Re: Black Tuesday?
 

if they leave the trigger point where it is but lower the indexes .3 all theyre doing is giving the new bogus fords and chryslers more room to slay the traditional cars without running themselves out of a class. they dont have a 6# stock class and some of them will probably be in the middle classes they dont want them all in AA right off the bat . by the way evan i dont see how rain shortened youre qualifying at e-town drc has 3rd session sat morning as usual guess like been said on here before different rules for different folks.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Well since Im retired and only work my job now because I like the extra $$$$$. I would do it with a minimum of help but Im an "OUTCAST" a "Black Sheep" and have bad mouthed both associations so much that they would never use me..... lol The problem is NHRA and IHRA have a few good men but they have their hands tied and most still have real jobs and work for a living so going to all of the races is tough. To save money the associations do not use who they could to do the job. Most cant take off and travel the circut and be gone all summer to do what it takes to do the job right. I remember going to the Bowling Green Sports Nationals in 1978 with my SS/IA 68 Camero. I got down to the class final against Phil Hardee (Warren Engine) and ALMOST beat him. Lost by .03 I think and we ran with both of our feet jamed to the radiator. None of this shut off junk. So I didnt get to run the eliminator but you know what.....Just by beating some of the other cars in the class and runner uping to Phil with my home built car (except for the 4 link-Ken Keir's first job) and my home built engine that I did 100% myself I felt like I had won the world. I felt GOOD about myself, the race, the sport, and made a good friend to this day....Phil Hardee. It was a 16 hour tow for me and a great experience. I ran the Gators (14 hr tow)that year but didnt do as well....George Duff out ran me but again I was glad to be there and I was learning. I dont care what these guys on here say because the way they qualify to get in a race and most fast cars (not all of them) are bogus in one way or another anyway unless they are weak on the HP rating or index.....its all a joke today. Its more like a high dollar bracket race today. The win money and contengencies isnt worth the money and effort anymore to do what most are doing and spending today. Its an ego trip. Im off here as I have hijacked the thread and didnt mean to do so. The point is I would rather race all out and get beat (if the competition was found legal like in the old days.) than play "footsie" with the gas peddle. Get rid of the AFHS. Sorry.........

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

....and its not Tuesday yet

I bet the bitchen will really take off when things are in print, there is heat in the kitchen!!!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Two words..........top stock!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Ed, who obviously DIDN'T go to school in Arkansas, or he wouldn't write things like, "If you'd quite smoking ..." QUITE smoking???
and,

ED, who asked, "Who do you think cam e up with some of this stuff before it was legal ?"
uh, "do you think cam e up"... "Cam e up" isn't really the way that should look, is it, oh learned one????????????

ED sed: "Some where great drivers...." "Somewhere, over the rainbow???"

ED also sed,"some made a living build this stuff..." WTF is thet supposed to mean??? Do you mean "building this stuff???" SAY WHAT YOU MEAN!!!
Jeez....

And you have the hubris (look it up) to criticize MY education??? LOL!!!

As far as the content goes...

Bill replied, "Can you be more specific? Pointing fingers at a group of people, and not specifying what you're talking about (WHAT illegal parts????) makes you sound like you either don't know what you're talking about, or you don't have the balls to name names and the parts they introduced that were/are illegal." Which is it????

The two items (the disguised 904 and the too-soon 429/C-4) I referred to were run by Sportsman racers who raced maybe 10-12 times a year. Nowhere near the amount of runs to qualify them as "Pro Sportsmen."

If you don't get a lot more specific, I'll just have to assume that you're just blowing smoke... again. Exactly what ARE you smoking, anyway???

How about it, genius????? Got the gonads to make good on your accusations, or will we just have to chalk it up as another of your poorly-written flights from reality???

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Here we go again.Ed has a CLASS CAR.YOU are a bracket racer.You do not have a
S/SS car.Any bull**** you post has no bearing on you,but it might for anyone here who runs a class car.
Go on the bracket racing section and dazzle them with your advanced education and
spelling prowess.
I'm back in black...........................

