Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Problem is Max Wedge cars have also dropped in value, $65K to $75K and you should have a few to choose from. :(

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

I agree with Alan, their going to ask a lot but not going to get it. Not having the original motor just makes it a 1966 Dart.

I will be really interested to see how much it goes for.

My guess is that the bidding will stall at about $20k unless there are some people that really know what the car is.

Jim

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Seems to be missing some of the hard stuff to find such as the Dougs headers and possibly the duel point distibutor of course you can't tell by the picture. The carb would also be something I would focus on since that's a rare bird to find. I ran into a guy last October at SpringFling in van Nuys, CA that had a D/Dart intake with the correct modifacation, an original race hemi 4160 and an aircleaner. He was selling it off as an originial until I pressed him and he admitted he made up the package. sure would be nice to have all the racing heritage to go with the car.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

>>>"a D/Dart intake with the correct modifacation"

And, what sort of modification might that be?

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Bill,

If I remember correctly the stock cast iron 235hp manifold was bored out to allow use of the holley 4bbl so the the butterflies would clear.

If I'm wrong about this, I welcome any corrections.

Jim R

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

I think that 275HP motor had an aluminum manifold.

Could be wrong...

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

I always heard that the first ones were equipped with a cast iron. single plane marine manifold that was machined to allow the bigger throttle bores on the Holley carb. Later ones were equipped with an Edlebrock D4B.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

They had a cast iron intake --- P/N 2536771. There was an in-house manufactured 1/2" high aluminum adapter for the Holley 4160 carb - List # 3778. The throttle plates and the holes in the intake and adapter plate were 1 11/16. That I know of, no aluminum manifolds. I have car number 1 and had car number 46. Both had the same intake manifold. From the Galen "Part & Casting Numbers Book", it was used on engines W/C.A.P.

Not sure if there were any cars built after the first batch.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

My old "Direct Connection" bible, circa 1978 has info on this package car and no mention of an aluminum intake.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

At some point it looks like there was an aluminum intake somewhere, as it is now legal on the 235HP "Commando" motor (manifold newly legalized), because Angela Bushmaker's K/SA car has one on it, now, and it wouldn't be on there if it weren't legal. She has a '65 Valiant 235HP car.

As to where its original app. was, I don't know. I'm inclined to go with Dwight's information on this, just because everything of that nature was always so "fluid" at MOPAR back then; especially, on a deal like these on again/off again D-Darts. Seems like they made it up as they went along...

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Edelbrock released the D4B for the early 273's. Not sure if any of them had Chrysler P/N's on them or not. I do have an LD4B that has Chrysler P/N 2836139 cast into it. I think this is the one that is being used by Angela.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Who says that Edelbrock intake is legal for a 273-235 in stock?
Where is that information listed? Not in the blue prints or classification guides.
Maybe I can run a Rat Roaster on my Hemi now?

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Bill Bushmaker owns the '65 Valiant that his daughter, Angela drives in K/SA (Div. VI) and the engine work is performed by Larry Hollums, in Kent, WA. I talked to Larry about this car a couple of weeks ago and he said that they had just finished putting a newly-approved aluminum intake manifold on the car.

Bill and Larry have been knee-deep in NHRA Stock Eliminator for over 30 years; they're not going to install a manifold that's going to get the car bounced.

I don't know why the information is not in the Blueprint specifications, but probably, NHRA laid-off the person who changes the info on that website in their last round of cost-cutting measures.

If you want to run a Rat Roaster, put the car in Super Stock and have at it...


Bill

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

There is no listing for ANY intake for the 273/235 in the engine specs. The next question is, how can anyone run the 273/235 combo without an intake? That must be one good trick. I have been told by a couple of different tech inspectors over the years "If it's not in the guide, then you can't run it".

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Its in the "SECRET" guide used on the west coast.....lol

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Terry, obviously, why didn't I think of that.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

I'll call NHRA Tech on Monday and try to find out why that (or, at least, SOME manifold) is not in the blueprint specs online. Hard to get them to start without something to bolt the carb to....

