Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I'd rather have a guy that's late than one who uses a liberal interpertation of the rules,especially if he is in the same class as me.Nice try blowing off the fact you got vacation time to "work on your car.

Ed F.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Yep Charlie you right, I gave you a round that time for sure (I looked it up in my log). You know I can live with this new rule, if it isn't changed, it still is a bad rule. What I don't understand is why you can't seem to be able to live with FWD cars? Our classes are here to stay, we have already had our cut. Will you be able to live with what enhancements are coming for you? One pound classes? Combining sticks and autos? FWD is here to stay, get over it! Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

You missed the point. I said "what about the guy who travels 1200 miles and nobody else shows up in his class" ?
If that guy runs 1.5 under or .51 under it's a moot point, if nobody shows up in his class, he's the class winner. Period. And for that, he should have the honor of being allowed to race Indy.
Indy has more presitge then any other race in NHRA. It has always been run like this. And I think Chip "The Legend" hit the nail right on the head. Those that can check book there way to a 1.00+ under still can't be assured they are a class winner so this is tere solution.
And just so you know, I raced a A/FS (that's front wheel drive, stick) that ran as quick as 1.70 under. I think that would have been close to #1 qualifier in Indy the years I raced that car. My D/S Stocker was good for as much as 1.30 under. I'm sure that would be a top ten at the least. And now I have a SS/H that's run only .78 under. So I've seen both ends of the spectrum and it doesn't change my opinion one bit.
One other thing, and maybe somebody that knows can help. I believe in D/S there was only one entrant in Indy last year. So looking at a non-FWD car, if this lone D/S car didn't run fast enough to qualify under the new rules then he also is penalized and sent home. I think if you take a look at all the classes you'll find numerous lone entries at Indy for many years back. I'd bet many are stick cars.
Without a doubt, this new policy will create a field of Camaro's (or whatever the toy is in town). This is NOT good for our class!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Try this on for size.
Say there is 12 cars in a class and a .75 under car with a bye, some luck and exceptional driving wins the class.
Guess what, with the new format he will be handed a ticket home instead of a place on the ladder!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jeff and Bill, What Charlie is saying is the rule should only be enforced on FWD cars not RWD. That way when he races again with a LEGAL engine and the car only goes .80 under he will still be alowed in. Read his post. I mean everyone know those pesky cars are the route of all evil. Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

You guys have got it all wrong when it came to how the 128 car Stock and S/S fields at Indy use to work.

Qualifying was to see who got in the empty spots AFTER Class Winners were seated. The rule then changed making it necessary for Class Winners to run at least .5 under the index (unless there were two or more cars racing in your class) to be automatically seated in the field. Those who did not win their class were merely fill-ins for the rest of the 128 car field based off of their qualifying times. Class Winners were not bumped in. Class Winners were seated and it was the quickest of the qualifiers who lost in class eliminations who were bumped in. If you were not qualified quick enough after losing class, you were the one who went home.

Looks like all that has changed.

Travis


(Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Good post, Travis. The class winners were not the bump-ins, the non class winners were.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

First off, unfortunately I do not race NHRA S/SS classes. I am someone that has been a fan and follower of "stocker" racing since the early 60's. Growing up in central Kentucky, door cars have always been my following. We just didn't have many dragsters and funny cars to follow in our area. But the stockers (409s,427s,413s,421s etc) were great excitment. I always dreamed of being able to race Stock or Super Stock at the US Nationals. As years pasted and choices were made, I never seemed to get to that point. Being a class "Winner" at the US Nationals was a very special honor. I can remember being at Beech Bend after Dickie Ogles won his class with the Stagecoach and the respect everyone had for them. I can see both sides of this and really don't have an answer. Travis has an excellent point, how it all started. If I had a car that would run 1.0 under and lost in class and didn't get into the field because of a Class Winner that was .51 under, I would be upset. If I had a .51 under car and was able to win a class by out driving a faster car and won and didn't get in I would be upset too. One point I do see hear is that if the S/SS guys don't stick together, you'll be on the out side looking in. I just returned from a race at Route 66 yesterday that cost me $1500. to attend and when looking on the internet coverage, the lower class got very little mention or pics. All organizations cater to the "big boys" and we are at their whim. Mark Y. I hope I didn't say anything to get me kicked off here. Just ramblings of an old guy that loves stocker racing.
Jim Netherland
2007 NMCA Nostalgia Super Stock World Champion
B/NSS 67 Buick GS 400

