Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

I dyno a good bit with Gale Powley down in Charlotte. He is good friends with the previous owner/manger of Victory Valves. Victory's shop is nearby. He was telling Gale that the new owners walked over to the area where they made the valves that Gale has been using. What's this? They explained the NHRA guys use them in their cars. The corporate guys says "Well not very many of them, its a very small market."They will have to use the titanium ones from now on like all the other racers do!" LOL . With a snap of the finger, another part we rely on is eliminated.
Most of these big corporations are only interested in mass markets.
Houston....we have a problem..

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

So... does that mean we can run titanium valves in stock eliminator now?!? :eek:

LOL

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Back from a 7 day time out, must have been something I said. lol

It's crazy that no one has stainless valves right now. Like no one.. The Ferrea hollow stem stainless also isn't available and right at $64 each now. Crazy times right now.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

The "covid" fraud/scandal wrecked the supply chain. It put a ton of businesses out, never to return. It allowed the "private equity" companies to buy more companies. It changed the industry that supplies our sport. Forever. It also changed the raw materials industry, probably forever. There are alloys, steel, stainless, and aluminum, that are in extreme short supply. Almost everything in your modern race engine is made from a raw material that not only more than doubled in price, but now must be ordered 6-18 months ahead of the time it is needed, paid for in advance, and then prayed for.



Understand, the most popular and highest demand products, with the best profit margin are gong to be made. Everything else is on the back burner, and gets the scraps, in both raw material, and manufacturing time. We are a niche market, small numbers, and low volume, especially those racing older stuff, and even more for those racing rare and oddball stuff. And unless there is a dramatic change in fortune for the Republic, and the economy, it will never be the way it was, or even get close. Never.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Exactly. We don't matter to the people who run the massive private equity companies. Every single time you see a company founded by racers, or car people in general, bought by a private equity company, you're seeing another piece of our sport slip away. They don't know us, they don't understand us, and they don't like us, they don't care about our sport.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Ya know, back in the "good-old-days" of S/SS/Jr.S racing, everyone ran junk. Now, everyone is some kind of an elitist snob and has to have the best of everything or they can't go racing!
I think I'll just keep slingin' my junk. I'm having just as much fun and running for just as much money as the snobs.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Ya know, Billy? With all due respect, I ain't met all these "elitist snobs" you keep talking about. I've met a lot of people who had nicer stuff than we did. Some were faster. Some were not. But the attitudes I ran into had little, if anything, to do with money. Or parts.


Money only makes people more of what they are without it. Me? Well, you can ask a lot of people, I'm a ......... well, I ain't gonna post that on Ken's site. I'd be the same if I had millions.


The more I think about it, the more I think you missed the entire point of the post you quoted, it went over your head I guess. I'd hate to think you just ducked intentionally, but then, maybe you did.


The point of that post is, you won't be racing, either. If you think that "little old you", and your "junk", by yourself, will keep the doors open on all these drag strips, and keep these people putting on these races, you ain't watchin all of them close. I'm pretty sure class racing can't survive and keep losing participants. Whether you like those people or not.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Alan, I've only met you once. At that time, I got the feeling that you and I aren't that much different from one another. With that being said, you know all-too-well what I mean by the "elitist snobs" and if you don't then you just don't want to know or you just aren't looking very hard.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

I agree Billy, i have seen paint jobs on some stock and super stock cars tht cost more $, than my whole build will be. I am doing everything in the dive way and a 20x20 garage with my washer and dryer in it

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Alan, I missed your "edit"! I don't "duck" anything or anybody. If drag strips are going to survive in the long term then it will be because of local Racers supporting them and local Track Owners coming up with some real out of the ordinary thinking. Class Racing is already "dead" in the way that old men like you and I know it. It just hasn't lied down yet.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

The edit came when it struck me how far off you were from the point I was making in the post. I struggle every day trying to find parts, much less afford them, so that I can keep people racing. It's the same with every person I know in this business, especially those who are supporting class racing.



