Re: index lowering
 

For me this is a great idea, I have spent 10,000s of dollars and over built my combo only to get HP if I go too fast. Should have just built it to go 5 under and then bracket race it in super stock. Instead of worrying about the new blood coming in maybe think about the majority, which is the old blood that?s just about had enough with this punish the hard working performance guys. I understand both sides, but it?s definitely not fun anymore if you enjoy the performance side of class racing.

Re: index lowering
 

I'd say just leave the indexes alone.I've considered going Super Stock and two more tenths off of those indexes would put a total end to that idea in bad air.
As far as the AHFS,I'd say just get rid of it with no penalties for going fast.Go three seconds under if you want to.If the AHFS wasn't used at the
U.S.Nationals,why use it anywhere?

Re: index lowering
 

I say leave it alone for a couple of years at least. It's getting hard to keep up with the constant changes.

Re: index lowering
 

Enjoy your ego massage!

Re: index lowering
 

I totally agree with this. I like watching someone run a mile under the index just as much as the next guy. I also have no problem if I get hooked in heads up and get out run by the guy next to me. That?s on me and my program to get faster. When I was actively racing the stocker, I had a few heads up races,I got my *** busted, took my licks and went home. It?s not the end of the world


Maybe get rid of the whole damn AFHS system and just raise the review? trigger?. At the end of the year, have the stock and superstock committee guys review any runs or combos that are a problem.

Re: index lowering
 

You have a good day Billy!

Re: index lowering
 

I?d be for the change if there were 1/8 mile index triggers for afhs. Personally I?d rather see personal index similar to comp.

Re: index lowering
 

they're not which is why I stated

This is going to die, the only question that remains is when. My guess in 10-15 years you'll have less than half the class racers you do today. What little new blood interested in drag racing, are going bracket racing where at least they have a chance of winning money that will allow them to be more competitive. Further they don't have to deal with NHRA's rules nor take a week off of work to compete at a 3 day event where you spend most of that time doing no racing.

Re: index lowering
 

Gave this a ton of thought and spoke with some great racers.
If it “ Makes Racing Great Again” I’m all for it.

Asking NHRA staff to change the AHFS is a stretch being under staffed.
��*♂️

Re: index lowering
 

I see both sides to this issue as well. My program is just the opposite of yours. My car and engine are built for consistency and reliability. It?s much easier to de tune than it is to pick up. Costs nothing to de tune and run 50-75 under. I watch what you do and I see that you are more than capable of qualifying at the top of the sheet but sometimes elect to slow to more of a mid pack pace. Personally I would like to see the index?s stay as they are. I don?t see how lowering the index?s will enhance our program. The Fast cars got a gift when they changed the instant trigger to 1.30 under. I realize I am probably not one of the majority. I am for sure one of the old blood guys. I have been racing the same car for over 45 years. I totally respect your viewpoint.
Lowering the indexes will only result in lower car counts at the division level. Many tracks are electing not to host division races and or closing down due to cost issues or other preferences in event types to keep the gates open. We lost two of our tracks this year in D2. Reynolds and Galot are not participating in our schedule here this year. Both are a huge loss. Lower car counts won?t help.

Re: index lowering
 

Imagine getting a service call to fix the Ice Cream machine at McDonalds..

You show up, turn up the heat on the Coffee Maker while walking right past the broken Ice Cream machine..


If the fast guys are lobbying to NhRa to go faster without penalty then move the trigger and be done with it. The slower, low budget guys aren?t going to give a 💩.

Re: index lowering
 

This topic is for people who actually race Stock/Superstock and are impacted by the proposed index changes. It is not intended for a small troll that has a .90 car that sits in the garage

Re: index lowering
 

I now a lot of racers who work hard on their combos.they also spend a lot of money to go fast. But there is a large amount of racers who buy enhanced cylinder heads and enhanced intake manifolds which are illegal, but since NHRA mostly got rid of tech inspections,they do what they want. Don't lower indexes to please these people.It will drive the low buck racers out.If they want to go fast with little penalty go to comp.

Re: index lowering
 

I get your point Herbie, I have the favorable LT1 SS car that it would be nice to be able to turn it loose but on the other side my Stocker with the 350 TPI flattop is not a player anymore because some ding dongs decided they wanted to show it off. I'd be all for lowering the indexes if I can have my 18 HP back on the Stocker lol

Re: index lowering
 

One thing that definitely needs lowered with the AHFS is the .65 under run to count towards the engine average. Right now almost half of the cars out there don?t make a run that counts. If you keep it at .65, that?s like raising it to .85. I suggested it be returned to .35 under.

Re: index lowering
 

Great reply Sam! More of these racers need your attitude!!!

Re: index lowering
 

Raise the indexes three tenths for the slower cars, and lower the index three tenth for the faster ones. Set the trigger at two seconds and have at it.

or

Have everybody go to the barn.