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Used to be Bob!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Had they pulled that illegal piston, would they have found it was too light? Gas ports? Ring lands to thin? I always have to wonder if a guy would take the effort to cheat .020" on one part, why would he stop there? I mean, once the piston is illegal, why stop on one area? And if .020" doesn't matter, why would you do it? You have to special order pistons that are not to the rules, don't you? Did the manufacturer place their stamp on the top or did you take care of that issue?
And if FWD was incorporated as a regular stock class, would that mean some ofthese fast FWD cars would be in your O/SA class? Is that the issue?

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Guys, I think Charlie Bob is bored to death on the farm and is wanting to see how much **** he can stir up. He is waiting on his new West Virginia built bullet that is not only legal but will go as fast as he wants too. Yes I know he got bounced from Indy last year but just how many cars that did qualify were really legal? I have stood in the barn on many occasions and some of the **** that got through tech was really funny. The tech men's hands are tied. If they tell somebody that they are out, that person runs to the tower and gets put right back in. What the hell good is that?
The simple solution is to let it be an ALL RUN field just like S/C & SG. It would be one extra round for Stock&Super Stock but it would give everybody that wants to go Indy a chance at the eliminator. But that is too simple and too much like right. If you have enough grading points and want to spend the money to go, you should be allowed to race no matter what. WOW, what a novel concept.
I just put on my 3-2A1 jacket and 2 pair of jeans so flame away.
NHRA shoud let everyone in to make up for some of the PFP car counts they have had this year. The last I looked there are 29 cars in SS next weekend in Somoma.
There are a lot of people that have seen the same stuff as me in the barn, so be careful who you are that start throwing rocks at me. My old Monte Carlo was slow but the car would go through tech anywhere. How many of you can say that?



Mike Galuk
JOE COOL RACING

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Mike,

I totally agree with you on the all run eliminator. We all pay out hard earned money to get to the event. Everyone should get a chance in eliminator..

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I would like to see how many guys at Indy could pass a Marty Barrett teardown? For you young guys out there just one of us oldtimers(55 or older) how tuff he was. I don't think it would be a 128 car field. Maybe 64(LOL) Any Senior citizens out there care to comment.

Mike Galuk
JOE COOL RACING

P.S. I mean no disrespect to Travis or any of the other tech men who bust their asses to do it the right way, but sometimes find their hands tied.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Steve,

Qualifing would still determine the first round pairings and the ladder in later rounds. Just as it does now at all of the other national and divisionsl races. Indy is the only race on the tour that allows more than 128 entries.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I don't doubt that Stock and Super Stock racers pick which races they are going to attend based upon whether class is contested there or not. I know if I raced in these categories, those would be the races at the top of my list.

What I have a hard time believing is that people would choose to go to a race SPECIFICALLY because class is contested there, with no regard to final eliminations whatsoever.

If that's the case, then I stand corrected, and shows one more reason why this .90 racer is ignorant when it comes to racing in these classes.

I personally like the class elimination setup, and don't think it should have been changed for reasons I mentioned earlier. And I could be wrong, but with the advent of the top 128 car qualifying format, I'm sure you'll lose out on more entries, as I still can't believe that in today's economy that anybody would travel to Indy ONLY to compete in class, knowing full well they have NO shot at competing in final eliminations (i.e. they know they might be able to win class, but also know they can't run quick enough under the index to be a top 128 qualifier).