Class racing is like the Republic, it's dead if we all let it die. Class racing can survive. Hopefully the Republic can as well.



I've never been one to be concerned about the cost of a paint job, the size of a rig, or the price on a store bought car or engine. I don't judge anyone that way. I've never understood the fixation with "how much the other guy has". It ain't how I measure people, and it ain't how I compete.



I've been treated quite well by a lot of wealthy people in racing, a lot of successful racers, and some who are both. I've been treated well by people faster than us, and by people slower than us. I can say that I have been made to feel I belong, by people in racing who could lose the entire sum of my life's earnings and possessions, and not even miss it.


Sorry, those people ain't my enemies, and most of them ain't the source of my problems, or the problems faced by class racing, or the Republic. I've got more important things to worry about. You can go right on hating on whoever you want to.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

I'll stand by my words.

I've been treated well by some very "wealthy people" in my lifetime too. A couple of them are my best friends and I would do anything for them because I know that they would do the same for me.

The "issues" facing S/SS racing (IMHO) have far more to do with the "elitist snobs" who want to keep changing the "rules" to benefit themselves and the people who are letting them get away with it. I don't personally care if a Racer wants to spend his last dime on his stuff. It's his money, he can spend it as he likes. As long as said Racer is doing it within the Rules and isn't getting "things" approved that the average Racer can't get or afford.

And "hating" is a pretty strong word. You don't know me THAT well.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

I hope this doesn't come from the spirit of the original post. Because if you think it's a bad thing trying to get a head legal that we can actually get, just say that.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

IMHO, if a Racer is racing a certain combo then said Racer should have parts to maintain that combo. If the parts to maintain that combo no-longer exist then maybe it's time to change your combo. UNLESS EVERY combo is given access to the SAME REPLACEMENT parts.
Just because a Racer is running a popular combo shouldn't (it does) entitle said Racer to be allowed to use parts in his combo that aren't available for every combo.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Apparently, you know people trying to change rules to suit themselves that I haven't met and don't know. There are a few I ain't met, and don't necessarily care to. And there are some of those who cheated, got caught, and got their cheating legalized. They're not "elitist snobs", they just cheated and got away with it. That ain't about money, other than they found someone willing to pay them to work that hard at cheating, and risk the consequences. Yeah, they screwed things up for everyone else. Hell, some of them ain't even in business anymore, some may not even be above ground. But I'd say it was more about them getting money from people who don't do their own work than it was about having money of their own.



Yeah, NHRA is a problem. And we ain't gonna change it too easy.


Yeah, I'm from the group who thinks that aftermarket parts were mostly a very bad idea, porting and polishing should never have been allowed in Super Stock, Modified cars shouldn't have been in Super Stock, etc. Highest compliment I've ever been paid was from an old school legend who told my wife that "me and him, we cave men, we old school, we from when you raced and you worked on your stuff, we went fast that way."



Like I said, further up in this thread, for most of this stuff, the genie is out of the bottle, and ain't no one here gonna get it back in. The best we can do is try to advocate for common sense within what we have now. Cryin about what happened won't stop it from gettin worse, and it won't make it better.


I never claimed to know you well, at all. You can call it whatever you like. Whatever you want to call it, it ain't got nuthin to do with what I was talkin about in that post. Or any other post I made in this thread. Like I said, carry on.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Your upset with the wrong people.

Same could be said to pick a combo that allows the replacement parts.

We can go around and around. The powers that be control everything.

This casting will never be approved, and we will never be able to save the racer $3000.. It was all about availability and money trying to attract more to this class.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

I have no dog in this hunt but the precedent has been set for allowing lots of aftermarket parts that are a lot different than the parts they replace. One example I can think of is the Edlebrock Pontiac heads with the round separated exhaust ports for the D port motors in super stock. Super Stock can now work the chambers so as long as the valves are roughly in the same place, everything measures right and they are the right valve angle what’s wrong with allowing heads with better material.

