Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

If they become that fast,they'll disapear from A and AA,and as I stated,NHRA will take a long time!....Ford Mustang ....."official car of the year"???

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

The Shelby name is a car company name. You can buy a Shelby through your Shelby "authorized" Ford dealer but it is still a Shelby. The vehicles that Shelby produces start with Ford platforms and Ford drivetrain but in the end they are Shelby's. That's why 1967 GT500's can race with non-existant (at the time) single 4bbl's et al, because Shelby (not Ford) signed the required NHRA documentation.
Today and for the last several years, Ford Motor Company has only produced for public roadways a Mustang with either a 4.6L V-8 and a V-6.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

now that the cat is out of the bag, what is the HP potential or airflow potential of that blower? answer the question honestly, or any further input to this thread will be meritless. I know what other blowers of similar displacement are capable of, even on the 4.6 4v motors. NHRA has admitted that they have no specifications on this blower (rotor specs, case clearances, pulley sizes, boost@the rated 425 hp, max boost and or airflow of the unit, etc). All of this info will determine the potential of that combo.

I once spoke with a very well regarded engine builder who specialized in turbo motors. I asked him what the ideal comb was for xx turbo. His repsonse was that it doesn't really matter, the turbo makes the power. I think that holds alot of merit with supercharged motors as well ( i understand that the positive diplacement blowers are somewhat more affected by upstream restrictions.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

well based on that bolded statement, kiss your credibility goodbye.

do you really think a stocker L88 maks 880 hp?, a 425/427 makes 850? the SS versions of those motors don't make that

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I asked all of the ford guys in pomona this weekend what they thought the capabilities of the car were with the blower, and none of them would give me a straight answer. They all know this thing has the ability to way go faster than 1.3 under, but not one would admit it.

Then i had the fortune of meeting one of the most prominent comp and super stock engine builders in the country, who was actually HONEST with me. I'm not sure if he would appreciate being named so i won't do that. But he explained to me that he going to be doing a motor on one of the CJ's and the he believed this combo is capable of 9.30s or 9.40s maxed out. It is definitely safe to say that the blower supports over 700hp, since they have a production motor rated at 700. I just really doubt the 700hp Shelby is the upper limit of that blower.

If they don't create a new class they will just baby these cars and absolutely destroy ANYONE who they have a heads up against. I want to see them stay, but it's pretty ridiculous how underrated they are.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Every time that they end up racing these things heads up for class, someone is going to want to win and then they will start getting horsepower. Eventually, they will have a trunk full of lead or NHRA will create a new class for them. Either way, they are kind of cool to me.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Not so at all. There is a Shelby GT which is a regular Mustang sent to Shelby's facility across the street from the parking area at LVMS for cosmetic add-ons. The GT500 comes out of Detroit that way.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

No Chad I don't think those combos make that much HP. Yes, the car is underfactored, but you can't say put this combo on a dyno and adjust the HP but don't worry about all the other combos in the guide. I think you guys are blowing this out of proportion. I don't think there will be that many people running them. Who would want to work on one, much less tear it down at the track? There has been a supercharged Mustang in the guide for years and nobody has run one (that I have seen).

Does anyone know how many people are planning on running this combo?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Jeff there are two types of Shelby vehicles. Ones that were built as standard Fords (and previously Dodges) then delivered to Shelby Automobiles where they were modifed (ie: the original 67 GT500's, GLHS omni's and Chargers, etc), then there are the OEM built cars that carry only the Shelby name - Regular Shelby Chargers, Shelby Z Daytona's and the current GT500 Mustang. Shelby Automobiles does offer their own versions of the Mustang but they don't touch the GT500.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

That is a sweeeeeeeeet car!!!!!! Good for FORD.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

NHRA tech has access to any information they need. I met with them in Indy and even brought hardware to educate them on what was coming. As you know the supercharger is a positive displacement pump, the faster you spin it the more air it pumps but its only part of the engine system in terms of HP potential. As one of the parameters that NHRA has indicated must be maintained for Stock eliminator is the stock pulley size - That pretty much limits the blowers potential.


BTW - the 700HP Shelby Mustang offered by Shelby Automobiles (not Ford) uses a different supercharger, they are using a larger displacement Screw Compressor to achieve this power level.