For those of you that compete in these classes and support the class system, I hope you can get it changed back to the way it was.

Signed,

A .90 Racer & Stock & Super Stock Fan

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Mike Galuk.....The answer to your question on how many could pass a Marty Barrett tech today is ZERO. When I first went to work for NHRA....YES..Nhra back in 1974 Marty and Greg X. were the ones who took me under their wings and tought me a lot about tech.(cam checks w/duration and overlap, valve spring pressures, etc.). Travis is one of the last of a dying breed and just as good but as you said. The ASSociations tie their hands most of the time.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jason Oldfield,
Yes a lot of people used to go to National events ESPECIALLY that had Class. I remember towing all the way to Brainerd MINN to race Knowing we had class. The field was small but when class was dropped at that event the numbers fell to about 40 SS cars. I think 74 was the number when Class was run.
At one time our class GT/AA had a good group at Gainesville, Richmond Virginia, Topeka, Memphis and Indy. Now the numbers are picking up again in this class.
Now Some feel with so few cars admitted to a nationals other than Indy and the low numbers per class let in it takes the fun out of that attraction to be there.
Thanks Dick BUtler

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

X-Tech Man, thank you for the response. I'm not the only one who remembers the way it used to be.(LOL) Those guys could be tuff and you didn't give them any guff or your *** would be on the trailer faster than you could say "OUTA HERE, BUD"

Mike Galuk
JOE COOL RACING

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Steve it is just another race

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Steve, we will continue this discussion Fri @ Columbus. I'll be there to help the Fulkster. See ya soon, Mike

Mike Galuk
JOE COOL RACING

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I had the "pleasure":( of being checked by Greg and Marty Barrett.... at Indy in 1966. The H/SA Class winner was found ilegal for his camshaft and we were thrown out as the R/UP for the exact same thing. The cam we had was from Chevrolet and was a replacement but in NHRA'S eyes illegal as it was not accepted yet.....a few weeks later it was and we received a letter from Farmer Dismuke about it. Greg and Marty argued about what carburetors were legal for our car that night....I never forgot that arguement as Marty was more on our side than Greg and we were from Div. 1. I thought those two were going to have a friggen fist fight over it!!! Greg was very tough and we sufferd a few times from his toughness........ and eventually we passed one of his checks and set the H/S national record! and yes I am over 55......

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Hey X-tech man, anything that I race would pass a "Marty Barrett" teardown! Oh BTW, a few years ago one of my motors was tossed after winning class at Indy with the reason being "Your heads are too stock ". I was then asked if I knew what a Bowl Hog was and told what had to be removed so that my heads looked like all of the other heads. No I'm not naming names but that is the Gospel truth! I didn't whine and cry and call my lawyer either I just bent over and took it like a man.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

If you had Greg and Marty and more like them today Stock eliminator would be a "heck" of a lot cheaper.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Hey Billy Thats sounds like when the tossed me for to little compression.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Bill I would have been happy to "bowl hog" that head for you....I should have done my LT-1 heads too and come to think of it my heads on my Nova could have used a little "groinking" as we used to call it when we did a set of heads at Crow's for oversized valves......Not stockers of course!!! I agree if Marty and Greg were doing Tech...Stock would be cheaper and there wouldn't be any 10 second low compression 350's or 305's either running near that fast.....give me a break.....

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

To say the the US NATIONALS (Nvm the other corporate names NHRA has whored upon it recently) is "just Another Race" is your opinion which I respect. I also have one to share.

I guess going to Indy for you is like saying that:

- Mt. Everest is "just another hill"
- The Grand Canyon is "just another ditch"
- The Stanely Cup Playoffs are "just another pond hockey game"
- and...Traci Lords was "just another aspiring teen actress".