Re: index lowering
 

Wouldn`t it be great, if before any combination got a HP hit, that the person that caused the hit, was torn down to ensure that his car was 100% legal? An across the board lowering of all the indexes would effect some combinations much more than others, not every combination is allowed to benefit from the use of "approved" aftermarket aluminum cylinder heads, aftermarket carbs, optional camshafts etc. Nor do other "enhancements" help all combinations the same, roller rocker arms, wheelie bars, lightweight racing seats, fuel cells etc, don`t help much if you are running some non mainstream low RPM, 2 barrel engine with a crappy intake manifold and cylinder heads. Some combos, like 396s, can build a "legal" Stocker engine, and not use virtually a single OE factory installed GM part in the engine. Many others can not use anything that was not used on the combination when it rolled of the assembly line. It would be nice if there was still a little bit of "stock" in Stock Eliminator.

Re: index lowering
 

Leave the index's alone NHRA needs to let the fast cars go fast without penalties raise the ATFS to at least 130-140 because the fast cars and deep pockets are always going to be in racing and with the non-existence of tear downs at races it's not fair to the guys that what to go race and have fun in class racing. I'm not bad mouthing any one in stock but let the guys that don't what to spend every dime they have or don't have. And yes you can work on your combination and pick up your car no doubt about it. But going really fast costs lots of money!

Re: index lowering
 

My plan is to go Super Stock racing next year. It seems to me that its easier to slow a car down than it is to speed it up. That being said i whish i had that problem when i was racing my Fairlane. We did build a 352 CJ car and slowing it down was a breeze. I think if you take a poll the majority of the racers would say leave the index*s alone. I do agree with lowering the number that counts toward the average.

Re: index lowering
 

I think there are two ways of looking at this issue. On one hand, yes there are combos that have picked up quite a bit since the last time the rules were changed, whether this be due to aftermarket parts, relaxed tech, etc. However, not all combos really "recovered" in a way since the last index change because they either don't get any aftermarket parts, or they don't benefit from what is the "norm" as far as tech goes nowadays. I personally am not a "player" indexically by any means, mainly limited by funding, but if the indexes were to change, I'm going to keep racing, but I can't say the same for others in a similar situation. To comment on the lack of young stock/ super stock racers, if I'm being honest, if I hadn't been loaned a car for me to put my own drivetrain in, I probably would have just put a C4 in my mustang, and gone bracket racing instead.(Which I've considered doing just for more seat time). I've had conversations with quite a few racers my age, and the consensus is always the same. They can't find the incentive to run stock when the entry fee is more than the typical entry for a 10k bracket race. Unless you're born into a wealthy racing family, or are given the opportunity to drive someone else's "fast" stock/super stock car, lowering the indexes is just going to push what little "new blood" considering building a car away. IMHO, if the indexes were to be lowered, I think NHRA should consider leaving the FWD indexes alone. I find it funny how back in "the day", you were given horsepower arbitrarily if you went fast, but racers just shrugged their shoulders and kept on racing when it happened. Now, everyone complains how much money they have in their engines, and its offensive to think the really fast combos deserve HP. "I've spent tens of thousands on my engine, and have to slow it down so I don't get horsepower, and it's NHRA's fault for not catering to guys like me" Sounds like a story CNN would report.

Re: index lowering
 

I debated very long about if I was going to respond to this thread or others. I will state as a "young blood" in the sport, I have been racing for 3-4 years and 30 years old. I have my own opinions about this situation and as such decided to share with the group my email response to our Div rep I sent.

As a Super Stock racer, I feel my opinion and analysis are most relevant to that category. Therefore, I will leave the discussion of Stock to my fellow racers.

Regarding Super Stock, this is a very tough question and decision for the NHRA officials to determine. I must personally say I see both sides of the coin regarding the rationale to lower the indexes to serve the few who have spent countless dollars and hours working on their combination and would enjoy being able to run flat out. However, I also appreciate the other side of the coin where certain combinations or people are not far enough under the index to warrant any form of restrictions on their passes. I also respect and appreciate that this is a performance-based class, which should carry a large discussion in terms of input. With all that said, I am not in favor of lowering the indexes at this time based on the following points:


Lack of Tech by NHRA: This lack of tech has allowed some, but not all, the ability to change their performance in an unfavorable way compared to others. As such, lowering the indexes will likely only further encourage the lack of honesty and integrity within our sport among racers who do not desire to be the #1 qualifier at Indy, where the only real teardowns occur. As such, people will be more tempted to gain additional performance enhancements to meet the new lower index requirements.

Flaws in the AFHS System: The system only evaluates runs between a certain range and does not fully account for outliers (weather conditions, individuals that are higher than 10% variability of the same combinations, or the lower qualifying personnel that are running said engines outright). In today?s data analytics world and with the conjunction of AI, simpler regression models could be easily established to account for said variables to build a more robust system.

