Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

Don,
You didn't get it... You said [I can beat myself more than they can beat me in most cases lol]
I was trying to say;
That is exactly what they allow you to do. You change your game and make mistakes to beat yourself.
No doubt they make more runs and have more time to hone their skills than a non touring racer. That is one reason I like the IHRA's new Championship series. It takes one of the reasons to be a touring pro out. (another thread there)
It doesn't matter how the systems (rules, too) are changed. The person using or participating in the system long term will usually adapt and use it better/more effectively than a part timer.
I see no way NHRA or any other organization can can adapt rules to "level the field" as you have suggested in your posts.
It's left up to you to level the field on the track.

Go bracket racing and get some seat time and get a run rythm... then learn to adapt to the conditions, even in a run.

Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

Don,
I may sound like I have you in the crosshairs, but it is just the way I have written the posts. Remember: I know when I'm pointing at you there are more fingers pointing back at me!
I try not to let things get personal or let personal issues become a factor in discussions.
This sport that we all love and spend so much time and resources on needs some creative discussions to stay healthy. Good discussions foster a pattern of thought processes. (ever participated in a Think Tank?)
note: That is why I was in a hurry for you to post and I do understand how you feel.

Re: my opinion
 

Adger < I am glad you agree with my comments

Where did he agree?He said the guys that travel are better at this game than the rest of us.
I guess your self esteem was hurt by being called a whiner.Don,did you ever serve in the military?They build character,by pulling the best out of their recruits by,OMG,calling them names.When I served they did more than that.Not now though.The point is you seem to
get defensive when others don't agree with you.Then you just keep it up till others finally
get to the point of just trying to light your wick.
One poster has agreed with your original idea.I guess all the rest of us are stupid and
clueless.
I heard there is an upcoming NHRA decision on this thread.Stand by.

Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

Don,

Have you ever watched racing from the finish line from a track where you can see what the drivers are doing? It is my belief that this is where the quality racers accel. Sure, winners cut good lights, but that is the smaller part of the game. The more important part is dialing your car and driving the stripe.

I can show you dozens and dozens of finish-line pictures of Stock and Super Stock races from the stripe, and there are many guys who NEVER look over, or if they do look over, they don't really have the techniques for making races very tight. Then they wonder why they lost? Many guys also hit the brakes after the stripe, or at the stripe, thinking they killed a bunch, and wonder why they broke out. You just can't take a half-car or more these days and expect to win many rounds.

I'm certainly no pro, but there is a lot of really bad driving out there. Reaction time is based on concentration (no matter what type of tree), driving the stripe is first based on haivng a plan (based on your dial and whether you are dialed soft or hard) then applying it based on what your car and your opponent are doing. You have to make split-second decisions and react on the fly. You need keen eyesight, a consistent car and lots of practice. It all must come together to make races tight, whether taking the stripe or dumping.

I understand your desire to win and your displeasure with guys who win a lot. It is understandable, but I feel you are wasting your energy picking apart the system. Personally, when I lose I can point to a mistake I made and I look to improve. I don't have the time to race as much as I used to, but I understand what it takes to win. Seat time certainly helps, but you have to have some talent, too, and the guys who win have TALENT. Why does that bother you so much? If you change the rules the smart racers will adapt and accel and the less skilled racers will be the same. This holds true in any sport and even in the workplace.

Evan

Re: my opinion
 

...

Re: my opinion
 

I will agree with the big name racers taking too long to get to the lanes. Nitro Joe had the right idea. After third call (or whatever the "final call" is), wait five minutes, and put the chain up. After that, too bad, you miss the run, whether you are Joey Bagadonuts or the World Champion. The only way I would waive this is if, IF, a racer had an honest mechanical problem that he/she was trying to repair. This is if one were to want the rule changed, or if NHRA felt stragglers were holding up the show.