Congratulations to John Calvert for winning Stock eliminator at Pomona in the debut of the Cobra Jet.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I can assure you all that my 427/425 with 401 heads made 596 peak horsepower on a DTS dyno. I ran it as light as I could because IHRA's AA/S class is a 7# class. At a test session in Darlington, SC, December 10, 2007, @ 3230 pounds (200# light for NHRA AA/S) I ran 9.520 @ 138.30. 60'(1.279) 330(3.820) 660(5.998@113.61) no 1000' time....9.520@138.30. The air density was 420'. It was full of oil, so it MIGHT have gone high forties. My point is the CJ's have already gone 143(was told it was the car John won the Winters with. CONGRATS to John and his crew!) You will see these cars in the 9.20 range when all is said and done.

As I said in a previous post, NHRA had factory advertised hp to rate cars, which they did not have with the CJ's. They had to take someone's word for 425. Whoever accepted that number needs their head examined. If anyone with a conventional stocker thinks they can compete with this package, I suggest you save your time and money....just my opinion.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

A really good stock eliminator motor will make about 1.5 times the rated horsepower. These are motors that have been flogged over the years and a lot of r&d done. For the new cobra jet that number would be 637hp. The problem with this whole deal is the hp rating. Everyone on this site knows it's a bogus number. If this new Ford was rated properly it would not even be in stock and we wouldn't be having these discussions.

Greg

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Jeff,

The Shelby GT500 is 100% built by Ford on it's assembly line in Flat Rock, MI, This car is a Shelby in name only. The Shelby GT, which is naturally aspirated or can be supercharged is a Mustang GT that is modified by Shelby Automobiles in Vegas and is sold new through Ford dealers. The Super Snake is a post-sale modified version.

Evan

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Evan I agree. But a Shelby is a Shelby no matter where it started life. I invite anybody to look in the NHRA class guide. There is a dedicated Shelby section. It has been the argument of Shelby racers for years that Shelby is a car manufacturer and that is why they have enjoyed privledges that Mustang racers have not had. Now they want it both ways. And to put it into perspective, that would mean the 1967-1970 Mustang should be allowed all Shelby engine packages. Right?

I also recognize NHRA states in the Stock rules "need not be showroom available" an inclusion that has only been in the rule book for a few years as previously a vehicle had to be "showroom available".

Obviously my argument is supportive of "the way it was". The newest rules on this issue are clear; this CJ500 is acceptable to NHRA. Obviously, as John Calvert just won the premier showing of these nicely crafted cars. Great job and congratulations to John for a truly spectacular debut!

But stand back and ask yourself "is this the direction Stock should go?" How about if Chevrolet decides to offer a race-only Camaro next year with a SC 638 HP ZL1 engine and lowers the compression 1 point, gives it a smaller cam and valves and calls it a 400 HP rating with all carbon-fibre body panels? As long as they build 50, it should be allowed.

Since 1965 race only packages such as this have been directed to Superstock. I believe that tradition should still remain. That or allow all the old "race-only" packages in Stock.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Evan,
You need to have a staff meeting on this! Seems to be some ambiguity on the specs between the GT500 & the CJ500 engine specs. But for the real tech heads, it's all on-line at www.nhra.com .
(From Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords online 02/11/2009, see complete article and source @ http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...jet/index.html )

"...Ford delivers the Cobra Jet cars with a glaring 400 horsepower (nudge-nudge, wink-wink), a rating far under the combination's potential thanks to Ford Racing electronically controlling output so that it fits in the rules. Let's be realistic, the engine is a GT500 powerplant with a TVS blower, larger throttle body and MAF sensor, and long-tube headers amongst some other minor details. The 400 horse rating is far less than what that engine could produce with a little bit of a workout on the chassis dyno...."

Seeing that Ford Racing is "Ford Racing electronically controlling output", I'm still sticking to my prediction of 9.38 @ 142 that will ultimately be unleashed from these Shelby's, err, Mustangs!

And one last thing and then I quit, if these were labeled "Shelby's" with the "lite-weight drag-pack" option instead of Mustangs, I wouldn't have any beef.

Congratulations on Ford putting together one helluva package!

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Ford did that with the 428 Cobra Jet too but it's been worked out fairly. The engine relies on boost rather than RPM and if that is limited so is power. These things have tiny 3 1/2" bores and huge 4 1/4' strokes.

The Shelby GT500 could just as well have been called the Mustang Cobra but marketing it on the Shelby name and heritage seems to have worked well for sales. Check the window sticker on one and see where they are shipped from.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Jeff,

Respectfully, Ford wanted to run Stock because it wanted a car in the top class. NHRA has reserved the top class of Super Stock for Chrysler products only, so why should Ford build a car to be second fiddle? I disagree with the SS/AH-only class, because it is unfair to other manufacturers and racers who would like a shot at the lime-light. In addition, Ford wanted to build a turn-key racer, much like it does in road racing. We all know this would be out of the realm of a OEM to build a turn-key Super Stock car.