WILL SOMEONE EXPLAIN Black Tuesday?
 

Ok, I have TRIED to follow this thread.....

Will someone PLEASE explain

1) Is this Accurate , or is it a rumor ?
2)What EXACTLY does it mean and how / when will it be in effect ?
3)Can someone give an actual example of the application to a class.

Maybe Im just tired, confused or stupid......

We will be fielding an E/SA and A/SA car this year and I would like to know , WHAT EXACTLY this crap means....lol....I am new to Class racing, and well a bit braindead from running a monster build cycle.

Cheers

Chris

Re: WILL SOMEONE EXPLAIN Black Tuesday?
 

......well, I guess you said it.....and to explain, 'its a waiting game'

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Chris this thread is just 100% bull****,speculation and wishful thinking.Until someone
posts a link to NHRA that makes a rule change just treat it like reading the National Enquirer,pure entertainment.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Now over 12,000 hits! WOW!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

ED SED, "I'm sorry for the typo it's a real problem and someday I may learn to type maybe not but one thing is clear you will be a dumb ***** hillbilly SOB till you die ."

Bill responds, "Ed, as usual, it wasn't "a typo," but MANY typos, written while accusing ME of having an inferior education. Here's another one: (where is the period and capitalization when you begin the next sentence??? ("sorry for the typo it's a real problem and...").)
That doesn't even qualify as a "comma splice".... there's NO COMMA!!!

Did you look up "hubris"? Was your picture there????? LOL!!!

ED SED, "but one thing is clear you will be a dumb ***** hillbilly SOB till you die ."

If that's true, why is it that YOU'RE the one who talks (writes) like one????

Did your "superior education" not acquaint you with the semicolon? That sentence REALLY needs a semicolon after "one thing is clear"....

How did you get out of the seventh grade without knowing that??? Commas should be after "dumb ***," and "hillbilly," too. Oops; maybe you never GOT out of the 7th grade............

ED, SED, "If your were younger there might be a chance that you could pull your head out of your ***** and see what's going on but it seems like time has passed for you . Have a nice day". Needs a comma after "younger," too...

But, that is a typical response from you, ED. You think that if you are obnoxious enough with your character assassination, and the childish insults that you hurl as a last-ditch attempt to direct attention away from the facts, you come out looking like a winner.

Make that weiner.

You accused some of the leaders of our sport of being responsible for cheating, and now, think you can sneak away into the night, unscathed, because you failed to address the issue of standing behind what you said... you never said WHAT they did, nor WHO did it. Even though, I ASKED YOU POINT BLANK WHAT THEY DID AND WHO THEY WERE!

Your response was to kill the messenger; ignoring the question and attempting to change the subject.

You just sling mud.... irresponsibly.

Everybody knows that. You make it pretty obvious.

You need to apologize to those people if you want any credibility on this board.

That kind of behavior will get you nowhere, here.

Be a MAN and "own" your accusations. Anything less just shows how immature your thought process is.

Have a more Grammatically sophisticated day...... :)

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Lowering indexes will do nothing but reduce car count. End of story.

As far as Stockers running Super Stock. How is it the same motor combo could possibly be less in S/S??? That's the issue not indexes.

Raise the trigger. Don't eliminate guys that want to be out there racing.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

The OTHER "ED" (is this a chain?) SEZ: "Here we go again. Ed has a CLASS CAR. YOU are a bracket racer.You do not have a S/SS car.Any bull**** you post has no bearing on you,but it might for anyone here who runs a class car.
Go on the bracket racing section and dazzle them with your advanced education and
spelling prowess.


ED, you know... paranoia will destroy-ya.... :)

Well, thanks, anyway, for that (limiting my influence to "bull****," which I never post.)

You've proven that you're incapable of understanding a simple rule change like the worse red light rule (which you've demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you simply don't have a CLUE about what it can do for you), a pretty good indication that you are not going to be too good at separating the truth from the B.S.