As far as the touring Pros winning all the World Championships over the past ten years, this is false. Ricky Decker won last years S/S title, and is a single car racer. So is Larry Stewart, who won the 2003 or '04 title. Both single car, non touring racers. Edmond Richardson won this years Stock title, and only attended the allowable races to claim for points (6 Nat'l/8 Divisional). So did second place Anthony Fetch. Dusty Lowell finished fifth and still had THREE Nat'ls to claim. So there were three non-touring, non Professional Sportsman racers in the top five this year, while many other touring racers were further down the list. There are other non-touring sportsman racers that have won world championships also in the past 10-15 years. I had a list of all the Sportsman World Champs from 1965 to 2008, that I misplaced. If I can find it, I'll look them up for you. You don't have to be a touring, Professional Sportsman racer to win a World Championship, or even to do well. Fact.

I've raced two cars at one event twice before, in 2003. One at a Divisional race, one at a local bracket race the week after. I swore I would never do it again, it was a pain in the *** trying to race two different types of cars in one day. It may help some, and hurt others. The advantage gained by racing two cars helps BEST if the two cars have the same driving style. Take Bill Koski for example. Super Comp dragster: .400 Pro Tree, transbrake, delay box, air shifter. U/S '67 Belvedere: .500 Sportsman Tree, clutch car, manual shift. What he can apply from one car to the other is very minimal. Air conditions, track preperation, wind and other factors will affect one car more than the other, and to what extent is unknown, without a lot of time to figure it out. What slows a S/C car down by a hundreth will likely slow a lower-classed Stocker like that .03 or possibly more. So in cases like these, you can't apply what you learn with one car towards the other. Fact.

Your statement about pro sportsman racers "they are used to doing what they want to take you out of your game plan" is a crock of ****. A REAL racer can (or should) stay in the zone no matter what the circumstances. I'll give you a personal example. My rookie season in Stock, 2002, Dutch Classic at Maple Grove. I'm in the third round, ready to go to the water box. As I was putting my dial in on the first window, the tip of the shoe polish bottle broke and the whole bottle ran down the windshield. As I grabbed a towel to wipe it up and attempt to finger paint a dial-in on the windows and flag down an official to have him relay my dial to the tower in case it was not legible, my opponent is firing up to go the waterbox. I got in, went and made my run, was .012 on the tree and +.01 and won the round. I'm not posting this to make myself look good. I'm saying it to prove a point. Moral of the story is, a lesser racer would have been rattled and made a mistake. A good racer can, and will, continue to focus on the task at hand, the next round. Fact.

As far as your "level playing field" idea, it's a good one. But no matter what you do, in any given sport, the best will rise to the top. Fact. In recent memory in Class Racing, deep staging was banned because "all the good racers are doing it and winning". It was banned, and the good racers are still winning. Fact. A few years ago, it was a good idea to have a Pro Ladder. After a while, it was a bad idea because "the good racers are qualifying at the bottom and "stealing" the bye runs. We can't have this". Pro Ladder or Sportsman Ladder, the great racers still won, and will still win. Fact. We got rid of two-step buttons on the steering wheel because "all the good racers have them and they are winning". Now, buttons must be pedal mounted only, and guess what? The good racers are still winning. Fact.

For the hell of it, I went back and looked through this past seasons' events, and winners. Two car and/or Touring Pro Sportsmen races won 13 of 27 National events (48%) and 15 of 45 Divisional races (33%). In Stock, they won 7 out of 27 Nat'l events (25%) and and 13 out of 45 Divisional races (28%). Now, if these racers had this huge advantage you constantly talk about, shouldn't those numbers be higher? Seriously. You make it sound like it is impossible to beat these types of racers, and they win all the time. Fact is, the numbers don't lie, and certainly do not back up your wild theories. Fact.

Take your car out once in a while, practice, learn what makes it tick, get (or use) a practice tree, you will become a better racer. Without having to change the whole face of Class Racing for everyone to better fit your inadequacies. It worked for me. The second year I raced Billy Nees' stocker (2003), I raced seventeen weekends at NHRA, IHRA and S/SS Combo races. Not counting the Wednesday night and weekend bracket races and test and tune nights. That year and the next, I finished in the Top 10 in IHRA Division 1 points. I made myself better, I think you can too. It just takes a little time and effort.

