end of the year..

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Ya know, I've gotta bring this thread back after a weekend of B.S.ing at the Dutch.
One of my real "pet peeves" in Stock is this whole "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head deal. When this was "sold" to us ( "us" meaning all Stock Racers, not just those who actually have access to "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder heads), it was "sold" to us under the premise that if an "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head was used it was with a 10 HP penalty over the OEM head. What happened to that? The way this deal is right now, the OEM head and the "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head are considered two COMPLETELY different combos by NHRA with their own AHFS factors! Right now, certain "aftermarket" aluminum head MOPAR combos are factored less than the OEM head combo!
I think that it's time to get back to reality here and either do away with the "aftermarket" aluminum heads and stop discriminating against those Racers who don't have access to them or go back to the original intent of the "rule". The OEM and "aftermarket" head should be considered one combo by the AHFS and if the "aftermarket" head gets an AHFS hit then the OEM head takes the hit and the "aftermarket" head is +10.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Billy,
Why +10? Didn't we just talk about this in another thread?




Stan

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Because that's the way it was originally "sold" to us. The OEM head HP factor or the "aftermarket" aluminum head +10 over the OEM head HP factor.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Get a committee:
Bruce Bachelder-
Dave Ley
Current Div. Tech Directors
1 SK/SS rep from each Div,
Have them meet a couple of times to thrash ideas and suggestions, then sit down with Lonnie and devise a plan that is equitable for all concerned.

That would give a broad spectrum to draw from, old school that worked for years and new thinking.
Need to maintain current racers and their offspring as well as bring new blood into the sport.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I liked top stock and superstock

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Are you running for Congress? Form a committee!
We've got ENOUGH committees!
What has our SRAC committee done for us?
We NEED somebody who knows combos and can read a (rule) book!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Once everyone understands, and accepts, the the SRAC is nothing more than a group looked upon by NHRA as an "Appeasing Committee", we can all be over it..

This was the supposed replacement of Len Imbrogno, the way I see it, and it failed.. some reps do take it seriously, but I find it to be nothing more than a clique of non-communicating members.. and actually the NHRA fall guys, or girls.. got a problem, they say??.. bring it to your SRAC rep.. Yup, that always works, RIGHT??

It's a shame that the Rule By Committee thing has settled into NHRA Tech, where fairness and common sense no longer exist, unless the committee likes you..

As I've always said about the Left Coast regime, kick 'em all out, and replace them with REAL RACERS.. many of the issues raised in this thread would be easily rectified..

JUST SAYIN'!!!!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Well, this is probably not the right post to respond
to this.

Last week when we had class in Bakersfield, we put iron
heads on both our Stockers. The only thing the aluminum
heads do for us is take some weight of the nose of the cars.
Even with the 30 pounds off the car the Aluminum heads (We have
the best ones money can buy) slow the car down about 5 to 7
hundreds. Plus, they are very fussy about temp. and consistency.

But the "X" iron heads we have are too valuable and scarce to
run all the time. We will probably never find another set good
enough to turn into competitive stocker heads. I have destroyed
most all my good "X" heads over the last 50 some years. I look constantly
for them and often travel to the big automotive swap meet nearly every month
down in California.

Fortunately, we have three finished sets of top-quality Aluminum heads
as they are no longer produced and getting harder to find as
well. However, we have some hope of finding more as they are only
some years out of production = Not 50+ years and even back then
only a two-year production deal.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

As long as competitors insist on new classes being formed to fit the combo that they are running stock & super stock are dead. everybody wants class money paid but manufacturers cant afford to pay 150+ classes. Can we run & win class if they were combined, not gonna happen with injected cars, but i would rather take my chances with combining classes back to the original 54 classes & still have a class to run. Wake up people, every sanctioning body that has tried to be everything to every body is history now

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Imagine how many sets of "good X heads" you would still have if there were some knowledgeable people in place doing tear downs and it was no longer a mandatory process to have to make stock heads into Stocker heads?
Do you think they would crack if they weren't ground so thin? ;-)

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

The heads I have destroyed have been from going down
the racetrack a lot of passes for nearly 60 years! Things do
break periodically on race cars despite the care they receive.

We run several similar stockers generally 15 times a year
not counting testing and have been since my boys could
drive (They are 33 and 40). It is not from any modification/grinding
or any other form of cheating that was done in preparation of them that broke them.

These heads we mostly find (when we ever do) are beat up from 50 years of driving in a car
on the road and have been rebuilt numerous times by not the best of shops.
With only 4 bolts around the cylinder, they tended to blow
head gaskets and overheat on the road. The heads tend to be very crack prone from
usage and the quality of the castings.

I do not know you Sir and you certainly do not know a DAMN thing about
my race cars! If you get out to Vegas = I would be happy to show
you the destroyed heads and broken pieces anytime you want to
inspect them.

