Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

But you're saying that roller lifters and roller cams are necessary for Stock Eliminator..


Maybe you should help Terry fix his problems.



:rolleyes:


What I wrote is factually correct.


Converting to roller cams and lifters will require entirely new lobe designs.


Oh, and you can then use even stronger valve springs, turn more RPM, break something else, and cry for another rule change.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Maybe you should keep you Ill-founded opinions to your self ,you appear to lack any knowledge about what you are talking about ,put simply what you wrote is not factually correct ,you maybe better served to keeping your opinions to your self .

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

You know, that's actually decent advice. You should take it.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Ignoring pushrod angle against the lifter. A flat lifter / cam really produces no side loading.


Again ignoring pushrod angle against the lifter. A roller lifter / cam will produce side loading. Look at pressure angle.


While a roller lifter doesn't the max velocity limit of a flat lifter, at does have other limits. Again look at pressure angle.



Stan

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Yep.


And they haven't gotten into the differences in lifter diameter, lifter wheel diameter, or what all of that will do to the rest of the valvetrain, like the rocker arms, rocker studs, rocker stud bosses......




As usual, a lot of people THINK they know. Then they'll be stunned at the can of worms they opened. They fail to understand, they do not want that genie out of the bottle, because it will NEVER go back in.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Maybe taking a couple of steps backwards would help Stock more than of going with parts that would cost more money and people with deeper pockets having advantages. Stock as stock, hydraulic lifters back where they belong in the engines that came with them from the factory. Have a valve spring pressure rule to where an engine family can run +30 lbs from design.
With the changes, there wouldn't be a big need of the AHFS, cars would fall back to the performance levels that were expected.
If you haven't noticed, but the age of the racers isn't getting any lower. New blood can't afford a Stock prepared car because of rules that don't make sense about a stock car.
This is just my opinion, I don't need hate replies.

Casey Miles
248H Stock

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

When's the last time a lifter wheel diameter was checked. Has it EVER. Advantage?

My recent lifter problem is due to coating. Coatings seem to not hold up. I really don't understand why not. I'm a retired tool & die maker/maintenance so I've seen and know the extreme pressures steels are under in die stamping/forming and coatings holding up in those operations. AND usually with very little cooling from oil, etc. What I'm trying to understand is how at the pressures of a lifter/valve spring (on a stocker) that the coatings will not hold up. Some of those forming/stamping operations use thousands of pounds of force with absolutely no or very little wear.
I'm sure (from emails I've received) that I'm not the only one fighting this problem. It makes since that a smaller lift and lighter weight valve train doesn't seem to have the problem. My problem is complicated by the fact that all flat tappet motors are at a disadvantage because of lifter surface and roller lifters are adjustable by roller wheel, bushed wheels and oils.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

If you look at what I posted. "It is all in there" The "Trace Point" / "Pitch Curve" will change as roller wheel radius increases or decreases.


Stan

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

As stated above. I'm retired. On a fixed income. Would like to spend a few of my retirement years racing. Hell, I ain't sure I can even get into the car anymore, it's been so long.
Keep in mind we're talking about motors that were produced in the 1960's and 70's. There hasn't been a flat tappet motor to come out of Detroit since 1985. So, we're talking at least 40 year old motor design. When was the last set of Shubeck's made? At least 10 years maybe 15.
Some people have said. I see you have your car for sale. YES I do. Mainly because it's a pain for an old timer with arthritis to get in and out of. Some have also said it's another nail in the coffin for the stockers. Let me tell ya something. That horse left the barn A LONG TIME AGO. If the rule were changed I doubt it would say you have to run the roller lifter.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Are you delusional? If you're running a big-block anything in Stock then you're in a highly populated class. If the rule is changed then your competitors WILL take advantage of it meaning you WILL be forced to take advantage of it or you will not be competitive.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Yes and No. Some of the OHC motors are cam on bucket and the bucket really is nothing more than a large diameter flat tappet.


Stan

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I don’t see any ( Likes) so that pretty much sums it up.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Exactly Billy.
It’s not just a cam and lifter change, it’s pushrods/ springs and Ret. Possibly valve length too…

Then comes the gear stack plus converter and tune changes. Cha ching!

