Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Smitty,
You are forgetting something. It doesn't take 70 grand to get a 2008 clone to the races. Blown up 2005 Mustangs are going for about 4 grand, the CJ motor is going for 18 grand. So it looks like 40 grand, or less, will put a racer at the top of the heap. And some of these cars are being built as we debate this issue.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

You can bet none of the Hayak cars are going to go stupid fast.The only solution is someone running A and AA with a ton of money building a car that Bruce just mentioned and going out and blasting down the track.Boy would that piss off all the blue oval fans who are laughing now.Like the TV commercial goes:
Going 1.70 under the index:PRICELESS.

Ed F.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

I think all I asked for was "Stinnets MPH". I didn't mean to start a 9 page debate.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Yeah but it was "the dreaded CJ's". Say the chrome trim doesn't look right and some on here will want it banned because it doesn't appear factory stock even though many other cars have long since changed trim,bezals, etc.

There are MANY examples and Dick disclosed a few.

Question: What if this was a regular mustang with no factory involvement and just happened to be a soft combo, would it draw the same response?

YES?? Then why don't ALL THE OTHER SOFT COMBO'S CAUSE THE SAME UPROAR?

NO? Then what you are saying is your against factory involvement or FORD FACTORY INVOLVEMENT?

MAYBE? Because it has a blower? AH! the dreaded blower.
How many other cars out there;
1) run boost
2) are underfactored
3) qualify at the top
..LOTS! but again they don't draw the same anger? And they don't cost $70,000 to build (oops I mean $40,000 right bruce?) No they are FWD turbo cars which are a lot cheaper to build than a CJ.

Not often I agree with Dick, but he's dead on. EVERYBODY should see this as a challenge for mopar and GM. If they can't do anything for a while than let ford carry the weight and back the racers and hopefully bring more exposure to S/SS.

What do you think the guys writing cheques at ford are thinking when they bring out a CJ for S/SS and expect to get kudo's and instead read all this crap?? WHY BOTHER! SCREW THEM ALL! We make more money building a gazillion "specialty" mustangs like foose/shelby/bullit/billybob special/etc, why the hell should we waste money on a car that causes a controversy and makes people hate ford? Let's stick to harley/scorpion/rodhall/etc f-150's where we are applauded for our efforts.

Way to shoot yourselves in the foot guys. Hate ford so much that even if they are the last company that can help S/SS (oh yeah THEY ARE!) you hate them?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

I still can't believe the debate is as much about the HP factor than the fact Ford does not build a Mustang with a supercharged 5.4L engine in it. Shelby does and that is a different manufacturer and what Shelby offers is a much heavier car. This Mustang is a factory built race car not sold for public highways and is therefore a factory produced super stocker by every tradition and past example in NHRA history.
But then again I see the "Thunderbolt" 427 / 425 Fairlane is legal for Stock Eliminator. When did that happen? That's another "off highway use" vehicle. But the Hemi Dart / Barracuda & 1969 AMX SS package are still Superstock only classifications.
I'd just like to see some uniformity...

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Sorry Jeff,
Most guys posting are afraid of uniformity. If it were offered then the "Money card" would have to be "played" By leaving a NON uniform many get a chance to build Aardvark turbo or FWD unknowns to be #1 qualifier and brag how the car is only $4000 total and they drive it to the track to rub it in. It is claimed to be an entry level racer.They are no less BOGUS than the Ford Mustang everyone wants to excitedly discuss here but it fits the top classes where more dedicated racers reside instead of off on the edge where no one is affected. Believe me if a FWD car ran stock in A/S and ran 1.8 under to qualify # 1 we would hear it on EVERY site about the same issues. Thankfully some still like Class racing Heads up and arent afraid to work , spend and drive hard to win in that arena.
We know from history only classes of ONE car combo are uniform. Now they added the stick and Auto to AH and factor them differently, So much for uniformity in that class now people need to build a Stick to get an edge for now.
I respect racers of ALL cars and combos but the issue is not new with a Supercharged Mustang just a new day.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

It don't matter how much bench racing we do on this site, it won't change the fact that the CJ's are running in stock and they are legal. You think for one minute NHRA will change there minds because there has been over 100 hits on this subject and 8000+ views? They don't care. Eventually someone will want to be the big shot and hold it though the lights and go 9.30 at 275mph and it will get hit with HP just like all the other 15000 classes have in stock/superstock. Don't get me wrong, im not for the blower stuff. I can't stand that there is a power adder being used in Stock because its not traditional. But on the other hand we should be happy that one of the big three has created a new age muscle car that does have some heritage. I like the car and think its pretty cool...BUT it should be fuel injected with no power adders. Now...if Chevrolet could only build a car that could run with it we would have a race. Win on sunday, sell on monday.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

I watched the nhra sportsman show last night taped from pomona. no sportsman cars but alky. lots of conversation and wasted time that could easily be edited out. not one mention of these historic cars ford built. nhra already does not care.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Let's try to make this as simple as possible.