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

There are LOTS of pre-1967 specs without manifold #s. Back when this data was gathered, everything was typed by hand and duplicated by hand, so anything that was not necessary was not published. Also, "back then", there were not many choices of production manifolds since most of these engines were only a few years into production and everybody "knew" that an aluminum aftermarket manifold was bogus. The very popular combinations have forced tech to get and publish data. It is only an issue in situations like this where shenanigans go on. Welcome to an era of relaxed values, leadership that has shelved integrity, and a kinder, gentler definition of truth. Oh, and we want people to be fast with no pain.


You know that those factory cast iron intake manifolds are soo-o-o-o- hard to find; much harder than an era correct LD4B.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Good post, Dwight!

However, this sort of thing has been going on for so long, and is so entrenched in the M.O. of NHRA tech, it's a case of the horse having left the barn YEARS ago, with the advent of 327 intake manifolds on 283's, aluminum heads on select engines, 904 T-Flite internals inside BIG cases, and now, metric 200 transmissions in cars that were built YEARS before the transmission was even dreamed of...

Yep, I think the horse is long gone, and he ain't comin' back....

More's the pity...

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

My fellow D-Dart friends,

This is what came on the 66' D-Dart 273/275 HP engine.
The block was a standard 273/235 HP HiPo, with a forged steel crank.
The pistons were standard 273/235 HiPo, 10.5-1 compression with a
2-step rise in the piston (Not domed, as some people think).
The pistons were full-floating.
Standard oil pump. (No windage tray or Hi Volume pump)
Standard 273/235 Hi Po steel timing chain.
The camshaft was not a .520 lift racer Brown as some people think. Though Racer Brown did develop cams for the Max-Wedges and
Race Hemi's, they did not provide the camshaft for the 273/275 HP
D-Dart. The camshsft was provided by Camcraft, out of Easton,
Maryland. The lift was .495 intake and .505 exhaust, with a 284* duration. That cam grind was the same Camcraft recommended for their 273 marine performance engines. How they got involved is still a mystery.
The heads were stock 273/235 HiPo, but the valve springs were
Racer Brown, 260lb. rated tension.
Stock steel valve spring retainers.
Amazingly, the stock steel push rod (yes bendable and breakable) were utilized.
The cast iron (YES!) cast iron intake was a stock unit. The carb venturi
holes were bored out from 1 1/2" to 1 11/16" to accept the larger butterfly openings of the Holley carb, The machining of the intake was performed at the factory. The D-Darts that left the LA plant did not require a carb=adapter plate. In general, the low-plane X-runner shape
intake was a piece of garbage. Small runner ports and low-plane was good for low-end torque, but at top-end the air-flow suffered.
The carb was a Holley #4160, 600 cfm vacuum secondaries.
Air-cleaner was specially designed low restriction-type.
Distributor was a dual-point unit, that was modified (vacuum advance unit was removed), to provide for mechanical advance only.


Paul

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

D Dart information.

The D-Dart was built in April 1966, in preparation to put cars out there
before the 1966 Sringnationals in June.
The 275 HP rating was advertised by Chrysler, not set by NHRA.
The lb/hp rating factor of the car was 10.71.
The factor ratio of D/Stock in 1966 was, I think, 10.40 to 11.20
The 273/235 HP cars had a rating factor of 12.63.
They fell into the F/Stock class, 12.00 to 12.80.
I might be slightly off on the NHRA factors. Back then NHRA factors
were by .70 or .80, instead of today's.50 factor.

Paul

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

D-Dart,

If anyone wants to contact me about D-Dart info and/or several photo's of
an original D-Dart, you may.
e/mail: jvshank@connectnc.net
As for the photo's. I have several from 1971, of a woman racer
named Lori Kane. Her white Dart was lettered Kandy Kane across the doors, with a red and white striped Candy Cane painted in between the
lettering. Her car was sponsored by Garrison Shell, Garrison NY.
D-Dart was painted on the front fenders.
If you look closely at the windows, the car is classed in H/Stock..
From the information that I have gathered, the D-Dart 275 HP rating was
re-factored to 255 in 1971, re-classifieing the car from F/Stock to
H/Stock. Now when NHRA dropped the factoring of the car from stock is still a mystery.

