Re: U/SA
 

How many of us remember he U/SA shootout at no problem raceway. I know Ron was there as were about a dozen U/SA competitors. We had special parking for the U/SA players and the time trials were all themselves. Lot of fun and would be fun again. Who else remembers beside me??

Re: U/SA
 

Being a Ford guy, maybe I am a bit biased, but all NHRA did was lower the 302 2 barrel combos back to the factories original HP rating. It had been factored to 200 HP across the board , which I believe, was way too high, which would likely explain why nobody was running those combinations. Now, what about many other combinations, that NHRA dropped the HP ratings, well BELOW the factory ratings? Guess nobody seems to mind when THOSE cars qualify at or near the top, not to mention are allowed to run a bunch of "accepted" aftermarket components, which are not available to some other engines, including the 302 2 barrel Fords, or for that matter many of the "lower classed" combos.

Re: U/SA
 

You mean, like a certain corvette a few years ago??

Agree 100%

Re: U/SA
 

Hi Rory,
You know me..an occasional Ford guy, but this has been my problem with the wholesale de-factoring of the 302.
Why just them? What about everyone else getting back factory hp?
Fair is fair, right?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/CGPage...9&MAKE=Mustang

1980 255 V8 is rated higher than most 302 2 bbl's
http://www.classracerinfo.com/CGPage...0&MAKE=Mustang
Does that make any sense...to anyone?

Re: U/SA
 

If you gonna give 300 combinations -30 hp on one pen stroke (and I’m sure wasn’t even ask for) then by god if one gets hit with hp they all should if it’s a herd thing. All I’ll say is I’ll be there. Mike Graham was only one to truly “build” one for BJ… I put a 008 light in her went -134 in 3000 ft of air and she kicked my *** by 1.5 wagon lengths. So if Mike puts the tune up back in that lil mustang it’ll be hard to beat. And yes mr Tustin we had a blast Daran Summerton didn’t sober up till Tuesday. And damnit I pushed the beams and Bear Tarrance got the Wally

Done preaching >>> and the 302 hp guy hosed me again on the elcamino 😡

Re: U/SA
 

Jack, I assume that you are aware that there were several different 302 2 barrel combinations, different piston volume, head ccs, cam lift, carb size, etc, not to mention car models, suspensions, wheelbases etc. So if your opinion is that if one 302 2 barrel gets hit, every 302 2 barrel combination should also get hit, would it not be fair to in your mind, that if, say a 1966 Nova with a 283 4 barrel got hit, so should every 283 4 barrel combination, including a 1960 Brookswood station wagon with a 283 4 barrel ? Or would that not be fair?

Re: U/SA
 

Yes I agree but never before has all those different combos get hp off at once !! And because it’s the lowest v8 class they all fit U !😳😡

Re: U/SA
 

Gees Jack a wagon and a half. Is that like a "league in the sea equaling 3 mile?"
Careful Mr Wong found another combo for the truck that fits "U" I get the 1.20 under 65 Plymouth for fill I guess.

Paul Haszlauer

Re: U/SA
 

Rory, I don't deny the 302 combos needed a little help to be competitive but to put them back to factory was overkill. NHRA has to take into consideration what makes sense and that wasn't done in this case. My car is a natural U car and was competitive in U before the Fords received their big gift. I was one of the lucky ones, 300 lbs of ballast and it's a V car but the other V8 cars didn't have this available to them.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: U/SA
 

I've always wanted to build a stocker, no way can I afford it, so I'll buy....I'm a ford guy so I can buy a "CJ for $125,000" or a "351C for $70,000" or once in a while, far, far away (in the states, lol) I'll see a pinto/escort/foxbody. There are your ford choices if you want to run a ford in Stock.

302 2bbl is a way I can build a "known killer combo" and being the first time and putting what I can afford into it, hopefully run the index with it.
If it somehow does a -1.00 locally in U, then I'll run T as I'm not going to take top qual as a newby with a contentious combo.

As far as the rest.....
Yes, if the same issue is true for another combo, it should get the same treatment. Somebody mentioned 318 2bbl, if nobody is building them because they are way too high, drop them to factory and let a bunch of cars get built.

Perhaps if a combo hasn't been built or run for X amount of time, hp should be reverted to stock hp? Kind of like records?