The original concept of the NHRA was to remove street racing on a national level (thus the Safety Safari) and set a national standard SO YOU could race against other cars locally heads up or with a handicap system. You also had the chance to compare yourself against similar combinations nationally and even try to set a national record at regional races. Therefore, if you had a hot stocker from Nebraska or California or Ohio or Ontario you could see their records and get ready to compete with the same set of rules against the nation's (world's) best at INDY.
The choice of Indy was due to a central location to facilitate competition for the little guy and even the playing field for those who had a chance of competing to be the BEST.

The "BIG GO" at Indy provided this opportunity and venue.

The idea was INCLUSION of everyone and their combos, no matter how diverse, so if you desired you could race and PROVE you had the hottest 6 cylinder ride (as an example) in the nation.
Then you could compete with handicapping against the V8 and big HP guys to become "Top Eliminator".
EARNING that Class win and the title held weight and bragging rights that people had respect for.

If there were NO CLASSES then Top Fuellers would dominate and everyone else could stay home, who wants to see a 8 second hemi SS car when you can see a 4 second digger?
THAT is the premise of classes, a place for everyone wanting to race.

Has NHRA sunk to the level that ALL that matters is the almighty buck and corporate sponsors?

Indy is the MECCA of Drag Racing on an international scale and in spite of NHRA's recent screw ups we have to let it be known that the original concept of Drag Racing still has value.

You should have the pride MANY racers have had over the years to paint on your fender "NHRA Record Holder" or "US Nationals Class Winner". This showed you worked hard on your specific combination and earned something of value on a national level and did not just luck out at some big buck bracket bash.
If we lose sight of that respect and pride, well I guess we deserve what we get...

If you really care, SPEAK OUT to the NHRA management, the racing media, get your sponsors involved and most of all voice YOUR opinion Loud and Proud.

I think you know where I stand on the issue.
Then again, I would also like NOT to see Funny Cars as rolling corporate billboards and have REAL NAMES on their sides, I want to see AA/FA'a running in competition and maybe a Mod Prod car or a dual engine Top Gas car making a pass....
Be silent my friends on losing classes and class winners NOT being in the eliminator and Stock & SuperStock will become "all run", then have class numbers reduced and consolidated, then be a mere footnote in drag racing history when it gets axed.

You do not thing so?? As anyone who used to campaign a car in any of the aforementioned classes ...


Think about it.

INDY is NOT "just another race". It is THE Race.
Classes matter and Class wins and winners matter.



Thanks;
Derek

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

charlie bob chuck wagon downing...

you are right, me and all the old timers who pioneered this class are just living in the past. hell since the internet there have been more enhanced rules than in the 40 years before it, i can hardly believe stock survived without you guys. i truly thought if anyone young would be different it should have been you. YOU had the advantage of your fathers advice and financial help, and you had me and MJ to tutor you too... but alas look how you turned out...

you think it is ok to kick to the curb the honor of class champion and the spot in the field that goes with that honor... but then you think its no big deal to disgrace yourself and your family by your performance in the barn at indy last year, not to mention a #1 qualifying theft in joliet and a near miss at ohio valley all with bogus ****... i guess thats really getting out there and working on your car.

you're right chuckebob... if you are the future of NHRA stock eliminator im too old and need to move on.

jack mccarthy

and by the way i will qualify this year too... and unless the rule changes it will be my last indy.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Stock elim. "DIED" in 1985 when they changed the camshaft and valve spring rules. Its been dead for a long time and it will never be as it was. Its called evolution for better or worse (mostly worse). Billy Knees.....you should know I didnt mean that 101 % of the stockers would flunk a "Marty" tech....just 99.9 % of todays current crop of stockers. Sorry for that misleading statement but we all know the cars I was refering to. It seems today that a lot of racers and engine builders have "ZERO" ethics. They dont care what they have to do to win and go fast. It means nothing to be 1.00 + under these days. Its all about getting in the field any way you can.The more the NHRA ties the tech inspectors hands the more people will do and get away with. All this crap about weighing pistons and rods fell by the way side. When was the last time that was done since that came about? I wont even talk about the heads, lifters, and intakes as thats a "dead horse". Soooooooooooo the moral of the story is....a class win dosent mean much any more. The current crop of "professional" bracket racers in stock (or S/S) can barely change a spark plug much less build a race car. Its all about money and buying the trick of the week or the best bogus engine and slap the inspectors on the back while using anything and everything to beat the system. Eliminate ALL of the electronics, bounce the bogus crap and lets see how many winners we have left. Drag racing is changing and theres nothing much the older generation can do about it. Live with it or get another hobby.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Welcome to the NHRA under the fearless leadership of the Dog Food King.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