So. where does the CJ really belong? Perhaps Super Stock is a better place, that is certainly a good argument.

If Chevy or Chrysler builds a car that fits the current guidelines I am all for it no matter where it falls. I would be pissed if I raced a "A" or "AA" car, I'll admit that, but any racer gripes should with NHRA, not Ford or the guys racing them. If the cars fly like all of you are predicting, then I'm sure NHRA will take action. I can't speak for NHRA, but I'm sure it doesn't want egg on its face over this.



Evan

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Evan,
There is a strong possibility that both of them will have egg on their faces. Placing the CJ in regular Stock is something that nhra and Ford wanted. At Pomona, Brent Hajek said it was his impression the cars would run in a separate class such as FX but somewhere along the line the CJs wound up in regular Stock.

On a personal note, I'm very happy for John. He worked his butt off for weeks on end and showed his world champ class by winning a marathon event. All of our cars are just chunks of metal, plastic and rubber but it is the human aspect of the sport that is so appealing.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Holy Cow Bruce -- your last post is showing a "soft" side we've never seen before...............Is this the 2009 version of a kinder / gentler you ?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Evan, you bring up a good point. However why not use the 4.6 4v motor with the blower and arrive at an HONEST hp factor. Since there is no "street" version of this engine, and the closest relative to it is rated at 500hp, its really hard to believe that its a 425 hp motor. We also know that it will take YEARS for the AHFS to catch up with these cars. If you look at the LS1 cars, it took several years to get the HP factor right, and that was after it was common knowledge that the street motor was under rated by gm (more likely for insurnace reasons, than to sneak up on unsuspecting stockers). I think that these cars running in the 10.0's and teens at pomona with mph in the mid 1teens tells the story. NO ONE stands a chance against these cars heads up. There are several factors that contribute to this, 1) supercharged engine with no genrealy available specs on the blower/boost (sorry Tim, i was told by somoene at NHRA tech that the field doesn't have that info as you claimed), 2) the engine is still using some sort of factory style ECU, mass air and all (its genreally accepted that a well tuned Big Stuff or XFI is worth some hp). 3) fly by wire (tons of LS guys use max throttle position to bracket race their cars very successfully, who knows how much throttle percentage they are running?)

Whats the solution? I would start with a well preppped engine on the dyno and use the 1.5 times factored hp formula. If its close FINE, if its way off then NHRA should adjust the factor on these motors immediately.

BTW Evan, ford should have really made sure that Red and Shaun LeBlanc ended up with one of these cars. After all they have done more for the Cobra Jet banner in recent memory than anyone else

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Chad -- I don't know of even one LS car in the country that uses "Fly by Wire".........do you ?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

every C5 and C6 vette is fly by wire. and i know plenty of guys who bracket race them. Some guys i know run an 11.50 index class with a car capable of mid 10's. adjust max throttle percentage in the computer and instant 11.49-11.51. My trailblazer SS is fly by wire, its pretty consistent as it is so i don't mess with the throttle percentage when i bracket race it. If I'm not mistaken the LS2 GTO's are fly by wire as well (not 100% sure on that one) i know the LS1 ones were cable operated

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Chad -- Let me rephrase -- do you know of any LS stockers (or S/S) in the country using "Fly by Wire" ?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

i know there is one guy in D2 that runs a street vette in stock, his is fly by wire. the new CJ is fly by wire. I'm not making an argument for or against just saying that a fly by wire system can be manipulated to SLOW a car down and its pretty consistent when doing so.

I know there are two other C5's running (corda?) but i don't know if they are still fly by wire or cable operated

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Chad -- What I'm saying is that you need to get your facts right -- stockers are not street cars .As far as the CJ's are concerned they will change to cables when they get aftermarket ECU's ................

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I have my facts straight, i was trying to illustrate what the CJ guys could be doing with the factory ECU. also if I am not mistaken there is an intereface for a GM Throttle controle module and an aftermarekt ECU. and yes there is one guy who runs a street vette in stock, hell he went alot of rounds at the gators last year till he had a heads up run. i never said that a bunch of stockers ran fly by wire, i am trying to get the point across of how easy fly by wire is to manipulate, what part of that was hard to understand?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Chad,

I don't know what the solution is. Fact is, the car is approved and that is all that matters. You could argue that it took the better part of 10 years to get the LS engines factored to a reasonable point. I know for fact that the rear-wheel hp numbers of a stock LS engine will be slightly higher than it should given the factory ratings. Everyone knows it takes time to get any new combo factored correctly. Should be now creat new precedent on how NHRA factors cars? I really don't know.