My cars were torn down numerous times thirty years ago or more and were
NEVER found illegal or bounced for anything! Once we were torn down
3 races in a row back then due to "experts" complaining incessantly about our cars.
I guess the techs back then were not any good either!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

John, you've got to re-read my post. It took me a long time to figure out just how to word it so that I would NOT be accusing you of anything more or less than anyone else is doing. I've got a bit more respect for you than that.
Also, I put my "like" under your post before you edited it. If/when I get out to Vegas, I will definitely look you up!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Now this is simply a weekend hobby for us
and we are the furthest thing from experts.

That being said it is our experience on our Small
block Mopar heads = the port configuration (shape)
with its insuring effect on velocity are what actually make horsepower
Not bigger hogged out in size ports (Read thin walls) with impaired
velocity. That and paired with proper valve shape and seat configuration.

But as I stated above = I am not an expert like you are Sir and many others
on this forum and that I have great respect for and have learned a lot from.
I have never claimed either her or anywhere else. to know very much about this Hobby.
However, I do know intimately my nearly a dozen race car and exactly how they are built by us.

After the torment and repeated harassment, we received last week
(Most of which I never even elaborated on except the first of several incidents) =
I am seriously considering retiring from Stock/Superstock after the World finals.
This was after another similar threatening violent incident at Vegas Nationals.
I truly do not feel safe at the track anymore at my age and health. After discussions
with the official and numerous witnesses, I have come to the conclusion that unless
violence is threatened or undertaken toward their officials - they have zero interest in
hearing about it.

I can mail you the head right of my car after that race for your inspection and you can see
for yourself why we do not win class or heads up races very often anymore!

Again, with all due respect Sir: You do not know a DAMN thing about my race cars or
or anything about me none of which you have never even laid eyes upon.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Withdrawn

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

John, you're OK in my book and I'd have your back anytime.
We spoke in Vegas a few years ago. You were racing an Aspen? wagon.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I appreciate the support of all my friends on here.
The issue is that we are all aging out and just can
not contend with someone 1/2 our ages and a head
taller (Not to mention in way better shape even if we do not
want to admit it).

After the last race we attended at April Nationals
in Vegas = In the Superstock staging lanes one of the racers
challenged me to a fight on the spot. He followed me nearly to
the front of the staging lane trying to get me to get out of my Aspen.
Everyone behind me was surprised to see the goings on. It rattled
me so bad that I forgot to turn on the fuel pump and wasted the time
trial.

Following that problem, I was ashamed (I no longer can effective defend myself)
and did not go to any more NHRA races this year until Bakersfield and had
the confrontation in the staging lane in Class Final. It made
it very hard for us to focus and do a good job racing in the final.

I did not elaborate on this earlier in this thread, but my son tells me that the
same folks came to our pit several more times during the race and flipped him off and
tried to instigate a fight while I was resting in the Toter. Apparently, they thought
I was the one that turned them in = But I was not and in fact have never turned in
anyone for a violation no matter how obvious it appeared to be. Actually, I was never
anywhere near his car as I have four of my own to prepare for the race.

I understand the officials position that we need to police our own
battles and they have a race to run. Unfortunately, I have aged out
these last few years and do not have the ability to handle the battles
any longer. Anyone who remembers me from 30 years ago know that
back them = If a man insisted on a fight with me - he could have it. Now
it is not so much being scared the beatings I would get (I have taken
my fair share over the years), but the embarrassment of have
everyone watching me get pummeled in the staging lanes!

Most of my good friends at the track have already passed the last number of
years. They are many of the guys that I so loved so much to visit with there.

So it is probably time to hang up my helmet in the shop and play with the Grandkids.

Sorry for the Rant!

I am truly heartbroken over the turns of event this year that have happened.
Racing is one of the things that keep me going and motivated in these later years.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Twenty years ago you might find one good pair of "X" heads at a swap meet. Others hoard them on some shelf. The head hasn't been produced since 1968-69. and only found on those years 340. In the early 70's how many of those were taken to the speed shop for modifications. The "X" heads on my 340 have been on my stuff racing for 20 yrs alone. My big block heads "906" are nearly as old.

As far as these clowns thinking their best chance to win is physically taking on a well liked/loved senior citizen is hard to hear. I guess that's why friends are dear. Can't please everyone John. I hope these fools do what sometimes is harder than fighting and that is saying sorry my mistake at least.

See at the races,
Paul Haszlauer

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Well let's talk about the 666 and 301 Low Deck "B"
engine as mentioned earlier in this post:

What is my qualification to address this comparison.
Well, I have been racing Low Deck "B" engines since early
60's. Everyone out here has seen both the Roadrunners run
well over a second under on the brakes in Heads Up during
eliminations. They could show off by running 1.20 or more
we the wanted to = But my kids are not Foolish enough to
do that. Incidentally they have been through teardown at national
races and passed.