Did you and O'Brien go to school together??? He insults me over and over with low-brow criticism of MY education, then YOU accuse me of having "your advanced education and spelling prowess." Which one of you is 100-percent wrong???

Do you condone (look it up) his accusations, and refusing to validate anything he said by changing the subject (like someone else I know,) whenever he's asked exactly who he was talking about, and what they were alleged to be doing that was illegal?

No guts to stand behind his accusations. You think that's okay?

It wouldn't surprise me.

For the tenth time; try to understand this: This forum is for anyyone who signs up to post here.
There is ANOTHER FORUM for active racers, and the posts on that forum are limited to people who have a permanent number.

Go over there on that forum and whine about people posting things that " have no bearing on you,but it might for anyone here who runs a class car."

I WISH NHRA paid one iota of attention to me.... but you and I both know, they DON'T. Never have; never will.

Do YOU think that if I bought a class car and started racing it, I'd gain 70 I.Q. points, and suddenly be A-OK to post here??? LOL!

You are not a moderator; stop trying to act like one!

You just don't get it, do you??????? This forum was created for people like me.

Get used to it...

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Toby and Jody: You are exactly right on every posting you have made on this particular thread! If there is a problem it is with some of the HP factors.... Not the index. Example: My 71 Demon 340 is 314HP in Stock and only 283HP in Superstock which is 31HP in a small block....That means several classes lower in Superstock No wonder it runs well under in Superstock! This is a factor problem not a index problem! Maybe every stock driver who runs SS should go to swapmeet and buy a cheap aftermarket intake and then toss it on prior to Tech.... would that make everyone happy? MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!! Irving Family Racing...3 Dumbass Welfare Hillbilly Stock Racers . See ya all at the finish stripe!!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Jody, you are exactly right! If under todays system I can run 3 tenths under my index and all indexes are lowered 3 tenths at some point, then at that point I am not able to race competively expecially at a bad air track. (won't be able to run the index but will have to dial the index).

Index lowering example simplified: If one racer can run 1.20 under with todays index system and another racer can run 1.00 under, IF the indexes are lowered by 3 tenths the 1.20 under becomes .90 under and the 1.00 under becomes .70 under. What is the difference? They are both seperated by 3 tenths. ......Ok here is the difference to me. If the 1.20/.90 under car is way underfactored and already 300+ pounds heavy or sandbagging and the 1.00/.70 car is somewhere close factor wise and running on the minimum weight all out it is still BS whether the indexes are reduced by 1 tenth or 1 second. The problem lies in the factoring and that alone. The 1.20/.90 car will loose weight either from removing weight or switching to a body style that is easier to take weight out of and still be 1.20 under or maybe more. And the correct weight 1.00./.70 car is farther behind because he was correctly factored and ran his car all out. Looks like the correctly factored car looses big time in the index changing game.

Don't take everything you read on here as truth. I have (a number larger than 2 and not more than 10) customers cars as I type that can run 1.15 to 1.20 under and are OVER 400 lbs. heavy for their natural class. They are also underfactored by at least 35 hp. No problem. A few of them are not willing to do the carbon fiber body panels in the new style body scam and a few have low milage older body styles that they don't want to acid out so they are naturally somewhat heavy. They are perfectly legal, just quite a bit underfactored (due partially to the cylinder head rules that were put in place in the past few years). These are not "cutting edge cars" meaning there are still a couple tenths left in them.

Billy has made some of the most intelligent posts on this subject so far.

Tech has been beaten down and over-ruled so many times in recent years that it seems like its easier to allow it and make a rule change than to give illegal cars a vacation. I like X-Techmans ideas alot. Many wouldn't like my opinion: Run em' off the index or record (I don't care) and may the best builder/tuner/racer win. Still correct factoring would be the key. Many say that this would be the downfall of S/SS like in the past. But the only reason car counts dropped years ago was a lack of factoring and imput from big money. Basically selective factoring and favors....same as we have today. Also that was the era when racers decided that they would rather buy hp (and chassis) than to try to do it themselves. A lack of work ethic that is present today more than ever.

