Re: I need to apologize!!
 

Ok, another question. If you can go better than -1.30 which is an instant hit, or go better than -1.15 at will but are unwilling to do it almost anywhere that it counts against the average, then what are you saving it for? I mean your kids I guess can inherit it but if you have the ability to go faster than -1.15 and won't use it unless it's a no AHFS race then when do you intend to use it? Final at Indy in a heads up? We were better off keeping the -1.20 instant hit all along and having NHRA raise the floor from -.350 to -.500 but I realize it was not up to a vote.

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

Tim, you've paid your dues, go out and have a blast!

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

My take on the new -1.30 is that last year there were quite a few 1.20 hits.
If this happens late in the program, the tech guys (the 2-3 that are capable of doing a thorough teardown) , had to stay late for this deal. You can bet they didn't like it.
If they didn't do one, they caught a ration of you know what from the racers
Someone asked for a break, and they got one...Could be wrong but let's see if anyone agrees.

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Rich , A lot of people can go 1.00-1.20 under at No Problen in February,Gainesville or South Georgia in March then struggle to run .90-1.00 under at Topeka in July. What is the right standard? Factoring the weather in is the only way this s—t might ever work and I don’t know that that will help. And I agree with you that we were all better off with the old rules. I think the real problem is that the people who made the decisions on the AHFS revisions don’t understand stock & super stock racers. Mike McMahan 2543 H/SA

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I agree the changes stink. I liked mineshaft rules too. I think the new platform will hurt a lot worse than the older system did. I think NHRA is going to have to reconsider their stance on the, once you get HP you can never get it back, stance. If not it will have a negative effect on the most populated class at Divisionals.
I think giving a tenth back across the board was also a foolish plan. Some combos got beat up already then to hit them with another tenth on top would have crippled many. So I guess the officials came up with what was the best compromise in their minds.
Good luck all. This season will have lots of triggers by the end of the season for many many combos. I hope nobody gets theirs beat up too bad.

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

Y’all know there are a few words written at the bottom to help keep a car competitive.

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

Lower the indexes.

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Frank, you should build a Neon!

Did you post the Stein collage on the HAMB?

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

Linda and I are going to run 11 Nationals,approximately 12 Divisionals and 4 National Opens. We did this 3 years ago and in any Class runs we got our butt kicked. Most heads up we got our butt kicked. The final butt kicker was 3 years ago at the St. Louis double Divisional. We drove 1100 miles only to loose first round in both Divisionals. First one by a faster Nova,,350,second by a faster 383 Mopar.
That was the story of our 22,000 mile travels around the US that year enjoying what most of us love,,NHRA Sportsman Dragracing and the many friends we've made along the way.
This may be about the famous Chevy 350 255hp,,but it's also about our competitors.
The 305 Camaros
The 350 Novas
The 351 Mustang
The 327 Camaro and Nova
The carborated and tuned port Corvettes
And the 383 Mopars
There are several really fast cars in each one of these combos and a cpl that I know we can't beat.
We've run them all and have looked at ALOT of tail lights in heads up. Linda and I decided to spend some $$$$$$ and see if we could,,at least make our competitors ICE THEIR INTAKES and chill their engines!!!
Well it worked,,boy did it work!! Thanks to Glenn Briglio at B&B Auto Machine!!!
8 and 7 years ago we couldn't run the index. Thank God we blew that engine plus a spare. Then,, for the next 3 years we ran an engine I built,but,was no match for heads up. Most Dragracers will never run the events that we do and Linda and I are very fortunate to be able too!!
In the final for Class at Belle Rose we ran against a fast 305 Camaro and I took way to much finish line,,but if this wasn't heads up just a dial run,,I would have tightened it up alot less.
The final in class at the Baby Gators a 350 Corvette,that final,,again I took too much.
Unfortunately both these finals were done with,,
Minimum thin oil
Iced intake
And chilled engine!!!
Unfortunately doing this to run 2 tenths faster will shoot us in the foot,,big time!!
This whole post is about a group of cars in
F,G and H/SA and everyone else from A to Z
that can protect themselves with the new rules to be able in Class or heads up to be able to collect that win. Some of these other combos only have 2 to 4 or less so they can sit back and watch us try to save something in case we see them next year. I'm trying to figure out a setup now to be able to run in the "Slot" so we can dial without stomping on the brakes.
Happy Saturday!!
Bubski,,NO COMMENT!!! LOL

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

Tim, I have waited 20 years to see the 255 competitive again. I've seen you struggle to reach the level that you have plus the cost involved. I also know you were trying to protect your combo while winning. It appears that some are rejoicing at your mistake. I just hope you continue to pursue your dream as we will also.

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

Not fer nuthin' but IMHO if I had a 350/255 car I would be getting to work on a set of 350/300 heads. Again, IMHO (and we know what opinions are like) by the end of this year, the 350/255, the '90s LT-1 and the 396/375 will be "not all that competitive" (I don't want to say dead) players.