40 to 50 Horsepower is soft.

100 to 150 Horsepower is grossly under-factored.

Now that hunk of tin doesn't know who made it. But it is a 100 to150 Horsepower under-factored hunk of tin. Comparing the Firebird debacle to this CJ mugging is just plain lame.This car does not belong in regular Stock classes; it's an A-Rod car.

Believe me, we all know that nhra is too pathetic to do anything about this. Most of us are debating this issue because we feel like we are on the right side of history; no matter which side they are on. And some folks are posting snarkie posts because they don't have a car to race or haven't grown up yet or both.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

LOL.....most don't know what kind of deal did Ford have with NHRA, I don't know, but would bet....something to the effect, 'we need a HP rating favorable to Ford to make these cars the shining star of Stock Eliminator and be able to outrun anything that exists' and in return we will..........

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Shouldn't you been able to go to Ford and be able to order one if that's the case?...this is just a kit-car..Nothing like the LT and LS 1's that sold in hundteds of thousands when they came out a bit soft..if these Fords had engines that were ava. and came out a little soft like the LS did i dont think people would/could have such hard feelings about it as they do now...I'm with Jeff on this one...but they should however have an class to race like the 68 Hemi's do...

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

It really amazes me how one sided some of you guys are about the new cars. As someone who has built several late model cars to run Stock, I can tell you that I would much rather start with a car like the Cobra Jet or the Challenger Super Stock. I have seen both cars and feel that they are perfect to run Stock. I think that it is absolutely great that the factories are even thinking about building cars that can run Stock let alone actually building them. I will agree that the rules have been changed over the years to allow the companies to submit combinations that fit their marketing plans, but isn't that exactly what Stock Eliminator has always been about? It has never been about protecting 40 year old cars. You also need to keep in mind that todays stockers are a whole lot more like an earlier Super Stock car. The current Super Stock cars are more like the early Pro Stocks. So, really these cars are a natural growth of the class.

The Cobra Jet haters are now saying that they are 100-150 factored horse power soft. They are soft for sure, but they have done nothing that suggests that they are that soft. These cars fit the printed rules in every way. Super charged combinations have been legal for Stock since the 1950's. These cars are no different than the ZL1 Camaro that is legal for the same class. They are ringers that had one goal in mind. Good for Ford!

In regards to the LT1 and LS1 HP numbers, you really need to keep in mind that both cars came with really mild camshafts from the factory. The LT1 was 201/208 @ .050" and the LS1 was 198/209 @ .050". The heads on both of these motors are vastly superior to any stock small block casting that came before them. It doesn't take a much to figure out why they run what they run. If you actually were to look up the stock dyno numbers on these cars you would know that they are pretty close to legit.

I really wonder what it took to bring these special cars to market? I will bet that it wasn't easy. Maybe we should let them have the spot light for a while. It might even help Ford sell a few Mustangs. In this economic environment that would probably be good for all of us.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

You were able to order them. They were built ready to race. Those are facts that I thought everyone in the discussion understood. I think the debate is more about how they were built and what they mean to the class. I think that eventually AA should become a 7.00 class and all the existing classes should be moved back .50. That would of course mean that 40 year old cars will no longer be the top dogs.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

The new CJ is a factory built race car. The kind of car that nhra routinely placed in Factory Experimental when the OEMs were playing before.

The 40 year old cars would no longer be the top dogs if nhra started a new factory Experimental class.

The CJ discussion centers around Horsepower and the abuse of the classification system by nhra. nhra knows what is going on here but they are too hard up to be an honest power broker in this deal. And the Ford engineers think they need to make twice the amount of rated horsepower to dominate. They told me that at SEMA.

A good multiplier for the 396 and 427 motors is 1.45 times the rated Horsepower, by comparison, the new CJ is making use of an 1.8 multiplier. Numbers do not lie. That's the good thing about drag racing, the numbers for this car, will continue to "amaze" the drag racing world and in turn it will prove our point about where it really belongs.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Bruce since you are putting numbers to it let's think about those numbers:


396 (rated 400hp) at a 1.45 ratio would make 580Hp = no way that is all these are making to run 9.70's.

Now the CJ, at 331 inches is 83.5% the physical displacement of the 396.

