Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

This is preposterous!!!! Didn't you read what 1320 said!?!?!?:D:D:D:D:D

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

As usual you add nothing of relevance to a thread, you’re a clown!

Now what is preposterous is some here believe that a car can break the 60 foot beams just as quick with the back tires as it can with the front tires!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Obviously 1.26 and 1.17 is a huge difference within sixty feet. Why and what track was the 1.17?

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

No wheelie and Atco

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Back in 2005 we ran TS with Jerry Haas built car. We experimented with wheelie bar settings. We found that the car liked 5" height for wheelie bars, our car was pretty consistent tripping 60' clocks at 1.02 with back tires. We went to 4" on bars the car slowed to 1.04, we went to 6" on bars and car hit the bars too hard and unloaded chassis. We went back to 5" and the car went right back to 1.02 tripping with back tires.

Every car is different, you have to find that sweet spot in every car no matter how fast or slow.

Ed you guys have found the sweet spot with the Firebird. Car leaves flawless every pass, your chevelle was awesome to watch and was consistent. But you had to spend the time with it to find what it wanted, shocks & settings, travel limiters or non, rear suspension settings, etc..

Make 1 small change, keep good notes or read your data acquisition.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I have often wondered about this subject and I always think about Morehead's Camaro because IMHO is the best leaving Super Stock in the sport and is Holt built.

However;

I remember being at the Summernationals at Englishtown when Alderman was driving the Wayne County Daytona and they were bad fast at the time (and that's another story) the car barely lifted the wheels but carried them for over 100' and qualified on the pole. That was one of the most impressive thing I ever seen a race car do.
Now you can say that they were cheaters and you would be right but at the same time those boys knew their stuff.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Doug Battipaglia of Flo Designs who did the heads on the Wayne County car told us they never tested with other Pro Stock teams present. It was all Top Secret as per Chrysler Corp.
Doug didn't do our heads, Bill Ceralli did but Doug provided some speed secrets.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Oh by the way Bill Ceralli is the most talented and skilled machinist ever.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Frank, I have a set of the B-1TS-8 heads done by Doug.. Good heads.
What happened to him.. Lost track of him several years ago

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Nick, this discussion nor my comments are about 2500 lb. tube chassis cars which can't be compared to 3500+lb.stock suspension cars nor 3000+ lb. back halved cars. Their "wheelies" as well their wheelie bars are in play for different reasons.

Thank you and I do. My Chevelle was badazz but a totally different car than my Firebird. That said, in all honesty I set the Firebird up in the first few outings of buying it back in October of 2008, after installing my engine, trans, converter and rear gear, I changed the ride height, front coilover springs, shock settings, travel limiters and wheelie bar height.

This photo is from my 2nd weekend out in the car in October of 2008 after licensing with the car the week before.

https://i.imgur.com/00GbG3Ll.jpg

In 2009 I swapped out the front shocks to Afco's bnc shocks and those same shocks are in place today. From then until the winter of 2022, when the front and rear suspensions were rebuilt as a part of updating and freshening this car from front to rear and top to bottom

https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...t=86419&page=4

the car has been run with the same suspension settings other than adjusting the front shock extension on race day. The car as I run it today is about 200 lbs. heavier than when I bought 16 years ago and has far more power under the hood than when it was raced in Super Stock or when I bracket raced it footbraking.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Most of the fast ones were a foot and a half off the ground. A lot different than prior years.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Frank when did you last speak to Bill, it’s been several years since I have spoken to him. Back in the 90s and into the early 2000s Bill and I were competitors as well friendly, he joined our Saturday night dinner after racing often.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Ed how much clearance do you have from carb to hood with that setup?

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Minimal. Basically the height of the Intensity Racing Products carb screen, about 1” to the top of the carb’s main body. That said, the carb gets air off the windshield and the nostrils at the front of the hood.

https://i.imgur.com/icw0sAil.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QYy3GBVl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MwCyDKrl.jpg

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Think you could be loosing a little cfm that close to the hood? Have you experimented with a different hood for just a tad more clearance? Just wondering.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I could be. The carb is a custom deal that flows over 1350cfm. As to hoods, I considered it when the car was updated nearly 2 years ago because I wanted to put a taller intake manifold and dominator carb on so I bought 2 hoods, one a Joe Van O pin on cowl hood

https://i.imgur.com/p447sLKl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FUIzWyQl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Nvz4tYkl.jpg


the other a VFN hinged cowl hood which I hated and didn't work with our carb location

https://i.imgur.com/d2h87lEl.jpg


The Joe Van O hood looked good but a pin on hood doesn't work for how we race. I love the look of relatively quick/fast cars with an OEM flat hood just like my former Chevelle had. I returned the hinged hood but still have the Joe Van O hood which took 5 months to get and is for sale.

https://i.imgur.com/kVYCDvYl.jpg

FYI, the intake manifold on my engine has been with me since 2007

https://i.imgur.com/HvAms6ol.jpg

first installed on the Chevelle’s last engine. It is fully ported, runners extended and the carb pad cut down, done by BCHS for hood clearance and it’s been on every engine in the firebird.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

My perspective is that you need to get all the weight on the rear tire. Since we run performance based classes, we are trying to use ALL the power. On marginal tracks, you can have a hard time if the front end is tied down too much without some kind of power management.