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IMHO, even if the 255hp combo gets, let’s say 8 hp, that’s only 88lb in F/SA, which in most cars is probably only about a tenth. So the 1.20 under cars become 1.10 under? Before going around saying the sky is falling, it’s always good to make sure it’s not just a little rain. Even if the 255 combo becomes rated higher than the 300, I think a good set of 441 heads will outperform a set of good 461, 186, or 041 heads.

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What I should have said instead of "not all that competitive" would have been to say "probably not all that capable of winning a heads-up race against a different combo".

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No,even with the additional horsepower, they will still have no issues winning heads up races against some combos.

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I did not. I rarely if ever view The H.A.M.B.

The Neon combination doesn't appeal to me. I like fast cars and there is way too much drama within Stock Eliminator for me these days. Sadly my racing days are over.

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and yet, you HAD to comment about lowering the indexes.

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Did I miss something for a 90s LT1?

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Okay I think your rounding it off and I may need help figuring this out. (I’m a super-gas racer and building a stocker) and I wanted to get this math figured correctly.
If his 1.127 holds as the fastest run and the average is .850 or better he gets 2.25% hit on the 280hp base or 6.3hp that I think is rounded up to 7hp? Then 11.00 x 287 + 170 new weight of 3327 or + 77lbs?
Thanks

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:-) No,you didn't. I did. In A Camaro/Firebird.

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o
Only 88 lbs
Really?
Hears the problem young man.
People spend a lot of time and $ to do these race car things
And I agree It’s your car ..race it how you want .
But when someone’s actions cause harm to other competitors cars and combos
It tends to piss people off .
What’s funny is I know a few people that run this combo but there to polite to complain to the person who causes this possible HP problem
I’ve seen this before when someone is not fast and gets a GOOD PiECE and bangs said combo yet pleads well I didn’t know it would go this fast ..
Well guess what?
This same person will complain about the 88 lbs earned for their decisions to go fast win Class ..And guess what There slow once again.
So when you make a mess of your combo ..you need to clean up your mess
Because you ain’t making friends by making others clean up The Mess

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LT1 never got a trigger yet.

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With adding 88# can anyone name a combo that a 255 can outrun? It couldn't outrun the best prepared 305's before, not the best Mopars now I don't think, some of the other combos I'm not familiar with just how fast they are like the 455 Poncho's. Surely not he Vette's since we couldn't touch them either so what's left. Looks like we're back to the 90's situation to me. Tim barely outrun the late model Dodge so count it out. I'm not complaining just observing.

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No it was the LS 1 in a f body with a fresh air hood, he is running - 70 in Houston. So will the flat hood cars be included? Now those bye runs and red lights need to get run out to get the average down. Tom

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Mike I didn’t do the math just going off your figures. If 3327 lbs is where it ends up NHRA always rounds up so it would be 3330 lbs for new minimum weight. So would be 80 lbs but if -1.125 is in fact the fastest run.

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Ya know, I can agree with everything that you've said here Ponko. I may not relate to it but I can see your points.
Story-telling time, I got a phone call from a Racer on Friday. He wanted to know if I had any Dime Rocket P.O.S. stuff laying around that he could use or throw together to run this year. Now this Racer has some VERY fast stuff of his own but he doesn't want to run his own stuff because it's "too fast" and he doesn't want to slow it down. He also likes working and tuning his stuff to try and make it faster and now he can't. He wants a P.O.S. that he can tinker with and go as fast as possible without having to worry about it.
Here's the point of this story, the Racer is pushing 80 years old! How long does he plan on racing and who or why is he trying to "save" his combo? He has legitimately worked and spent what it took to get his stuff to this point only to be afraid to go too fast. WHY? IMHO, he should be out enjoying every bit of the fruits of his labor while he still can.

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

It will only be a two pound gift but NHRA will round the 3327# down to 3325#

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It's already triggered so have fun! Like my buddy says... "RUN IT LIKE YOU JUST STOLE IT!" and like I always say... "there ain't no bragging rights with sandbaggers!! ����

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[QUOTE=Billy Nees;677942]and yet, you HAD to comment about lowering the indexes.[/QUOTEf

Billy,

Yes, it's my belief that would eliminate the AHFS equation and allow the racers to enjoy their hard work and money spent to go fast.

I started racing in the late 1970s, had some modest success and have been a member of this forum since 2001. If you don't like my opinions, I can live with that.

Frank

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Boom!! This right here!! I have been watching this thread waiting for the right moment to chime in. After talking to Daren Poole-Adams (who drives a slow 302 COPO hahahaaha) I’ve been thinking again.

I came from racing heads up NMRA and NMCA. It was a lot of work to stay top of the heap because others were working as hard or harder than I was. Really very gratifying that we were able to hang with some great racers. I had many friends that ran NHRA Stock and Super Stock. I had grown used to a .400 Pro tree and heads up racing. Like Biily’s buddy here I enjoy working on and improving the performance of my race car. After driving a bunch of Daren’s COPO’s I decided to take the plunge and build my own Stocker.

