Re: Lencos in SS
 

Ok, here's my take on this issue. Maybe I can clear up a few of the misconceptions. I've run both stick combinations mentioned here in two different eliminators with great success so I'm giving information based on personal experience, not heresay or theory. I'm not "current" on the newest rules and technology, both of which have probably evolved but the complaints, issues and applications I see here are still the same.

G&G originally built the first low drag, "all roller bearing" nash 5 speed transmission for me with a custom made second gear ratio. It was the bleeding edge of development so you see I am partial to technological advancements. Back then, clutchless 4 and 5 speeds were available but not legal in SS. So, if you are wondering whether or not they are available now, the answer is yes, they will build anything you want in a standard or custom conifguration if you are willing to pay for it.

The advantage to using a 5 speed with 4 gears in Super Stock is that you can underdrive 4th and not be locked into a 1 to 1 high gear in order to achieve the optimal gearing for your combo, an option not available in a 4 speed box. I ran this setup in a 283 car with an underdriven high gear as will as a SS/A and B stick shift car with delay box, electric button release and pneumatically operated clutch pedal. I was also one of the first handful of (5 or 6) SS racers to use the 4 speed Jerico transmission. At the time, it was not available (nor could I run it in SS) as a clutchless unit. I showed the gearset to Dave Danish at the US Nationals tear down barn and he agreed that with the backcut on the faceplates, it would be next to impossible to make a clutchless gear change without a power interuption, thereby negating any benefit of a clutchless gear change with a "standard" transmission.

Over the years I've had clutch levers break causing the clutch to drag on the gearchange and I was lucky to successfully get the car into the next gear. So I'd be very skeptical of anyone who tells you that they are making gear changes in a legal Super Stock stick car without using the clutch. Even if they had modified the trans to shift that way, it would not be reliable enough or consistent enough to go the 5 or 6 rounds necessary to win a National Event. Bottom line: If you are gonna present yourself as a Stock or Super Stock stick shift driver, learn to drive. And I'd tell the automatic guys the same thing. NO tranny brakes, NO delay boxes, NO lock up converters.

Now, clutchless gearbox. (Jerico, G&G or Liberty) Definately faster, but like most changes in racing, the overall gain is not made with a single change. The biggest gain with this combo is in the bellhousing. If you're after every hundredth, a Racepak or similar computer is a must and you are gonna have to learn the clutch and chassis. In the end it will be faster, more consistent and easier on parts. And for NHRA, they won't have to worry about checking for clutchless gearboxes.

As a die hard stick shift driver (and having owned and driven both combos to National event wins) I can't consciously agree with letting the automatic guys have tranny brakes, delay boxes, auto shifters or lock up converters in Super Stock without allowing the stick shift drivers the same technological benefits. It simply doesn't present a level playing field for all of the competitors. I've been against automatic transmission gagetry ever since Bernie Agaman (spelling??) introduced the first tranny brake in Super Stock in his Corvette. It was a pneumatic
emergency brake drum looking contraption mounted on the output shaft of the tranny. I feel like.... if you are gonna drive a car in a race, then learn to drive. If you wanna play games with electronics and gadgets, then stay at home and race with your Wii.

Cost?? Well, the cars will go faster with clutchless transmissions. They won't be as violent, they'll be safer, and they'll be easier to drive. As for the guys already in Super Stock, short term costs will go up but I believe you'll be getting your money's worth in terms of performance and adaptability and you can sell all of your old stuff to the Stocker crowd. The increased cost puts entry level Super Stock racing out of reach for more new competitors. Personally, I'd like to see em take away all of the "gadgets" being debated in this thread so we can see how many real drivers there are out there. I think the fans would go for it too. After all, isn't that how this "sport" got started in the first place??

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Pvt. Parts,
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have drove my brothers car with jerico just plain jerico nothing changed at all I shifted it clutchless he drove it that way every pass for 4 years first year he used the clutch. He was bracket racing every weekend and ran a few pro ams
but anyway he shifted without clutch 4 years probaly 1000+ passes rebuilt trans after
5 years racing replaced 2 faceplates/sliders had cracked shifting fork,the new one came in magged it and it was cracked as bad as used one also had small crack in low gear,we can't say after getting new fork with crack that fork and gear were'nt cracked when the trans was new. So what I'm saying they are being shifted without clutch and ran that way for hundreds of passes without breakage.
Mike Taylor3601

Re: Lencos in SS
 

What car? What Class? A Super Stock car??

Jerico may have taken some of the back cut out of the faceplates and they could be a newer design. I broke second gear in one of the first ones they build and I've always shifted a Super Stock car with the clutch. In fact, under power you couldln't pull it out of gear with both hands if you wanted to.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

i agree with pvt parts. the g-forces we have that are clutch assisted could never be pulled out without some ignition interuption. i know people say they drive them without the clutch, but not the ones we own.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Well, i dug some videos out of my library the other night and was watching some footage from national events from about 10-12 years ago and it was sure nice listening to all the stick shift drivers in Stock/Super Stock using the clutch as they went down the track-those were the days...:cool:

Re: Lencos in SS
 

abc

Re: Lencos in SS
 

That indicates too much clutch, base pressure, centrifugal pressure or a combination of the two. My 1997 Jerico was no different. Until I got the clutch right I couldn't pull it out of gear either. It's all in the clutch, not the tranny.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

i am no clutch genius, as this statement will confirm, but if a clutch is so loose you can pull a trans out of gear under what would normally be impossible conditions, how can the car be quicker if the clutch cant even put a normal load on the druvetrain. looks like you need something more than a clutch adjustment, looks like you might need more power.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

RPM and uninterrupted application of it....