Performance Data Analysis: Looking at the average under-index runs for 2024 in Super Stock, granted I am missing a few events and run logs, but out of my 8,224 runs established in 2024 for NHRA Super Stock, I have removed outliers of cars outside of 2 seconds under the index for reporting issues and any run that is over the index for a total count of 7,120 runs counting towards the data analytics. The average for all the runs was -0.635, which is well below the NHRA golden standard of -0.85. Therefore, a vast majority of the runs are below the established threshold for the AFHS system and NHRA?s long-standing standard. In fact, there were 1,284 total runs that were -0.850 or more under the index, or 18% of all the runs completed in NHRA Super Stock logged. Of these 7,120 runs logged, there were 592 unique individual NHRA racers that competed to complete this list. 212 racers completed at least a single pass that was -0.850 or further under the index, and only 81 racers completed at least a single pass that was -1.00 or more under the index. This correlates to 15% of the racing community having completed at least a -1.00 second or under pass. Based on this data, I would say the bell curve is appropriate for a performance chart in terms of a smaller percentage of personnel being in the ?elite? under the index performance. The challenge I would have for NHRA is to evaluate the AFHS system in terms of revamping to properly address certain engine combinations and the evaluation of individual personnel against the standard margins for said engine combinations. Simple outlier tests and statistical analysis of 3 standard deviations or nelson rules could be utilized to determine if an individual is well outperforming the average for said combination. This would be a great starting point in reimplementing the teardown and tech of NHRA as opposed to who is the #1 qualifier at Indy. Reference the histogram chart attached for the detailed breakdown of runs within x range of under the index.

Impact on Sport and Revenue: The final point is related to the status of our sport and competition. It should never be confused or twisted that NHRA is a business first, and therefore one of the most important points is related to revenue. In this specific case, NHRA would be eliminating some of the racers that are not able to qualify with the adjustment of indexes. Out of the 7,120 runs, there were 167 unique racers that qualified at -0.200 to 0.000 under the index during some form of qualifying and eliminations. I do note that some of these runs could easily be outliers for people?s individual averages but do show a higher number of unique racers have passes below the threshold than that of the 1-second club, which this rule change is really tailored towards. Eliminating racers from a class hurts revenue that is already established with the divisional and national events that are already scheduled. The economy has been tough on a lot of individuals, and with the lower lack of additional fun money funds for the average NHRA sportsman racer, I believe it is important for the survival of our sport to continue to encourage and find alternative ways to grow with the difficulties of today. One area of growth within the sportsman ranks is to continue to allow budget building of racer cars that are obtainable for all individuals. COPO, Drag Paks, and Cobra Jets are not obtainable for the average weekend warrior NHRA sportsman racer, but I do understand the corporate engagement they drive. This continued engagement will help grow or at least maintain the numbers of current events, which have seen a decline over the last few years, as opposed to booting people out the door. Every dollar counts from all racers, regardless of the class or way they got to the event.

Re: index lowering
 

Great stuff Avery!

Re: index lowering
 

.I second that.

I have thought that there should be a two tier system.
Divisonals stay as the are today
National Events are ALL run as Indy currently is. No HP . Open entry, only the top Qualifers make it. Must enter National race two weeks before. If you can not make a race for any reason, no refunds.
National Events entrys would be self policing , if your fast you may get in, if your not why would you go? You have Divisonals to to race at until you are..

Just my 2 cents

Steve Teeter Stk/SS 620

Re: index lowering
 

If we really want to see how fast a combination will go, reinstate Class Winners as automatically included in the field of 128 at Indy. No combo class but if your the only one in your class you have to run the National Index or quicker to be in the eliminations. The great part of this if you can outdrive the fast car and be the class winner your in. If there are 64 class winners the fastest non class winner qualifier would be placed on the sheet as number 65 and so on until #128. I believe it will bring back the building of odd rods to win Class and to make the show.
I know it?s old school but so is the Constitution and it still works.

Re: index lowering
 

I havent heard anyone mention personal indexes

Re: index lowering
 

Doug,

Was the last "Index Change" that you are referring to perchance performed in June 2003 by any chance? (As my particular combo was hit w/ 6 HP on that date and no one will take the time or point out why, or who caused it and only answer with " It is a moot subject." And I knowfor a fact that I am the only idiot in history to ever compete with this particular exact slowest combo and while close twice (Winternats 1995 and World Finals 2023), and both at Pomona, CA ran close but never exceeded-.800 under index), all other passes were well below that, some a lot slower at elevation and in bad corrected (D.A.) at altitude tracks. Historically only 6 passes ever anywhere up in the mid range between -.500/-.799 and all at that single track (and always on a crisp cold morning in November or February) Also was a Calif. Smog Car and just flat knows when it goes home (MAP Sensor whisperer?)...and it has historically raced at 32 tracks across the country N.W to N.E., S.W. to S.E. from 1993 to 97 & just 3 this time around so far 2023-24... nowhere near those numbers anywhere else. An issue that soon, I hope to be rectified.