It is a given that the 301 and 666 are roughly even as produced
from the factory. Now look at the two intakes is with the carbs off.
One has the usual holes you would expect on most intakes while
the 666 has huge oblong trenches going the length of the carb area.
The 666 is easy and conducive to "Clean" and hard to tell if anything
might be unusual while the 301 is a normal style intake.
If you do not think a potentially larger intake plenum will not help air
flow on this engine = well we don't live on the same planet. When all is said and done,
I have found .04 and .05 faster performance back-to-back with the
666 in my testing. I have no reason to obfuscate the issue = we run a Thermoquad
73 combo now. If my post is too obscure to understand = PM me and I will be
much more blunt about what is going on when not on Forum.

Nearly a dozen years ago (3/29/2011) at a Div. 7 race in Vegas, I was at Heart Surgeon
preparing for surgery and my boy and a friend took my new N/SA truck out to the track.
a misclassed it as the wrong year = they did not know the truck and it was an honest mistake.
When I arrived later in the day I immediately asked Pat to take my truck off the ladder
and disqualify it. No one reported me or knew anything about the truck = I did myself.
In the correct class and year, it would have been the incorrect (too light)
weight! I was still awarded the additional 14 extra Horsepower.

We indeed made the mistake and therefore we paid the price. We did not try to
get out of it or attack anyone. If we had let it go in the wrong class it would have
wreck several people's trucks that legitimately ran that class and let us off scot free.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

John,

Do not let others take away your joy, especially in a sport that you enjoy.
There are many of us that enjoy your presence and camaraderie with you at the track.
Don't give up. Giving up is surrendering to others.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

One of the most detrimental trends Bubski is concerned with !! Is the lack of racers goin for the National Record when you just made the quickest and fastest passes in the history of your class yet refuse to put it to the tech test and get the certification for it !! Isn’t this a Performance based Class ?? What happened to the pride in having National Record holder spelled out on your car ?? There used to be 20 plus cars at the Dutch and similar fast Opens and Divisionals 20 years ago to break and set records !!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

It is pretty clear that the head bean counter-CEO only wants to collect money, but will not support any effort to incentivize racers to push the performance of the cars. Heck, they say they are in a great financial position on one hand, but won’t spend a few clams to publish records as they once did.

They lament the lack of employees to provide tech services. That is a real issue and the current generation of tech officials are retiring. Knowing that, NHRA has not done anything to recruit, train and retain the next generation of tech officials.

I think NHRA leadership misses the motivation factors that keep racers spending money and striving to improve performance of their cars. Motivation that also drives parts sales and contingent opportunities. They only look at the cost and inconvenience from their point of view.

Maybe, as racers, we should collectively consider crowd sourcing money and or prizes to be awarded to record setters?

If NHRA won’t do it, they can’t stop racers and fans from doing it.

I know one could also say that the new gen of racer has not the technical expertise to tear down and rebuild their car at the track, and that is a fair statement.. That being said, they are racers and I am sure more would learn what to do if it was worth it to them.

Bubski. You make some good points, your grammar is improving as well. Isn’t it time to come out of the closet?

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Most of us stock and super stock racers are not young any more. I am 64 years old and cant be up all night putting my engine back together after a tear down to set the record. Typically qualifying ends late afternoon or early evening. There is no time to tear down and put the car back together and be ready for first round early the next morning and be fresh enough to race 6-7 rounds. So most choose to not worry about setting records that have no value in points or cash and choose to be ready for the race in the morning. That is my choice. My class has been at a minimum for a several years as most have.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Setting records have been left to opens. It seems even if you wanted to set a record at a divisional. Now a days your first run is to qualify backed off a little in case you need to move. I remember two things years ago that have change things. First the cars that set records got the early Sunday morning freebe run. Also years ago in division one. First round was random paring. You weren't paying attention to the qualifying sheet. It use to be who could build the fastest car with their own two hand ability. Most cars now are built with a wallet.

Paul Haszlauer

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Just a guess, but "Bub" is probably the first part of his real name. He chose "ski" because he is of Eastern European descent, such as Poland or Ukraine where it is common for the last name to end in "ski" but his doesn't. So it would probably be something like Bub___. JR Weis

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Bubski’s name isn’t a bunch of cobbled up parts of any words familiar to Bubski !! It’s a state of being !! Clarity in perception and total honesty!! Bubski is preparing his “ Class Racer “ code of arms !! A manifesto of sorts !! Beware of Bubski !! Carry on !! Cheers !!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

The open races in division one have a test and tune on Thursday's. You can set a record on Thursday and tear apart on Thursday. I did this twice this year at Atco in April and at Maplegrove this past weekend at Dutch Classic. I'm no spring chicken at 63. It was alot to do and I don't know how many more times I can do it. But we race a performance based eliminator and I'm driven by that.