Paul C

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

D Darts:

Well I just dusted off my 1966 rule book and discovered a couple of interesting things. First, the classes and weight breaks were not uniform. Stick cars started at S/S, then A/S down through O/S. But the automatic cars stopped at J/SA. The super stock class was 0.00 to 6.99, then as follows: A, 7..00 to 8.69, B, 8.70 to 9.49, C, 9.50 to 10.59, D, 10.60 to 11.29, E, 11.30 to 11.88. and on down the line. How they came up with these breaks is a mystery. Another interesting note is that if your car wasn't in the classification guide, they just weighed your car, subtracted any fuel at 6 lbs/gal and divided by the factory advertised HP, and that was your class. There were no NHRA 'FACTORS' for HP, just factory advertised ratings. So the D Darts fell in the D class at 10.60 to 11.29 lbs/hp. Thsi sure brings back memories of a simpler time!

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Steve,

Great job in posting the 1966 stock class factor ratios.
I guess my mind is not that out of tune, I was only off a little on the factor ratios.
If you could, would you give me the factor for F/Stock in 1966.
It started at 11.89, according to your guide, what ratio did it end at.
in 1966 I ran a 66' Barracuda 273/235 HP, and it fell into F/Stock, at the high end of the weight break.
In 68', we ran a 67' Barracuda 273/235 HP that was classified in J/Stock, when the factoring changed. 12.50 to 12.99 for our class.

Thanks,

Paul

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Paul:

The F class went from 11.89 to 12.49, and then G stock went from 12.50 to 13.99 seconds. The bad part of the old system, as I'm sure you remember, is that if your car didn't fit in at the low end of the class you just had to carry the extra weight ( you couldn't lighten up to the minimum). Running off the national record was also a problem if you happened to be in a class that had been bombed by a fast car. All these problems eventually led to the formation of Bracket Racing. Interesting that 43 years later we're still arguing over how to make class racing fair.

Steve

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Steve,

Thanks for the F/Stock factor rating. brings back memories of when stock class racing was fun. Bracket racing just took the fun out of us
4-shift stick guys,
Anyway, I found an old Hot Rod magazine with 1966 NHRA info in it.
NHRA's intention in 1966 was to help rate the classes for the new
1966 model year cars, as oppossed to just regular factoring by .50 or
.70. That's why the factor rating is all over the board for 1966.
A/S was to be set for 66' street Hemi's, 327/350 HP Chevy II's,
427/425 HP Biscaynes and 427/425HP Galaxies.
B/S was for 396/375 HP Chevelle's.
C/S was for 389/360 HP GTO's and 400/360 HP Olds 442's.
D/S was for 289/271 HP Hi Po Mustangs.
NHRA's intention was to try to balance out the new 1966 cars into
specific brackets. Of course, everything got messed up over the
years.

paul

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

What I find interesting is that the manifold off the marine 273, the bores are 1 11/16". Had access to one week before last and it measured 1 11/16" so it's possible that's what they used on the D 273.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall at the Bushmaker garage when they discuss how they ran using that intake. The Edelbrock D4B was a factory over the counter replacement intake for the 273/318 starting in 66. I have several so I'll look at the part numbers and post it.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Well.......my old D/Dart is going on the Mecum auction block in about 4 hours. Any guesses as to what it will bring? At the price range listed in the Ellis Brochure, I doubt if it will sell. If nothing else, it will be a TV Star.

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

I just saw a thread somewhere the other day on, I'm guessing your car. It was apparantly a no sale at an auction somewhere. The pictures of the car were amazing, what a neat piece of racing history!

Re: Whither 1966 D Darts for Stock
 

Bump!!