Red and Shaun are close friends of mine and have done quite a lot with their FEs, however, Ford's intent from a business standpoint was to sell all 50 cars and turn a profit. And how do you determine who gets free cars anyway? Ken Miele is a two-time national event winner with an FE, and there are many others who are deserving.

Evan

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

well that last part was just my opinion, lol. Shaun is a very good friend of mine as well.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Screw all of this ECU, fly by wire, computer crap. Real race cars have carbs (not the kind you eat) and doors (tail gates also).....lol.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Chad -- I get it perfectly -- you said there are "tons" of LS guys using "Fly by Wire" -- not true -- there are no Stockers.........Period ! ! Don't use me for an example if I'm not one . There are other places to talk about brackets.........this one is Stock/SuperStock .

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I agree with Evan. There are many deserving Ford Guys that would like to have
a free new Cobra Jet but I think Ford (or whoever) picked two of the most deserving
and won with one of them.

S.E.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Jack. The poin of what i said, and i even said they bracket raced with them, never said they were stockers, was to explain what the technology was capable of doing, how it could be manipulated. you just want to argue about something that was never a point. please show me where i said that there where a bunch of fly by wire LS stocker. I never said it. when you asked specifically about stockers, i told you what i knew, which was one street car that occasionally runs stock, and i raised the question of the several other C5's as I don't know, but assume they are cable operated. I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth, but I apologize if you didn't interpret what I wrote as I intended.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Bruce, as a Great American once said: "I feel your pain".
You have alot of good points

That being said, NHRA really opened the door for this a few years ago,when they allowed limited run/ low production numbers to run in Stock.
On top of that ,is the fact that bogus, low hp ratings have been submitted by the manufacturers for atleast 45 years.

But...anybody expecting NHRA to do anything about this, is dreaming.
They still haven't produced a ruling on Captain Jack's 3 speed automatic. What has it been ...8 months?

What you want to do, is call or write and ask that the AHFS be implemented 4 times a year.
It can't be that hard. They could just pay Nitro Joe to do it.
Calvert already put a strike on that combo. Soon as they run class run-offs,there'll be more.

Also, don't forget, Ford is an NHRA sponsor. It's called Pay to Play

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

In a smaller, more aerodynmic car it's less HP than it takes to go 138mph in a similarly factored Fairlane (Both are 425HP rated) - the new class record..

Chad - I'll look into it with NHRA. But while I do that go read up on the 2007-current GT500 Mustang - Street version of the 5.4L supercharged engine.
10,844 built in 2007
8,583 built in 2008
This same powertrain is planned I believe through 2011

The Ford produced supercharged 4.6L (03-04 Cobra Mustang) was only rated at 390HP.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

A few years ago I remember reading a post about aero (drag coeficiant) on cars posted by Matt Morgan
This was back when Top Stock just started in IHRA. It showed the diff in #'s between 68,69 Camaro, corvettes, and the (at the time) new firebirds. Astonishingly the numbers were almost identical! If I remember correctly it was his estimate that unless the car reached 150mph you would not see any benefit in the body.

My point is

If this is true I'm sure the Mustang probably is'nt any better in a wind tunnel than the newer firebirds which would take the aerodynmics out of the equation.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

NOT ONE ford guy will be straight up and honest.

The fact remains this car is not just softly rated but has a flat out bogus and unrealistic number.

I'm waiting for one ford guy to be honest in this situation.

Tim,

From everyone i spoke with, NHRA has no plans to check pulleys or measure boost in any way. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, because I would like to see them do it.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Al Corda's Vette should be "drive by wire", that came that way at least. The only LS1 "drive by wire" cars are Corvettes. LS2s & LS3s are all drive by wire.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Sean, I AM a Ford guy at the present time and I said this:

"On top of that ,is the fact that bogus, low hp ratings have been submitted by the manufacturers for atleast 45 years"

I just disagree with some as to what should be done about it.

I think the factory involvement in Stock Eliminator, is good for our sport.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Mark, I would have to agree with you as a whole but I can't think of any engine that has been this far off!! CAN YOU?


It's hard to believe that Ford would go to this extreme when it did'nt need to!! Oh well it is what it is