So, I've shown you in multiple instances where you are wrong. Now, prove me wrong.

Re: my opinion
 

Don , Ol' buddy

A few comments before all this off season blather goes away, then.

I don't think you thought this all the way though, beyond what you think may benefit YOU.
There are a lot of ramifications concerning lower class Stockers , heads up runs, deep staging vs shallow and so on, that would have to be addressed.

This year, I raced the Summit series @ Speedworld. The only active S/SS racer I saw out there at every race, was the one who wins all the time out here. Coincidence?
He's not a Touring Pro either. In fact ,he's at work today.

Now we're going to allow deep staging again? Were you for it in '01?
I'd have to research it, but I don't have an extra 20 bucks.

Adam Strang is the F/ Stock National Record Holder.

Cool looking car you've got there,BTW. You could have gotten in some practice runs with it three weeks ago.....

Re: my opinion
 

...

Re: my opinion
 

I have a question. How does the implementation of a Pro tree cause the " touring Pro's" to get to the staging lanes in a more timely manner? And won't it just help them Don? After all, it's a 'Pro' tree and they're Pro's. Maybe we should lobby for an 'amateur' tree.

You might want to ask your doctor about Aricept.

Notice not too many 'touring pro's' are wasting their time on this thread.

Re: my opinion
 

all I can say is I must really suck...with all the huge advantages afforded me I won TWO whole races this year in stock and super stock...

Re: my opinion
 

Dan, that was part of my point earlier. Not that you suck (although Hayek probably still hates you...LOL). For all of the "supposed" advantages, the touring/Pro racers didn't even win half of any of the races run this season (Nat'l or Div). Some big advantage, huh? For all the fuss Don makes, you'd expect that those numbers should have been something like 75-80% of the races won.

Besides, Dan, you had an excuse--too busy winning in Comp. :)

Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

As far as racers hanging back I have seen alot of non touring pros that like to do that. As others have mentioned after third call and before the first pair goes down the lanes should be closed to all.
In my opinion switching to a pro tree will not hurt the touring pros in the least. No matter what you do to the tree the pros will have more hits and adjust to it faster.
Don there will never be a fair playing field as you seem to be looking for. There is no way to have a system where ever one has the same chance to win. Some people are just better racers.

John Kristianson

Re: my opinion
 

LOL @
Dan
See Don,
Good old Dan shows up with a short post and tries to confuse you.
He wins again!
Oh, Don are you really upset now that a Pro Sportsman has joined the discussion. Oh, how dare him join in with us non winning racers and be humble about it. Lets change the rules of the forum.... silly, isn't it.
The system/rules allow a person participate at what ever level they choose. Don,I think you(we)have the same opportunity as Dan, who makes the commitment of his life to be a student of the sport and earn a living and to excel by becoming a Champion. Granted his skill sets may be better and honed more than ours. Rules give us the opportunity to participate, not to equalize the skill sets we have.

Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

You need to start another thread about points.I agree with you that something should be changed.You are allowed to take your best 5 divisionals out of 8,yet some divisions only have 5 divisionals to begin with,which forces a lot of additional travel.Maybe best 5 of 6 or 7?

That being said,I still don't understand what this has to do with Pro Tree and Deep staging which started this whole thread.

Re: my opinion
 

I agree, what does the latest rant have to do with the pro tree idea?

Don, you only use bits and pieces of various posts to make your point. Mike Carr stated his stats based on two car AND/OR touring pro sportsman racers. The current points system makes it pretty fair for anyone to have an opportunity to be world champion. I went to 16 national events. Did I have an advantage over anyone in points? NO! Because you can only claim your best 3 out of the first 6 you attend!