Using the 1.45 divided by 0.835 equals 1.74. This is the equivalent performance ratio required based solely on the delta in engine displacement. Not too far off your guess of 1.8 which is what they would have to be at to be performing equivalent at the same HP rating (ie: race weight). Since the CJ is rated 425Hp to the 400Hp of the 396, that ratio is 1.0625, multiply that by our 1.74 and you get 1.845. According to those ratios the CJ is handicapped to the 396. but pretty close again considering your .45 was soft (I think you posted your motor makes more than 580Hp)

So does 1-2 mph 1/8th mile really support the thought that these cars are 100-150HP underrated - these means you feel that to perform equivalent to the 396/427 cars the CJ should be another 750-1000lbs heavier. Ignoring that at that HP they couldn't add enough weight to actually run AA, using the old rule that 100lbs is a tenth these cars would slow down 0.8 to 1.0 from where they are today. Now I'm sure there is still ET in these cars but a whole second - get real. At least try to be realistic with your arguments.

Let's play devils advocate for a minute - there is 40 years worth of data to show that the Hemi's are overfactored against the 396 and 427 combinations - how many Hemi cars can run with the Chevy's in Stock or Superstock where they are in the same class? It's not for lack of trying. Why aren't we addressing that too?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Tim,

A good 396 will make approximately 580 (1.45 to 1.5) on the Dyno. A good 427 will make between 600 to 615 (1.45) on the dyno. You can take several of these cars to mine shaft or factored tracks and put up 9.70 numbers. Racers have worked for 20 years to get these numbers on the track, however their baseline dyno power multipliers are still 1.45 to 1.5.

When it comes to power, I'll gladly swap a Cheverolet Big Block for your 331 cubic inch Supercharged motor.You aren't denying the power number of 1.8 for your motor! Are you?

How much power are you guys making with this CJ motor Tim? A CJ has already put down a 9.78 in only it's second time at a sanctioned event. How much are you guys still holding? At this point, time is on our side. You guys have barged into Stock classes and had your way. Now we'll sit back and watch the numbers.

How much power is that little 331 Supercharged motor making? You can do it.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

There you go, take Pond's motor put it in a '64 fairlane add high riser heads more compression only +5hp
and take on the new mustangs ...maybe.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

The factors I calculated are a HP/cu in basis. Re-reading your previous assumptions I think you are thinking in HP/rated HP. Relative to engine displacement the ratios are legit, relative to factored HP we're all guessing and I think anything over 700Hp (with the stock pulley) is going to be a stretch.

Second sanctioned event after a year of track testing/development. These cars were not slapped together overnight.

Now to expect that any new engine/car combination will evolve at the pace the combos like yours have is absurd. Anyone with the knowledge gathered over that 20 years of development that you mention can apply that to a new engine and within a few months be running at a near equivalent level of optimization. You see this demonstrated when guys like Bob Shaw find some obscure combo that no one cared about, build one and run circles around everyone in its class - first time at a sanctioned event.

I don't know first hand what the limit is for these cars, i can guess like you (actually my guess might be a littel less dramatic). Probably even agree that these cars will justify some HP and earn it in the near future. I was hoping to see some entered in Gainesville to run for class (haven't looked to see if there are any Chevy hitters entered for it to matter).

BTW - no response from you regarding the Hemi's? Don't wanna bring that up as it doesn't benefit your cause?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Jeff - we've been over this before, I even posted production numbers. 5.4L supercharged Mustangs are built by Ford on the same assembly line as every other Mustang they produce. As uninformed as your average Ford dealer is they even know what motor comes in a GT500 (5.4L Supercharged) and where its built (Ford Vehicle Assembly- Dearborn Michigan), says so right on the window sticker.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

There are no new Cobra Jet car's listed in stock for Gainsville

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Tim,

I don't know jack about Mopar products. But I do understand how much you would like to deflect attention away from the actual numbers for the CJ which you refuse to offer.

The CJ waltzing into Stock is the true absurdity. Not whether we think it should take you 20 years to make the CJ fast. We all know how you did that. How about a Horsepower figure on that motor (not the limit)? The FRP folks say 750 with no problem. Do you agree with them?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

[WRONG Ford Vehicle Assembly- Dearborn Michigan

They are built in FLAT ROCK @ AUTO ALLIANCE Plant

QUOTE=Tim Kish;107796]Jeff - we've been over this before, I even posted production numbers. 5.4L supercharged Mustangs are built by Ford on the same assembly line as every other Mustang they produce. As uninformed as your average Ford dealer is they even know what motor comes in a GT500 (5.4L Supercharged) and where its built (Ford Vehicle Assembly- Dearborn Michigan), says so right on the window sticker.[/QUOTE]

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Not deflecting - looking for equal time. Just as unfair that those cars aren't competitive due to incorrect factoring.

The monster HP numbers you are assuming this motor can make will require a pulley change and a bigger throttle body (neither are stock eliminator legal).