Re: U/SA
 

Totally understand your situation Jim, as well as Jacks, and several others. But what about the others, including MoPar and Chevy combos, that have had their rating reduced by much more, in some cases over 50 HP, below factory HP ratings? And many of those are combinations that have been raced for decades, and often near or at the top of the qualifying sheets? As for Marks question about the 255 Ford being rated higher than the 302, yes, that is a really bad combo, the Classification guide is full of really bad combinations, some really god ones, and as Mark, Paul, & Billy tend to dig up, some really interesting, undiscovered ones.

Re: U/SA
 

I had a '80 255 engine core and tore it apart to see the potential.....smaller valves and ports than a 302 if you can believe it!!! 3.68 bore, just a horrible combo. I was racing in Luskville one time and saw a ranger with a "302" in it. Ran 17 seconds and was wondering what was wrong with it. I looked at it and said, see the open valley, seperate ports on that intake? Thats a 255 not a 302. Buddy was bummed, saw it a month or two later and he had replaced it with a roller 5.0. Forget but was in the 13's I think.

Garbage engine.

Should be rated around 75hp. lol!

Re: U/SA
 

GTS340 :

if paul builds something im sure he will most likely win. however i went to belle rose with no idea i had a chance to win, but i snuck up on bob shaw and Jim Beam took out daran left me and my ky buddy bear tarrance in the final which i got a lil greedy on the converter and pushed the beams:)

i assure you a usa shootout with you and wong will be even more FUN !!! pat joffrion did a fantastic job for us we pitted together had a cookout each bringing food from home (i brought ky country ham and 6 pints of Jim Beam Black) our time runs were seperate after the hemi shootout pat was one of if not THE best track operator ever !!!

hope to get out to see yall soon miss you tall guy !!

captain

Re: U/SA
 

Miss you too my Freind.

Paul Haszlauer

Re: U/SA
 

Jack if you read most threads. Someone mentioned Dan Rehms. Dan is the NHRA gentleman that came to our rescue when the battery was dead on the el camino. Dan came by with that Auto zone hand size box that started it up. Of course you had to let it idle for ever and missed the dial. Vegas baby! "chip and a chair"!

Paul

Re: U/SA
 

+1 come next season in Div 3 when Holbrook is done with my FFFFord. I am creeping up on a roller currently. This winter I need to get it wired and painted after we get engine and trans installed and I am hoping to be at the first D3 race of 2024. Is this U/SA shootout happening? I would be a player as long as its somewhere in the midwest. I think the National Open at Earlville in September would be a good location or the Fall Classic at Indy in October. Just thinking out loud for someone who was pretty young in 2004 when the Belle Rose event took place.Alex Denysenko told me stories about that race when planning this build with him back a few years ago

Re: U/SA
 

IF we have a shootout id think at least a dozen players we had 8 first t one and thats was before several new cars were built. im ok with earlville or fall classic as long as it is an open so no hp hits. i know the buths are building one itll be fast.

i ran the last shootout and pat and i got along great id think someone else will need to take the lead on this as nhra and i are on thin ice i understand pat c hates me i MF him every chance i get.

the guy who has summertons olds wagon your gonna need to drink a lot to replace him.
we made tshirts last time i can do that

lets go

Re: U/SA
 

This is getting interesting..and I do like a challenge.
So, what year was the last one? I seem to remember it was a CIC deal.
I just happen to know a Comp driver, too. Depending on where and when.
Who's going to take the lead here?

Re: U/SA
 

According to DRC Freeman has the Taxi in U this weekend.

Re: U/SA
 

yac, setting it up wont be like l;ast time 2004 no cic. mj pointed out last night that pats race wasnt an open it was the sportsnats therefore already set up for class eliminations. getting a race to accomodate us without any additional cost might not be a slam dunk.
we laddered off two Q runs, pat had bands paid by beer companies each night, we had our cookout and summerton drowning, hell nitro joe was dancing in the bar first night... this one made towing 900 miles well worth it most fun race ive ever attended and i usually find a good time.

we had $1200 added tueton, my calendar sales, fulper all chucked up a few bucks. autometer, k&n and jegs gave $100 gift cards.

life was good until -004 final :)

i guess if enough of you slow guys think its a good idea i can try to take care of it .

Re: U/SA
 

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2004#indextop


Okay then. I'm confused...
Wasn't there a second shootout, when Bob Shaw ran his Seville? He ran in the 12's but didn't end up winning, because it was a CIC race?
Maybe I'm thinking of Beard's deal at Columbus

Re: U/SA
 

after the first year pat ran a FREE no breakout race on friday night. first year shaw won with the TAXI freemans car i made semis in witch doctor fast guys whined so after that he made it a CIC race from then on ... bob went -217 in caddy in final but took a hit ever round to get there and lost

that clear it up ??

capt

Re: U/SA
 

How about a mid 70's Torino 460... red with a white Starsky and Hutch stripe and slot mags would be cool.