I had several racers tell me to scour the guide sheets for fast combinations. They also said look at combinations that no one else wants to run. Stick cars, Fords or Mopar’s have less racers and some fast combinations.
Any late 60’s to early 70’s Chevy product had a ton of racers and the indexes have been beat up.

I settled on a 2010 to 2014 Cobra-Jet platform. Jesse Kershaw had done a great job getting a lot of combinations in the guide for that platform. I had attended many races watching the racers with these combinations and how they qualified at Indy without an AHFS in place.

I really like the COPO’s but it was a big up front cost for me. The COPOO’s that were raced were getting hit on their index’s within a year of their release. You would need to spend big $$$ to hang with the fast guys.

I went with a stick shifter 4 valve Ford Coyote Combination . I chose a slower combination (2012 302/ 325HP) to get my car sorted out for the first year. That turned into 2 years. After George went -1.21 under at Vegas we are now at 336HP. I was planning on jumping to the 2013 302/350HP combination so that made the decision easy. Now the problem is that that combination is softer than the 325 now 336 deal. I had to slow my car down to try to preserve the index.

Looking at what Mike Fuller and Charlie Downing have done I will run mostly in Super Stock this year. I might be slow there but I can work on my performance without having to slow the car down.

There will always be racers to work harder, spend more money and or time to be fast. With the value of some of the older cars it might be more cost effective to change combinations.

Robin

Re: I need to apologize!!
 

COPOO's....

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If a combo has two runs if 1.20 under it will take 20 runs of .800 under to bring the average to .836 under. So all is not lost maybe just a few heads up races.

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Robin Lawrence said THIS!!!

There will always be racers to work harder, spend more money and or time to be fast.

So True!

Mike McMahan 2543 G/SA

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only to "have" to slow their stuff down and complain about it.

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This should be going on much more often than it does.

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NHRA did lower the indexes back in the early 90's, I believe, by 2 or 3 tenths. But many complaints reversed that decision as I recall. I talked to several stock racers this weekend in Pheonix and lowering the indexes was a very popular answer to this whole problem. The slowest car in stock was -35 under the index. That would have left him with a .15 second cushion. As a racer, I always enjoyed watching qualifying. Not anymore, almost every car was running 70 to 90 under. That ruined watching qualifying for me. It's not 1977 when I started in Stock. Even my old home built car will run -50 under the index. Times change, so should the indexes.

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Lowering the indexes across the board does absolutely nothing. It changes the numeric values is all that does. A soft combo is still a soft combo but instead of it being a -1.30+ capable car it becomes a -1.00 second car as number 1 Qualifier at Indy let's say.
That is why NHRA uses the AHFS which is flawed obviously but has it's merits. It's the manipulation of it that makes it ineffective.
Lowering the indexes across the board just puts the number at a different value across the same board.
It's like cutting a foot off the top of your blanket and sewing it on the bottom and thinking you shortened your blanket.

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NHRA did drop the Stock indexs down 3 tenths in 2009 or 2010, the fast guys were still the fast guys, the slow guys were still the slow guys, the only thing that was really effected was the slowest guys at the bottom of the qualifying sheet. If they couldn`t run at least the new index, some opened their wallets and "stepped up", but many just threw in the towel, and either quit or went bracket racing. Not really sure how making the fields even smaller, by discouraging the low buck, or guys that want to do everything themselves, or guys that like running a considered "un competitive" combo, because they like that car or engine, really is a benefit to the future of class racing. Seems some guys are complaining about dwindling car counts, not really sure than kicking to "bottom feeders" in the crotch is going to help in that department. Not everybody has the budget to buy a new COPO, or Cobra Jet, or even the budget for a $15,000 + pro built engine. And some guys, just like tinkering with what they have. Yes, aftermarket heads, intakes, carbs, lightweight brakes, seats, $6000 "trick" transmissions have allowed some guys to pick up their pace considerably, but not all combinations have the whizzy engine "enhancements" available to them, and others may not want to alter their cars to that extent. I have never seen Casey Miles Z/28, but I think it is great that guys like him are still out there racing, with an old school car.

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I would enjoy the reinstatement of the qualifying points with a twist. The twist would be ten qualifying points equals a grade point. It would be great to have the qualifying points included in the points chase. That will make some interesting runs later in the year.

This is about performance

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Agree, there needs to be more incentives to go fast for the AHFS to work. The way it is currently, NHRA has incentivized .70 under runs. Bobby Fazio had a nice list of such incentives. The SRAC should take up consideration of a performance incentive program that if widely supported by currently active racers, should be recommended to NHRA.

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Believe Qualifying #1-5 should be recognized (either as average highest position based on 5-8 races or even at the individual race) with awards ($) but not count toward the points chase. In that scenario is it likely that D'Agnolo wouldn’t be carrying the Number 1 on his car? Probably. Would D'Agnolo, Kevin Helms or Jody Lang need to change classes and acquire or build the best combo in order to prove they worthiness to wear #1? Would hate to see the deepest pockets have an advantage over the best drivers.