Somewhere in this thread it was said that "anybody should be able to build an .8 - 1.00 under S/SS with todays rules". I don't think that is as easy with a close to correctly factored combo. Not impossible by any means but not quite as easy as that post sounded. Its pretty easy to buy one however, if the budget allows. Maintaining it is a whole different topic.

Do whatever with the indexes and rules that you like........quite a few are loosing interest every day in this type of racing due to incompetent rule making and selective or just plain lazy factoring. I will leave you with this: Everybody loves the underdog and also very few have the mechanical ability to spot a bunny combo for what it is. However, I can quarantee if you can properly seal rings or build a really good q-jet that you aren't impressed in the least at the underfactored top ten car regardless of the index.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

SS Engine Guy: Very well said and clearly explained! Ditto's:)

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

GTX John and SS Engine Guy ... x2!

Then again, this whole discussion is like most others. The vast majority of people fall either on the extreme left or extreme right of the argument, and no amount of explanation from either side is going to change the mind of the other, regardless of who is "right".

It's amazing to me how so many things are just a verbal hand grenade these days. With something as serious as the topics at hand, why is there no real analysis from the get-go?
1) Is there a problem?
2) If yes, what is the problem?
3) Propose solutions
4) What are the effects, short term and long term of those proposals?
5) What are the unintended side effects, short term and long term?
6) Does the reward outweigh the risk?

etc, etc...

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Michael, the people who make these decisions don't have a clue.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

And that constitutes a big part of the problem!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

And that constitutes another part of the problem!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

SS Engine Guy has nailed the heart of the problem... If NHRA is going to continue to factor (which I think is a good way to equalize the cars, given the CORRECT factors for each combo), they need to man up and get it done right to eliminate "sweet" combinations and take the penalties that exist for some off the table. (428 Pontiac gets less hp than 455 with same heads and cam??? 455 Olds gets same hp with or without RamAir??? - soft factors for Ford CJ and some smallblock Chevy combos?? there are other examples, but you get the point)

They also need to be more responsive to input from respected racers... maybe a REAL S/SS consulting board consisting of a half dozen or so racers/builders in each division?? You can let the racers vote on thier own representatives, then let the tech directors and racer's advisory board hash this stuff out. I know some of this is supposed to be going on already, but the system seems broken... there is also a lack of transparency.

I think these changes would help to increase car counts, and promote a little more trust in NHRA's relationship with Sportsman racers. Some good ideas could come from this arrangement as well.... a substantive and reasonable exchange of ideas between NHRA and racers is needed (where have we heard THAT before??)

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Ed you are right on the money. If NHRA doesn't survive the top guys will just walk away with more money than they came with.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

I have been hit with 17 horsepower in the last two years, because of this I can no longer even think about going to INDY. I can not afford to to get a 65,000 dollar colbalt, pro trans etc. If it takes lowering the index by 3 tenths, to keep the big dogs from getting me more horsepower, then i am all for it. The big money will always be fast, I am just running out of lead.This is just my opion, and I respect the rest of yours.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Not even mentioning this huge revision, if Stock and Super Stock are performance based classes, why don't those who feel so strongly push for all "heads-up" runs off of the index?

You know, like Top Stock, first car across the finish line wins?
Your head start comes from the index, no dial ins. First or worst red light.
Now that would be performance based. Anything else is dial in, just that the guys with the slower class cars get shafted because they are the only ones running heads up....

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

That was done in the mid 70's and it didnt work....the same 2 or 3 cars (racers) won all of the events. One was a dollar ninety eight 63 Pontiac station wagon in Super Stock. How would you like being out HP factored against your $100,000 + Cobalt? Stock was no better.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Marvin-

The factoring will never make everyone happy. You know why? Because their will always be the spenders to go fast, and the ones that just want to be able to run under the index.