From experience, moderate wheelies don't slow you down at all. I feel that is because aero is not a factor. A monster wheelie will absolutely burn a bunch of ET...

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

GUMP...knows!

Aero aside, if you get to the 60 foot clocks slower and you WILL, breaking the beam with any part of the car behind the front tires no mind the back tires, you WILL run a slower ET!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I do what I can!! LMAO!!

I've driven, owned, or worked on just about everything under the sun. As mentioned, several times in this thread, EVERY combination likes what it likes. Our two stockers are prime examples, the Nova likes a small wheelie, the wagon is faster with a bigger wheelie. There is no hard and fast rule. Testing and more testing will always tell the truth.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

you're clueless!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I agree 100%, I remember the late Ed Wright said his Firebird needed to do a wheelie to run well. Despite his representations Ed was one of the sharper knives in the drawer and I am sure that was correct for his car.

However it is apparently not true for every car.

I continue to miss Ed.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Doug passed away February 6, 2019.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Bill and I last spoke about two years ago but my good friend and former racing partner Jimmy Lovallo spoke to Bill within the past year.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

IMHO the sixty foot ET and trap MPH are the measure of your race car.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Agree, NOT wheelie height and my former Chevelle as well my Firebird are bench marks with 1.28 @ 3880 lbs. and 1.17 @ 3150 lbs. respectively and both launched off the footbrake!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I agree to a point but imo the 60-330 is just as important. You can dead hook and get a crazy low 60 but the engine and car are not working together and your et will reflect that.

Again, my opinion only, but a short interval from 60 to the next clock point has to be there to enable a good run assuming you don't get loose downtrack.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

60 foot is EVERYTHING as it relates to ETs! What you lose or gain in 60 foot directly relates to the ET in the n/a S/SS type cars being discussed here.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

What some people are having a hard time grasping, is if you hit the 60 foot light with your back wheel. Then that time is really for 60 foot plus your wheelbase.


Stan

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

This is one of the best threads I've ever seen here. I'm seeing other racers experiences and it's making me think.

I'm beginning to think the disconnect from my original post is due to the fact that I worked almost solely on 4 link stick cars. And that the rules class cars have to run under just won't allow the important parts to be tuned to top performance.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been giving a lot of thought to the people who say a big wheelstand flashes the converter better. My gut feeling is that's because the slicks are loaded more and the traction loads the converter more.

You could do the same thing and keep the nose close to the ground and use the torque to move the car forward with a four link. I'm thinking that your classes simply don't have the ability to add that extra traction other than standing the car up. Again, I'd love to find I'm on the wrong track here so please speak up if you disagree.

I ran into this while working with Steve Johnson. I looked at his graphs and saw immediately where things could be improved in a major way. But the problem was that the clutches PSBs had available at the time were not able to do the adjustment that was needed.

In short, the people who are saying different vehicles need different things have helped me get a grip and I thank every one of them.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

you're welcome

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

That does depend. Over 10 years ago I was doing a simulation of a PSB with some help from George Bryce. I was able to get everything almost dead on. I ask George about the fact that I ran out of RPM before the finish line. He said he did too, but he gave up some MPH because it ran a lower ET.


Stan

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

In a low HP combo the wheelie is similar to wheel speed. It helps get the engine to its max power quicker. The higher HP and bigger Cu Inch combos might be quicker by keeping the front end down. The car will be more consistent with the wheels up and no spin/wheel speed. Stock and super stock cars are set up to dead hook. Most are on radials.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

My theory is: Race cars that have quicker ets doing monster wheelies is because, when the car begins to come down it essentially "throws" the car forward. This applies to cars with high ground clearance that pitch and rotate and relatively moderate power.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Your theory is malarkey

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Ya know Dan, it's a funny thing that you put it that way. In a Stocker that can use a Powerglide or a 3-speed, with the 'glide the 60' times are almost irrelevant. They're almost a residual number. The car needs to be set-up to run it's best E.T. and whatever the 60' time is, it is. One of the "funniest" things ever said to me about "tuning" a car was by the late Jim Beattie; "Nees, is there somebody standing on the 60' clock handing out $100 bills? Then don't worry about it".
Now a 3-speed Stocker is a totally different animal. From my experience, what ever you can do to get a 3-speed car to the 330' clock faster will translate to better E.T.s all the way down the track.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Great thread! Do these theories/opinions/physics also apply the same to a STICK car?

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

again, it all starts and ends with 60 foot and yes, I have run both a powerglide and a turbo400 in the same car!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

We have had a lot of good info passed around in this thread...
This thread brought back an old memory from when Lee Shepherd was racing the Shepherd/Morrison Modified Production Chevy 11 wagon at my track in Whitehouse Texas. This is back before reaction times and we only had 60' and 1/4 mile times. I ask him if the 60' was the most important part of the race track. His answer was NO...
He then said "The First Inch" is most important
Think about it!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

He was wrong!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

How dare you blaspheme Lee Shepherd...
Them there is fightin' words!...