Re: Lencos in SS
 

let me restate my question, if a motor pulls good from 8200 to 9900, and you lock it down hard in all 5 gears, and you see it never dropped below 8400, and did not blow the tires off, what benefit is slipping the clutch?

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Question for Sean How do you know if drivers in videos are clutching?
Thanx Trevor

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Lot of "IF`S" there! but Assuming it was "locked down hard" didn`t blow the tires off", I`d be betting the car owner would likely have a nice collection of broken clutch hubs,main shafts, trans gears, U joints, driveshaft yokes, ring & pinions, etc etc......

Re: Lencos in SS
 

rory, i understand what you are saying, when i say locked down, i mean a normal lock up of the clutch. everything in the drive line absorbs some of the shock. my theory is if the motor stays in its power range, would it be safe to say that the more clutch the faster you will go or am i missing something. i am not being sarcastic, i am trying to learn. i know people are slipping the clutch and running faster. i just dont know why in some instances. we have a computer and are just learning with it. we do not know exactly what to look for. it is possible our motor is not building enough hp that this will come into play.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Pvt Parts,
75 nova K/S 3720Lbs. You have to pull hard, first pass or two I missed shift points cause
I didn't pull hard enough.
Randy,
Is your car the Cobalt on you tube 11,000 rpm cobalt?
Mike Taylor3601

Re: Lencos in SS
 

yes mike, it is. if you click on camaromitch it will take you to the runs at osceola, the 11000 rpm takes you to our local track which was spec and all heads-up. all driven and owned by steve thompson now. we our partners. best partner and driver i have been with. he never gives up. thanks for asking.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I know the difference-trust me. :rolleyes:

Re: Lencos in SS
 

if you have a trained ear you can hear the differance in a shift with the clutch versus without.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Go listen to a round of Comp Eliminator and you'll hear the difference.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Absolutely, you can also SEE it in the gear changes as well...;) You would really be able to know if the clutch was being used if you were able to ride along. LOL :)

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I love to listen to cars on Houston 1 &Houston 2 videos. I think a car clutch shifted still sounds better,I still love the sound of a heavy flywheel car also.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Clutch assisted 4 speed. Video is crap but I was running a slower car with mufflers so all you hear is me...

http://user.streetfire.net/video/Spe...ico_171985.htm

Lenco VS Jerico...

http://user.streetfire.net/video/In-...age_210812.htm

Pair of Jerico's

http://user.streetfire.net/video/Fin...-60_166558.htm

Re: Lencos in SS
 

mike i'm with you those little inchers take longer to wind down than they took to wind up,it's a sweet sound.and as you can hear in dinsdale's video's on a clutchless shift you onlt hear a pitch change versus a clutch shift you can hear the clutch engage and pull the motor down.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Randy,
A clutch that is properly tuned (with slippage) will not pull the motor down as hard on launch. You can see and hear a car with too much clutch on launch. Big wheelies and slamming down are one clue, a discernible "uugh" at the top of the wheelie is another. Looking at 330' times are more important than 60' times as a heavy flywheel can look awesome on a 60' time (especially little engines) but will not carry that great 0-60' to the 60' to 330'.
The clutch that is tuned properly will separate on the gear changes at a more favorable rate for optimum ET. And the science is not just about adjustments. Weight, levers and materials come into play.
A great launch with a properly dialed in clutch may not wheelie as high, but that same car will carry it a lot further. The most awesome runs I ever had in D/S was a couple of passes which carried the front tires all the way through 3rd gear change and the car floated down very softly about a third of the way through 3rd.
The "locked up and tight" is possible with no wheel spin on launch or gear changes and no broken parts. I've been there. I've also seen tremendous drops in ET by loosening it up.
The formula I stand by as accurate is 1320/MPH = optimum ET. If you can't meat or beat that, there are issues. and it's most likely in the clutch.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

thanks jeff, that is what we are looking for. for example in ss/cs we have ran 142.78 mph and a 9.76 et. in the 1/4. in 1/8 mile we have ran 6.09 114.97. in g/sm trim we have ran 5.86 119.90. have not tried the 1/4 yet. is there more there? we plan on picking the g super motor up 50 hp this winter.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

"Let me restate my question, if a motor pulls good from 8200 to 9900, and you lock it down hard in all 5 gears, and you see it never dropped below 8400, and did not blow the tires off, what benefit is slipping the clutch?"


Check out Brett McFarlands red Camaro, about a third of the way through this video. This is a good, clean run, going 10.08 @ 131.06 w/ a 60' time or .01 or less off the formula. This formula is accurate.
So if you can accept this (try it on the NHRA web site for S/SS and Comp records), I would ask you if it's financially prudent to build another 50 HP or get a better clutch program (worth around .50 ET drop in this case)? PM me and we can discuss this further.
Jeff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQSo17aXsYg

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Thanx to all that have posted links and info. Jeff describes our experience with light flywheel. How much friction area do you think we should run ?