Are you really complaining about the "touring pros" or all 2 car racers? Most 2 car guys don't come up late on purpose. Sometimes you get stuck ay the scales, fuel check, getting back to your pit to get the other car, and then hauling *** back to the lanes. HOPING you have time to collect your breath and have a few seconds to check your tires and putting a dial-in on the car!

It seems you bring up these same complaints about the touring pros every 2-3 years.....

Re: my opinion
 

First post: Deep staging and pro-tree - In Super Stock, as it is perfectly LEGAL, some of the more "seasoned" racers have built in delays which are ADJUSTABLE in their transmissions or the components surrounding their transmissions or the devices which control the vehicle reaction time. Those that don't get this or deny their useage are plain NAIVE or maybe even STUPID. Don Kennedy is fully aware of not one, but all of these methods in controlling reaction times. And so are the "touring pros" reading this.
Allowing for a pro-tree and / or deep staging would NEGATE many of these tactics. And best of all it would negate or limit these tactics for FREE.

Second post: Touring pro's - The touring pro, as pointed out below by Mark Faul has many dilemmas in getting back to the staging lanes. TRUE! But why should NHRA personnel, much less their competitor be held accountable for their issues? If I race SS, I race SS. If the pro wants to race Stock and SS (or comp or whatever), he takes on the issue, not the rest of us. Anybody that has not seen the officials accommodate these racers is BLIND.
Divisional and national event point system is FLAWED and (again) accommodates the touring pro. In the "old days" a racer claimed the race he attended AT THE GATE when he paid his money. And as today, the amount of races you could claim was dictated. If you claimed a race and failed 1st round, it directly affected your points. If you won the race, same thing. NOW you can tour the whole country and "pick and choose" the races you want to claim. Therefore, the advantage WILL ALWAYS be to the touring pro over the "local yocal" The stat Don should have posted other than that other list of BS is who attends the most races and filters out the "BAD" races. The guy that has a 40 hour a week job has almost no chance of winning a championship. Right now the system is not only structured for the full - time traveling sportsman, it actually encourages it.

Bring it back to claiming a race before racing the event and retaining the allowable divisional / national races as well as points for #1 qualifier and points for national records (remember, this is supposed to be a "performance based class") and EVERYBODY is on level playing fields.

Re: my opinion
 

The same guys will STILL win as many races and because they're so good the percentages are with them that they will get points at every race they claim.It is what it is no matter what you "welfare " racers do to throw obstacles in their way.
BTW Don,no reply on specifics of my "so called" name calling?
The match race I would pay to see is Don against the Energizer Battery rabbit.I think Don would outlast even him.

Re: my opinion
 

Welfare racers? Then tell us by whom and for what reason the old systems of deep staging was disallowed? Yes, the allowance of a racer to choose the way he controlled his own race around for 40+ years, was changed? I'd say it was orchestrated by those looking for advantages.

Welfare racers? Then tell us by whom and for what reason the old system of claiming races at the gate was disallowed? Another successful system that worked for 40+ years was changed? Again, I'd say it was orchestrated by those looking for advantages.

Will the same guys that race often still win? Of course. But the system should not cater to them. Otherwise call it a pro-class and take only the top 16 qualifiers.

Re: my opinion
 

Jeff,deepstaging was probably eliminated by NHRA because of all the bull**** that went on by both deep stagers and non deepstagers.We all know the games both sides played.
Mark Faul was correct when he said he attended 16 nationals last year,but only 5 were on the record.Maybe the guys who were beat by him in the non claimer racers should call
a Mulligan.After all he ran his points races,why should he be allowed to race anymore and beat the poor working stiffs.
I fully agree that when the lanes are closed,they're closed,no if's and's or but's.
The welfare comment was directed at Don.It seems when things get slow his "level the playing field" mode kicks in.
This whole thread is bull**** anyhow.We should be directing our energies towards NHRA
updating their payout structure and the tech dept. leadership allowing division tech to do their jobs and ENFORCE the rulebook uniformly from div. to div. without meddling from Glendora.
First priority should be you set a record you teardown before leaving the track.No teardownno record.Oh and EVERYBODY goes over the scales,running or not.Only exclusion,God forbid you crash your car.
I notice that once eliminations begin they don't usually weigh you till at least the semis.Is it so hard to weigh a car?
Sorry for getting off subject but this subject is getting stale.