NHRA has the Edlebrock heads legal for stock for the 67-70 small block Chevy with as cast ports of 185cc and the legal number is 165cc. Looking at this from a cynics viewpoint I think maybe Edlebrock is being treated differently than other folks. What’s fair for the goose is fair for the gander!

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Since the rules let the head porter modify it almost however he wants does that really matter? It really comes down to does the port come in under the max cc's. If so then it is good.



Stan

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

The way I see it, for super stock only, if the follow criteria are met, what difference does it make to approve a raw casting?

Correct valve angle
Correct valve placement
Correct port heights
Correct chamber design
Correct CCs

What am I missing?

For those who may think the existing NHRA aluminum heads somehow better represent the factory heads they're replacing, send them to me and give me two days with a tig torch.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

"What am I missing?" The NHRA-APPROVED casting number by NHRA

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Can you explain what you mean by this?


Thanks,
Stan

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

No raised ports.

I would consider correct port height to be the highest point you could reach in an OEM casting without grinding through the roof. The height would be relative to the deck.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

That's it? You trying to protect that Pontiac head?

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Correct
the correct part number and casting number for the NHRA-approved Pontiac head part number is 60587, and the casting number is 6058. The casting number is inside the valve cover near the middle head bolt 6058

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Guys,
There's a supply issue with everything now my biz and everyone is suffering those pains. We have been getting valves, just takes longer but can't get hollow stems. Took me almost a year to get titanium for my modified engine.
Opening up the rules to brand x castings isn't the answer. That just gives unfair advantages without proper vetting. I say go thru approval process like always is fair and necessary.
Part numbers need to be maintained and enforced!
There's way more going on with the aluminum heads being used that some people dont understand. We engineer engines and cast cylinder heads and intakes and trust me there's certain rabbit hole you don't wanna START!!
Blessings!!

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Let's use the Chevy aftermarket heads as an example since they are popular.

How much power do some of you guys think the aftermarket heads are making vs the OEM? And with the weight add, is it still worth ET?

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

I was just teasing you.

I've always liked your car and followed GT/EA (GT/AA) pretty closely for years.

The good news is that from what I can tell they're looking to get the head approved presumably with an NHRA casting number.

My point was, if the valves, ports and chambers are correct after porting, what possible reason could there be to not approve it?

Admittedly, a thicker casting could be used to create a much better port shape. But, that could also be achieved with grinding and filler rod in an approved head.

I have no investment in this argument. I genuinely couldn't care less. It just seems to me that a porter's casting could alleviate a lot of headaches and actually cost less to port in the long run.

I also see the other side of the argument, in that it could lead to an argument for billet heads down the road, which would go beyond what many consider a class that has already gone way too far.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

To clear up what we had in mind, the NHRA logo, it’s own part number, TRUE oem valve spacing, and available to whoever through multiple sources.

But it’s all good!

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

If NHRA allows this then Cubic Money will prevail like most $30,000 for a set of heads would be the norm,

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

personally I have no issue with the aftermarket heads as long as the HP factor is appropriate for the increase in performance if there is one. My Combo there is a 10 hp penalty for running the aftermarket heads. I still run the factory iron heads on my car. I would like to have a nice set of brand new aluminum heads but I am not going to spend 10 grand on a new set of heads at this point in my life. There are guys out there where money is no object.

When NHRA approved the Edelbrock heads they should have gotten some sort of agreement with Edelbrock that theywould produce a certain number of each head that was approved every year. Now we have a list of approved heads and some of them cant be purchased. NHRA should be looking to add to their list of approved heads seeing how Edelbrock has indicated they wont be making the heads that were approved for us.

Re: Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads
 

Edelbrock/NHRA should have gotten with someone that knew something about cylinder heads and not legalize a train wreck! :)

Good for guys like me, guess I don't know why I'm thinking that. Just a hard pill to swallow when it could have been much closer. AND I personally tried to tell them the shortcomings, but no luck.