Wouldn't fit U unless they switched it's weight as much as new Challengers but the other way. :)

Re: U/SA
 

I've always thought that this would be a good idea especially if a combo has NEVER been competitively run in competition. But maybe not go all of the way back to OEM HP in most cases. There would have to be some common sense involved. Also, if a combo has EVER received a HP hit IN COMPETITION, it wouldn't qualify.

Re: U/SA
 

Okay...Sort of.
So if it happens again, do we want a CIC deal? 1 second under trigger?
Next year @ St Louis would be centrally located at least...Maybe Tyler and co. would accommodate it. With all the racing available, it might be worth it to travel from the outer reaches.
Thoughts , anyone ?

Re: U/SA
 

So...
How is the 230/140hp L6 as a combo?
In a Camaro.
Looks tough... no compression, 1bbl...
How's parts availability?
Curiosity strikes...

Re: U/SA
 

Billy would know better than I would, being that he played with two different cars with that combo for about 20 years. Some parts are easier to find than others. When I ordered a cam 2 years ago, I was told by bullet they had to search far and wide for a cam core for me. Stock connecting rods and crankshaft seems fine for the rpm capability of the motor (lack there of). The intakes and cylinder heads don't exactly fall out of trees, but they are out there. When I rebuilt the engine, it was not a "high dollar" rebuild, but it was all good parts. It's not a bad U/SA car to bracket race, but is more competitive in V/SA. I wouldn't be surprised with enough cash and time it could be a .75-.80 under combo in V. Would be neat to see one built with a third pedal. I was close to doing that, but went the v8 route instead. BTW for those curious, I had a vacuum gauge on the car for a few runs. Pulled about 7-8 in. of vacuum at the top end with that tiny carb. Fun fact the dimensions are the same as one hole of an 850 holley.

Re: U/SA
 

Afew years back I ran a 82 Monte Carlo in U with a 267/ It was factory rated at 115 hp, but Nhra saw fit to bump hp to150 without even seeing what could be done with it.Stated out with15.0 and eventually got it to run fairly consistent 14.40's and 50's. Best I ever ran was 14.20 @90 in killer air at No Problem. This was not a money is no object car but had good parts in car and engine.I felt that hp on engine was too high and that it should have been around 135 or 140 at start , then s ee how it turns out.Sure enjoyed running car and if things played out right would like to run it again but there's no way I feel like it's a 1.30 or higher car.

Re: U/SA
 

It treated me quite well. It would need more HP back to make it a "hitter" in the 21ST Century but it is a good, dependable combo that would probably respond well to a metric or a 4 speed. You can have cams made that will "make" compression (cylinder pressure) but, in the end you're still dealing with a 210 CFM carb..

Re: U/SA
 

Gees 210 is a little guy. I like your line Billy. Might have to call you General Nees. Fun stuff this U/SA class. How is the average doing on the 302 this year?

Paul Haszlauer

Re: U/SA
 

tall paul and billy nees you guys need to meet !!!
we can cook some burgers and make a day of it, maybe a few beers too !!

captain jack has the BEST friends :)

Re: U/SA
 

So the discussion of the 230 led me to a question: Let's assume that an engine with a carburetor that flows twice the cfm of the cubic inches is "well fed". Are there any 4 or 6 cylinder engines that come close to that?

Re: U/SA
 

As far as inline engines, not sure. AMC 6 cylinders had fairly big 2 barrels. I know some Chevy truck inline 6 engines had 2 barrels later on, but they aren't in the guide. There seems to be a decent number of "well fed" v6 combos out there. Maybe not all 2cfm/CID, but there is an 86 Chevy truck 262 v6 with a quadrajet in the guide.

Re: U/SA
 

My Super 6 with the Carter 2 barrel is rated at 280 CFM. With the Holley 2 barrel is rated at 250 CFM.

#5458

Curt Rees

Re: U/SA
 

My 267 V8 is fed by a dualjet flowing only 287 cfm !

Re: U/SA
 

Yes.
1967 Pontiac 230 "Cammer" ...750 Qjet !
Problem is it's gross rated at 215 hp..Just about the same as some power pack 283'S

Re: U/SA
 

Mark, you have been at this game a long time brother. It really just boils down to the age old engineering question of "what is the best air pump actually listed in the classification guide" doesn't it?