Even funnier, telling someone you don’t like their opinion on an open forum.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Billy,
Realistic might be a better word. Yep, your right the Big Blocks classes are very competitive. Maybe that's what makes me tic.? The Oval Big Blocks are not as much desired because they just won't spin like the rec port motor. The request for roller lifters has nothing to do with being more competitive as it does with fairness and NHRA waking up and looking at motors that are 40 years old (big and small block) and making parts available without a wait of 4-6 months and a quote of $2400 from one manufacture.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

The likes are coming in by Email since no one wants to show they do like. Hell, I was union steward for over 20 years. I've heard it ALL BEFORE. No ones getting a cherry. .

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Terry I’m retired like you and I get it. I’ve never failed a cam or lifter yet….. I hope never. Lately I’ve had some costly issues not related to part fail.
I like others see it as a huge cost increase as well as another way to rpm these things. That brings on taxation of parts. Like the rest of the changes -it doesn’t stop there.
What’s next?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Have yall looked at the Howard's direct lube solid lifters?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Yes.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

So can you elaborate?
Feel free to PM...
I'm here to learn.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Is this really a spring pressure problem, or a material quality issue?
I seem to hear others having similar issues with street/strip type cam profiles.
Wondering if it is not a more widespread problem than aggressive profile / high spring pressure that magnifies the problem?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Barry,
Change is inevitable.
I feel your pain about no where to race in Cal. Does that mean your gonna quit? Prob not. Would that be considered change? Get the point? Some changes we like, some we don't.The lifter issue is not going away. Hell, cam companies won't even suggest a lifter because of failure rates. I bet half the guys running flats are using 15 year old Shubecks. That's a gamble I don't want to do, again. lol

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

It comes down to the different way that the information encoded in the lobe is transferred to the valve train. If you look at a flat lobe and a roller lobe that will produce identical valve lift curves, you can see how much different the lifter lobe interface is.

Stan

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Terry,
You are running "Stock". Just how many of your engine parts came from the OEM as part of that engine?



Stan

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

It is very easy to say that "change is inevitable" when the change in question is of your personal interest. There is a difference between inevitable and preventable. Big changes like this that would effect everyone are definitely preventable. In no way am I saying that flat tappet cams and lifters are superior to their roller counterparts. The issue would be me trying to come up with at least another $1,000 just to try and remotely keep up with my competitors with much deeper pockets. At this moment in time, I doubt that any lobes for, example, a flat tappet sbc with a .390/.410 lift exist in a roller profile. And I highly doubt that they are going to want to design new lobe profiles for free.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

WRONG. It would effect aprox 40% of stock. Remember, flat tappet are the minority now.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Well let's see.
Stock 50 year old head castings.
Stock 50 year old intake casting.
Stock 40 year old OEM oil pan and Timing cover.
Stock 50 year old Carburetor.
Stock 40 year old rods that have been reconditioned.
Stock 50 year old crank that has been reworked.
Seems the few things like valves, springs, cam, lifters, rings, pistons, and bearing are about all that isn't OEM.
OH, stock 50 year old valve covers.
Really not sure what your getting at with the question??

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

So you're saying that the current roller cam cars wouldn't be effected by this? How about them trying to figure out how to make their cars faster when suddenly they are being outrun by cars that used to have flat tappet cams, even though in a lot of classes, but not all, the fastest cars in said category are currently flat tappet combos?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Has anyone converted Shubeck Hyd over to solids?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Will you stop with your 40% quote. I looked at Indy qualifying last time you wrote that and found 3/4 of the field were older cars..You then told me it wasn't a fair race to judge. I just looked at our D1 maple grove divisional, and with 118 cars. 70 of them were 1983 and earlier.
You sure like to slant your agenda. You need to come up with a plan to make a cam survive in your car. Maybe get with John, who although supports your cause, stated he has 8000 rpm big blocks that survive. Haven't you been trying to sell your car? Are you building a roller cam car if you do?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

You would be much better served if you , and many others on here with your misinformation about what I support or don't support , I would hope you are smart enough to stop assuming, you have no clue about many topics that are discussed on here ,you out of all people would ask others to stop with there quotes when yours ,and your partners are false ,one sided , and worst of all you lack any knowledge on what is really going on with the lifter challenges. You may want to catch the next bus ,and come out here to Pomona I will be there to discuss with you and NHRA any ,and all the facts