If it was done then willy nilly like this proposal on a whim, suggestion and lobbying effort of some category participants and a simple poll/ committee vote (as is being suggested it appear currently), and not on "actual historical performance-based data of each individual Car/Engine Combo", it explains a whole freaking lot to me.

And it would be no wonder to me why nobody officially wants to answer my repeated questions because they also know I have an HP Reduction letter granted back to 99HP from 110 Feb 1996. I am currently 99 Factory/105 NHRA Factored. (Others in the same class are 100-500 lbs and more less in minimum wt., and they fly too at Indy and elsewhere). We are not talking minute differences here...the struggle is very real and getting quite a bit more expensive.

Re: index lowering
 

Great job on the data Avery, it really shows how we as a collective group can askew the data in performance when a certain percentage try to get their average below .850 so a HP hit does not come our way. When you take a look at INDY qualifying the last 2 years it would be cool to see how that data aligns with yearly AHFS data. Indy data to me would be the real performance data since the AHFS is turned off. I really believe nothing is coming from all of this, just continue to slow those cars down for the averages is the new game.

Re: index lowering
 

Hey Herbie shoot me a message on what exactly you want to see and I will be happy to show for the group. My biggest point ever is we live in a data world and should make data driven decisions.

Re: index lowering
 

If they do decide to lower the indexes, I feel that they should consider not making any upward HP adjustments at the end of the year.

Re: index lowering
 

Herbie, I'm not trying to start an argument here. You can go as fast as you want and if you're that proud of your (and your engine builders) accomplishments then you should. Just be prepared for the consequences.
Ya know, back in the "good-old-days" if you won a race and ran faster than the National Record in the final then you were the new National Record Holder and tore down. Maybe that's the way that it should be.

Larry, if Indy went back to "Class winners and fastest Qualifiers" I'd be back at Indy with something to make people's heads explode.

Re: index lowering
 

Daren, WHY? It doesn't matter where the index is if a combo needs to receive HP!

Re: index lowering
 

I don't have a dog in the hunt this year. I just think it would be a hard hit to get HP this year knowing that you wouldn't have gotten it with an index adjustment the following year.

Re: index lowering
 

But the combo DID get a hit where the index is right now! Where the index WILL BE or for that matter where the rules will be next year is not relevant.

Re: index lowering
 

It makes no difference to me at all. I just hate the constant changes.

Re: index lowering
 

Well on THAT we can both agree!

I often wonder what the Racers would think if we went back to the pre-AHFS days when a Tech Official just walked up to you at a race and told you that you just got 10 HP(!) and now you have to run this class and weigh this much!

Re: index lowering
 

It made complicated eliminator even
More complicated?

Re: index lowering
 

Along the lines of data, I have always wondered what the number of heads up runs is a year, in STK and SS. Compared the total number of eliminations runs. Div and Nat events.

How many events this year were full fields that had DNQ's? Indy, BG and the Columbus Sportsnationals, or did I screw that up?

Re: index lowering
 

?Work on your combo? - you mean write a check to an engine builder for 30-40k for a fast stocker engine that makes 500-600hp. There are alot of smart business men on this forum, at a certain point , this is a dumb proposition? But also , shut up with the work on your combo stuff. Unless you built your car and engine from the ground up - you wrote a check and congrats but that doesn?t entitle you to look down on others

?This is a performance based class? - you are correct , but in stock eliminator we?re basically allowed a valve job, so why do heads cost between 10-12k ?? It?s turned into who can hide their work the best aka spend the most money, it?s not a performance based class any longer , it?s a check book class

I understand the people that have money want to do what they want to do and you spent the money. But what?s the point if the class dwindled down ? If there was actual tech officials to regulate these classes I?d say it?s a performance based class still, but NHRA has squeezed that out.

How about we start the phrase ?work on your driving?. If you want to go fast to be #1 qualifier (to make that $200 check lmao) and to win heads up runs , that?s your right - but don?t crush the class and sport because you want all the bye runs 🤷🏻*♂️

Re: index lowering
 

Note my data is not absolute and missing some runs and events. But should give a good overall perspective on the percentage of runs. In my data I have the following information.

Total Class and Elimination Runs: 4179 runs
Total Elimination Runs: 3732 runs
Total Class Runs: 447 Runs
Total Heads Up Eliminations: 58 Runs or 29 Heads Up Matches

Not a lot of you think about it. I am sure there are people out there with better data than I but this gives a good perspective for super stock.