If I just had a taste or small percentage of your knowledge back in 93' I would have saved myself a lot of heartache, money and effort and studied that question gone out and bought what I needed.

Instead of taking what I had, taking it bone Stock low mileage w/the A/C Compressor on it, running a 10th under first pass, won a few bracket races with it and saying it has to be pretty easy to go a lot more under if I take it slow and find out what works to make it go faster legally.

That did work for a while as I reached to just over 7-10ths under, then the wheels came off and hit a wall, took it to San Dimas, they classified it as 110HP (instead of 99, and FF/SA orig. Class, but it weighed in well over 25.00 per. So GF/SA it was at 2,755 (raced it at 2,763).
lbs.

Based on today's classification #'s, even that was wrong.

Fast forward to Englishtown, NJ Nat. Event May 1995, and a visit by the Nat. Tech Director (we are not going to tear you down....yet, unless you want to go through a mock 1, since we know for a fact you are almost pure factory (But Bernie please report to the Barn!), so a discussion begins, my question was, why on my meager 99 HP slow sled did someone just pluck out of thin air an 11HP hit to apply to my combo, and his answer was "that does not happen, but let me go look at it!"

30 mins later he came back and said, hmmm, all the data history we have on your sp

Re: U/SA
 

Specific combo, are all your prior passes, nobody but you has ever attempted to race that particular 84' Daytona, single point injection (non-Turbo), 2.2L/135 Ci combo, buy that should tell you something and we can't figure out why, as only 3 passes are close to being reasonably fast, still nowhere near fast enough for an HP factoring hit.

We cannot cure it today, but a letter requesting a review is in order, so lets go look at all the part numbers, so when you request it we have the data correct..

We did, the intake was a superceded mid year change, not on their sheet, a phone call cured that in 5 mins. And the Class Wally was mine that day.

December 1995 sent the letter in, Feb. 6th, 1996 the answer was congrats reduction to 99HP, and the intake number was added.

Sadly, I could no longer afford to do the diet and improves at that point in life anymore. (I spent it all racing carrying 25.00 lbs. X 11=275 lbs too heavy a car at 110HP factored).

Fast forward 25 yrs., I dieted that car down 275 lbs. Legally to 2,455 lbs (Guide says advertised shipping wt is 2,444 (within 10 lbs.), and lo and behold it has been hit again w/6 HP on June 6, 2003.

Best I can tell, though I have asked, not rec. an answer yet (as I know no other fool has still raced that exact combo but me so far), was the hit had to have been triggered by the combining of GF/S, GF/SA, and later FF/S, and FF/SA into EF/S. (I am assuming that, as it was about the time of the culling and FWD class combining decision). Or, it was some engine family decision based dead, but all speculation at this point.

Now classed orig. in DF/S (car cannot legally be lightened to top or lightest in that class, so EF/S it is, and 6HP hit, causes it to Min. Wt (Same 25.00 lbs/HP, 2,795 car and driver, same Index 17.45), I'll race it there for now, and let it gather some real data, then request another review I guess, as it has to be the heaviest EF/S car today I suspect.

Oh, that is 32 lbs. Heavier, than last raced in 1997. (Which is about how much weight I have personally lost just getting older). I have written proof (and a large parts pile, the car never weighed or was ever advertised to weigh less than 2,529 lbs., with a curb wt. of 2,590 (5 speed man. Or Auto- both from the Orig. Dealer Brochure/other sources). Even the TurboZ was 2,600 plus Advertised shipping wt.
So, the secret sauce seems to be, what mfg. provided the best un-truth on the plus wt, and what mfg. added the best to make their model the most efficient air pump?

Re: U/SA
 

I realize this is not all about me, I am older, I am supposed to be wiser, and still doing dumb things...But, this time I am here to learn and have a lot more fun, and time is getting much shorter, so I am attempting to understand as much as I can. (At least it is no longer rotting up against the wall of the garage with years of AZ dust on it!)

90 percent of the time it is just another bracket race (with the index being the top), but the other 10 percent, is the smart decision a person needs to start with I guess, an efficient combo that runs well under.

Re: U/SA
 

Are you guys serious or just home eating gummies ???? If it is not an NHRA race (something like Tyler’s 10,000 race ) would you I’ll only race if there’s a fing “Wally” type of guy >>>> let me know if you want added prize money products we should prolly get started sucking up 🤔😳😎