BTW....

For those of you who find the rules change with no rhyme or reason by NHRA every time you want to go to the races...there ARE alternatives.

4 years ago, fed Up with BS and long tows for 2-3 runs and a paltry purse at the US Nationads a group of racers decided to take ACTION instesd of whining.

The STOCK / SuperStock Challenge race : The INDY Alternative.

The race is a one day deal with the FOCUS on a Stock & SuperStock combo elimnator and is run on Labour Day weekend.
The past 3 years it was run at Sanair but track Management gremlins have made it necessary to run at another Montreal area track this year, Napierville Dragway.

There is a good purse, lots of side prizes and it is a LOT of fun.

It is organized by Stock racer (A/SA) Michel Cote of Magnum Performance with support and help from Mike McCollum (E/SA) of McCollum Racing Entreprises and general hype from your truly ( Derek Goldthorp, editor of the defunct Torque and RPM.com).

Event Run By Racers for Racers.


HEY...do not take MY word for it ask some former winners:

Dave Casey
Greg Gay
Cantusi Racing

...a note about Napierville, a basic track with a lot of SOUK.
The recent NED National Open was won by Stock racer Adam Strang.
Ask Him about the track and when the field was short they STILL paid $4,000 to the winner (Adam).

It leaves me asking the question... WHY do people that complain about racing and not enough good paying events NOT get out and RACE???
If there was a full field, there would have been a $5,000 payout!!
Come on.... MORE than enough to cover the high gas prices that we all face.

RACERS...this is your call out!
If you do not show, you lose the right to complain.

So go to Indy OR the INDY alternative this year BUT please, get out and RACE!!



Cheers;

Derek

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

What Derek talks about is exactly why we started the Southern Stock/Super Stock Assn.! Lots of classes and lots of FUN! No Problems we can't fix! Just plain fun! Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

jack don't tell me about cheating, you of all people know about what happend at indy last year with a motor I did not own. Why do you think I doing not reply to some of these half wits. I'am not saying A-V class winner should not be put into the show. If you want this problem to go away it is very simple add classes x and z and get rid of the five front wheel drive classes. Then I will be all for class winner bump ins. I'am just sick of seeing the same thing year after year with the front wheel drive cars. Two bump ins is fine with me, it's better then five. Jack I learned most of what I know from you, MJ and others in that area. Don't be so quick to turn on me. You know how much winning class at indy means to me, you were there in 06 I recall that night very well along with other stock racers.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Capt. Jack,
Like you said maybe we are to old, But we have some pretty fast race cars to be 40 years behind in the TECH. field. Alan

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Amen!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Mike Galuk......Do you recall the time years ago when Marty required a head to be pulled and a piston/rod to be pulled also....at tech-in at a points meet....because he was so incensed at all the reported cheating going on? Seems a little extreme, but I THINK I got the story right?

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

No sir I do not recall that, but I might not have been there. Some of the older guys on here might remember it. How about it Jimmy Gower, do you remember that far back(LOL) Mike

Mike Galuk
JOE COOL RACING

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

All this makes me love the "gasser days".

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

2007 Indy facts
10 bump ins, 5 automatics, 4 sticks, and 1 fwd
All the other fwd's were in on time!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

LESS than 10%

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Not trying to be funny, but can someone explain how one gets thrown out of STOCK ELIMINATOR for being TOO STOCK?