Re: my opinion
 

..

Re: my opinion
 

Going to 16 races is the racers prerogative. If he/ she can afford it, both in time and money, so be it. But having the time and money to devote on such a level should be considered a professional class of racing. However one wants to define it, it should be obvious that racing 16 and claiming the 5 best is an advantage that can't be shared by the true sportsman racer. If you can accept that, then the rules are tilted to the professional racer. What is wrong with claiming the race as you entered, as it was done in the past?

Deep staging issues could have been solved by not allowing anything but a forward motion once the pre-stage beam was lit. Instead, the officials mandated no deep staging which affected the slow race cars more than anything else. The rulebook stated for years (again, probably 40+ years) that the starting line was where the racer made his best attempt at beating his opponent off the line (I can't remember the exact wording, don't want to research it for exactness but I'm sure you understand). I still say deep staging will nullify some of the advantages of delay type components engineered into an auto-trans equipped vehicle.

I agree on closing the staging lanes. I was at one national event and the staging lane director told everybody to "pull up or go back to your trailer!" And he meant it. My opponent was no where to be found. In fact I was ordered to pull forward to race. Then NHRA finally realized I had no opponent and now they wanted to find him. I sat along the water box through two rain delays (light mist). That gave all the time for the opponent to be found. Between the rain and his actions, yea, I was a little miffed to say the least. My emotions didn't matter as the track wasn't as good and I spun. In this situation, there was no reason I shouldn't have received a competition bye.

Seems in the D7 & D5 races I have attended the scales are mandatory on every competition run. But I agree, if not, it should be mandatory.

I've never seen a car set a record and not get a tear down. But I also agree on that, no tear down, no record. Same with runs that effect AHFS. You give a life changing moment to other racers, you should be checked.

I wasn't bothered by the welfare statement. I believe nothing can make all racers and their vehicles 100% on the same level. But as I've stated, right now the points system does favor those with the most amount of travel time.

Re: my opinion
 

Could you further explain what you mean by this?

Re: my opinion
 

Various methods of (easily) adjusting the transmission fluid rate of flow to add / subtract delay, various ways of adjusting the electrical components between the trans release button to the transmission to create delays.
Any of these methods are in measurable and controlled amounts. Of course like anything, practice makes perfect!
And no, I don't see any of this as being illegal. But they do ad to the complexity and cost of racing. Deep staging can negate much of this.

Re: my opinion
 

I want to comment on the issue of "hanging back" in the pits instead of coming right up when your class is called.

Most events in D1 and most National Events there are generally 100+ stockers and 80+ Super Stockers. By the time the first call goes out to come up the lanes, to the time the first pair goes down the track, it is usually 10 - 20 minutes if the race is running without a hitch..which is usually never! A full field of stock takes an hour and 15 min to an hour 30. You are almost talking about a 2 hour window!! I'm sure most of you knew that already though..

It is obvious there are some that will always be the first ones out, some come up in the middle and some will bring up the rear. Attend a few races and you should be able to figure out which drivers falls into which group. If you have to race someone who likes to hang back, plan accordingly! I'm sure most of you knew that already too..

Why should the racers who hang back be penalized because they would rather NOT sit in the lanes for an extra hour + ? A ton of things can change in that hour that will effect your on track performance. Air conditions, Track conditions lighting...etc. Sometimes you cannot make the adjustments you need to make because you are already in the lanes... again. I'm sure you guys knew that already too.

The guys in the back of the lanes don't hang back to anger their competitor or to try throw them off their game... They are in the back trying to give themselves the best shot at being prepared for the task at hand....but, I guess u knew that too...