Thanks Blue Oval Ralph for the correction - fact remains they are regular Ford production vehicles.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Tim,

That's really nice that you are concerned about the Mopar guys.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm posting what the Ford guys told me. I guess we'll have to wait a few more weeks.

Thanks

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

I dont think anyone can..or should i say "could have" bought them..sure looked like a "closed" deal to me.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

"The Cobra Jet Mustang (M-FR500-CJ) joins Ford Racing's two successful road racing Mustangs, the M-FR500-C and M-FR500-S, as turn-key race cars available only from Ford Dealers. We encourage you to take advantage of this unique opportunity to help rewrite history by ordering and campaining this new race car". (Ford Racing)

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Bruce,

If you read back over several of the Ford guys posts I think that you will see that they believe that a loophole exists in regards to pulley size. From what I understand, that loophole does not exist, so the stock pullies put a true limit to the HP potential of these motors. Keep in mind too, that a F/I motor will not respond as well to a lot of the normal stocker enhancements as a N/A motor will.

Why not give this a little time?

Daren

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Here's a legitimate suggestion for you guys that think the Mustang is factored soft.

Sit down and get your FACTS together as to why you believe the way you do. Submit them in a letter to Glendora. If you have solid evidence and don't merely write some emotional piece of tripe as to why you are getting screwed, maybe, just maybe, they'll add some HP to the Fords.

I have seen it work before. Just remember to stick with FACTS.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Big Show,

Actually that is nhra's job, but they have no facts about this car. Mostly because the FRP folks don't want nhra to know about the real numbers on the CJ motor. A 9.78 on their second effort might set off a few alarms.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Gump,

I'm guilty of reading and responding to the last post before I saw you post.

Sure, they have all the time in the world now. They nearly slipped one by us but we caught it in time and all we can do now is wait for the numbers to come rolling in.

I understand one of these motors may make it to a dyno soon. So they have all the time in the world or until nhra folds which ever comes first.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

NHRA is acting on the numbers they have been presented. Until any of the Mustangs violate the AHFS nothing will happen, and none of them have.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Can't believe after 113 posts and 12,300+ views that nobody would offer an official answer so I went to the source to answer my lingering question about who builds the CJ500.
I called Shelby Autos in Las Vegas today. At one time (1965-1967) Shelbys were built and sold by Shelby American. You didn't buy a Mustang, you bought a Shelby. That is what I thought was still in practice. Wrong. Today, you buy a Mustang which is licensed to wear the Shelby name and identification along with the official licensed add-ons (body panels, performance parts, etc.).
So I rest my argument that the CJ500 is a stripped Shelby, not a Mustang (or whatever the heck my argument was...;) )

I still believe a hand-crafted kit-car belongs in Superstock since they are not sold for public highway useage. But it's NHRA's rulebook that allows "acceptance will not allow precedence". Geez, with wording like that, why have a rule book? :eek:

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Big Show,

I do remember the swift change you made to the so called NASCAR Hemi. Mopar wanted it in at 410 and you changed it to 430..right? Not sure if you had any arrangements with Mopar at that time or what information you recieved from them. Have you asked for any realistic performance data from Ford Racing Parts? Like dyno sheets? You have made a complete laughing stock out of the ahfs so don't expect any of us to have any faith in that old sham. What ya gonna do when these cars are turned loose? That is if you are still in business when they decide to do it.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

I know that you are the moderator, but maybe you should move this conversation to a PM.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Gump

You have shown that you have been the moderator throughout all of the CJ debates. not being sarcastic. you seem to be able to sort the positives and negatives while not letting your emotions take control of your words.

thank you

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Gump,

Why should my freedom of speech be limited because I'm a moderator?

Cwigle,

Gump is pro CJs. Does that make a difference?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

No difference, his words seem calm and collected thats all.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

cwigle,

Gump has had his moments during these debates. Nobody can get into these drawn out threads without getting a little steamed from time to time. Myself included.

I'm willing to let the chips fall where they may. The word is out there now. We'll see what the future holds for these cars.

Thanks

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Actually, in regards to both the Cobra Jet and the Challenger, I love the cars, but am not keen on the powerplants. Many posts ago (and maybe even in another thread) I actually stated that. I would love to see cars like these with production 6.0-6.2 liter N/A motors. But, I also know that Ford doesn't really have a credible big inch N/A motor available (yet?). So, I am happy to see the S/C Cobra Jets draw attention to the class and maybe keep the Cobra Jet/Challenger type packages coming.
If I am pro anything it would be class racing in general. When I was a kid I was the one that used to write the NHRA and ask dumb questions about racing a GTO in Stock Eliminator. Funny thing is I always got a written reply.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

It's not to late ro order a 2010 Cobra Jet. http://www.fordracingparts.com/mustang/herocard10.asp.