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

So you don't support roller lifters in stock? My apology if thats the case, but It does appear you have success without having to run roller cams and lifters.
What I dont understand is why are some having success without running tool steel coated lifters and some not. Does it have to do with the inferior cams or lifters not being able to tolerate lifters bores not aligned correctly?
Is the movement to go to roller lifters and billet cams to try to save cost? If so, why isn't there a movement to go to stock ring width? You could almost buy a a set of billet cam and lifters for what some have into ring packages with spacers. Evolution has put us in this situation, and it appears there is no going back. But for every new rule change, such as a roller lifter change, it would bring in a cost that those with money would excel, and those without would be farther behind the gap.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Is everyone running the same cam / same manufacturer? In most cases looking at the lift plots of different cams really doesn't tell you anything. You need to look at velocity, acceleration and finally jerk to see what the differences might be.

Are different people running different shift points? Remember the loads and force don't increase linearly.


Stan

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Straight from the VPUTUS !!!!!! " There's a Time in our Time when the Time is here ,to move forward in Time ,and that Time to run roller cams is the Time to take the Time to run SS, which has roller cams since its beginning in Time and Time to leave Stock as it is in Time !! " Cheers !!!

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

The cat is already out of the bag when it comes to stock eliminator. Not much on a stocker is stock anymore. I dont race stock but do watch what happens to the class.
Lots has change over the years. Lately the lifter rule to allow solid lifters in an engine combo that was hydraulic. Next was the new rule that allowed roller rockers. How many still run hydraulics and stock rockers. Probably not many. There was also the spring rule. Stock diameter any pressure. most of the later model cars that run stock now have roller lifters. I can see that change being approved in the near future for the older combos.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Pretty sure it already has. Can you say Dragpac, Cobrajet, or Copo?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Ok please don’t roast me. I’m just asking/learning. Say you have 2 cars that fall in the same class. One is a factory roller combo. One is a flat tappet combo. If you give the flat tappet guy a roller cam. Didn’t you just give him a way to make more power? A roller cam can run a more aggressive ramp and way more spring pressure. How do you even that out? Please don’t say AHFS. You can’t just pull a number out of your behind either. Because not every combo will pick up the same. So you can’t just throw “X” hp on everybody that switches. Then do you make everybody switch to a roller cam even if they don’t have trouble with flat tappets? Or do you have 2 factors in the book. One for flat tappet one for roller. Or do you knock hp off all the factory roller cam combos. Then again how much? Sounds like a big ol can of worms. Where no matter what someone is going to like it. And others won’t.

For the record. Full disclosure. My junk is slow. I didn’t race it much before I got hurt working and had to stop racing. I didn’t plan to be off this long. But I have bought a BUNCH of parts to get faster if I can ever get back in the car. My combo is a factory roller. But no matter what they decide. I’ll probably get my as handed to me in a heads up race. So it doesn’t matter one way or another for me. So I’ll keep my opinion to myself. But I’ve read a few of these threads now. And I always wonder how you’d make it even.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Just like the approved heads, you’ll pay a penalty. That could be a costly penalty.
Butttttt NHRA has already signaled on this one.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Ya that’s what I kind of figured. But that’s a lot of different combos to figure out how many hp they get hit with for switching to a roller. Then do they make everyone change or have 2 factors flat &roller. We know NHRA is trying to cut labor costs. Look at tech. My bet is it’s a combination of the complaints that will follow and labor costs. Are what’s stopping them more than letting stock slip away a little more.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Yeah, let's take a look at how THAT turned out. The original intent of that ruling was that certain (yes certain not all) combos could use an "approved aftermarket aluminum head" with a 10 HP penalty. However, after the ruling went through "someone" in the NHRA Ivory Tower decided that they should be considered different combos when it came to the AHFS. Now there are combos where the aftermarket head is factored less than the original head. How'd that happen? No more flat 10 HP penalty, different combo.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

It will come down to you have to computer register and answer a number of questions and the computer will give you your HP / weight. Now lets say you hurt that engine and show up with your backup engine which has different heads, cam etc., just imagine the fun when you get to the track and try and change your entry. :eek:

Stan