Instead of worrying about who is bringing up the rear of the staging lanes..try working on the problem that is between your steering wheel and your seat!

Re: my opinion
 

Going to 16 races is the racers prerogative. If he/ she can afford it, both in time and money, so be it. But having the time and money to devote on such a level should be considered a professional class of racing. However one wants to define it, it should be obvious that racing 16 and claiming the 5 best is an advantage that can't be shared by the true sportsman racer. If you can accept that, then the rules are tilted to the professional racer. What is wrong with claiming the race as you entered, as it was done in the past?


Even if a racer goes to all 24 national races, how is it an advantage other than seat time and possibly making some money? Here's an extreme example for you:
I lose round 1 at the first 6 races in 2010. Then I win the next 18. My national score would be 90, because as been stated before, you count the best 3 out of the FIRST 6 you attend. Some advantage!???

Re: my opinion
 

Dave what about the guy that likes to go up right away and get going that has to race the guy who likes to hang back why is it right for him to be made to wait? Also what happens if every one desides to wait. Now they are holding up the whole show.

I think the only fair way to do it is you make the calls and give them a reasonable amount of time to get there then block the back of the lanes. In my opinion this should happen before the first pair goes down the track.

Re: my opinion
 

What is it about "Stock to the lanes...last call" that you don't understand or think you are above? Is that another hour in the air conditioned RV you deserve or what?

I guess I failed to mention all the laggards who have the advantage of analyzing the cars going down the track for an hour or so in search of changing weather conditions, traction issues, etc.

I have yet to witness less than adequate warning to get your car to the lanes.
First car does a burnout and I would be roping off the lanes if it were my call.

Re: my opinion
 

It's not right....but it's also not wrong. This is racing. Not a friendly game of cards. Some racers aren't out here to appease others and make friends. Some are out here to WIN and they will do anything within the rulebook to give themselves the best shot at winning. As long isn't a rule in place stating you must be in the lanes by x amount of time.. It will continue to be done this way. It's smart.

Re: my opinion
 

See above

Re: my opinion
 

It's up to the lane director and he may bite one day.

Re: my opinion
 

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Anthem, Arizona
Posts: 1,022 Re: my opinion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is it about "Stock to the lanes...last call" that you don't understand or think you are above? Is that another hour in the air conditioned RV you deserve or what?

Boy we're really splitting hairs now.I know some that can't race their way out of a paper bag that have nice cushy motorhomes with (gasp) air conditioning.The guys who win don't
all wait till the very end,at least here in Div 1.

I guess I failed to mention all the laggards who have the advantage of analyzing the cars going down the track for an hour or so in search of changing weather conditions, traction issues, etc.

I'm not exactly a heavy hitter but I do like to get to the lanes after at least 20-25 pairs go down and try to evaluate as well as I can what the conditions are.

You seem to be wandering into the "Let's see how I can tilt the table" syndrome.And as
mentioned numerous times you haven't gone down the track in how long?That being said you do have the right to your opinion though it doesn't seem to carry much weight.
I hope you do get the car out next year,we do need some more AMC's out there.

Re: my opinion
 

I'm with Jeff on this one... On a lesser scale at our track but I have friends who run the lanes. It's always the same people who think they don't have to show up in time or be prepared to race once they get there. This practice is discourteous to the racer you are paired with, holds up the program and causes a huge jamb in the lanes while the track official is trying to locate straglers. It may help your race program to be last up but someone has to be first and there is no reason for everyone to not fall in line unless you have a mechanical problem.

Re: my opinion
 

I should clarify the wording in my post from page 10. I don't personally have a problem with anyone and when they show up to the lanes. Unless it was a problem in regards to slowing the running of the event. If it were holding up the show, whether a round or a pair in that round, then the rule could be implemented. Especially if there is inclimate weather approaching. I prefer going early most of the time (at least in qualifying), but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Hey Don, no response to my earlier thread? Owned?