Their is nothing wrong with this scenario. But when NHRA decides to do something, it effects everyone, slow or fast. The way the AHFS is now, is better than it use to be. I absolutely hated the fact that the human element was dishing out horsepower. If NHRA didn't like you, you got h.p. If "you made it look too easy" you received h.p.. At least people know how the h.p. is dealt now.

I thought something was being done when we elected the Sportsman Racing Committee. That lasted a long time, didn't it? NHRA doesn't want us, at least at National events. They're trying to do less policing...i.e. lowering indexes and raising triggers.

Now we have racer's complaining about the factors. The racers made these factors (most of them) the way they are. When I started racing the 350/295-300 was rated at 310 in SS. It's now 327, after three years. When I was racing stock with a '97 Camaro, LT-1, it was 275. I think now it's 341. This is all done by the racers.

Yes, NHRA has it's faults, lots of them. If you follow any of the Pro's, they also aren't happy all of the time.

I friend once told me a pretty good line...Don't hate the player, hate the game! Sometimes that's all this is, a game.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Thanks TB, that is my point EXACTLY!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Is that Jack Mullins you are talking about?



That was done in the mid 70's and it didnt work....the same 2 or 3 cars (racers) won all of the events. One was a dollar ninety eight 63 Pontiac station wagon in Super Stock. How would you like being out HP factored against your $100,000 + Cobalt? Stock was no better.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Yep. Dont get me wrong though.....I thought it was cool when he was slaying the "Big Dogs"....lol. The program just didnt work.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

In "My Opinion" :

Several "Changes" from NHRA helped save Stock and Super Stock racing .

The implantation of The Index system to create a level playing field.

The almost perfect altitude correction factor to the indexes to help level the playing field

The implantation of The GT classes in Super Stock to create some new classes race on Sunday sell on Monday

The involvement of the factories in the GT Classes when the "new " GT classes were started

The automatic factoring system overhaul to help level the playing field

Allowing the hemis cars to have their own class to create some excitement of fans of these cars

Having Chrysler and Ford be involved in Stock and Super Stock to insure the future of Super Stock and Stock racing with factory backing .


I am sure there are others these just came to my mind of which all have came from NHRA to create a level playing field for their customers . If anyone wants to belittle my comments or call me names or disagree simply e-mail me and at donkennedy1@cox.net . this way would be more effective for you lol

But if you can discuss in a Manner that shows you have some class simply discuss the subject in a civil way Post on this web site .

Thanks
Don

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

It's tuesday, and it isn't black!!!!!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

wow 12,000 hits and very little intelligence wasted on the posts...

billy nees is right...99% of enhancements havent helped him (or me)
terry bell is right...class winners should get to race, if only them so be it... more odd cars !

and once again nhra doesnt care...so YAC is right !

sounds like a broken record... just like me for over 5 years...
Automatic Help For Slugs CAN NOT and WILL NOT ever work...we manipulate the input #
and lower the indexes -.50 > why toby lang ? how many people would watch baseball if the wall was at 150 feet ? since the enhancements the game is STUPID easy !

just had to post on this thread... too much fun here !

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Absolutely Agree! BUT NHRA has to stop with the *** kissing!

It's hard to disagree with your list Don but you're brushing with pretty broad strokes!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

I didn't adequately answer this the other night.

Last question first: No, just two. NHRA has already said you can't set a record or win class if you're not 5 under. They'll gladly take your money though. Why else for the double standard? Lower them .5 then.
Remember, it's a performance eliminator. We must retain heads up runs in the eliminator,at all cost.

Toby asked; what's the difference in my scenario. The difference is , Mr -.06 won't be able to win an eliminator, as well he shouldn't.

Will lowering the indexes reduce car counts? Don't know. No way to measure it, as they're already losing cars. I doubt it will though. Most cars can run 5 under with a little tune up. Maybe it will stimulate the industry a little.

Anyway, if they do raise the triggers, it certainly benefit the new cars from Ford and Chrysler. Coincidence? I doubt that ,too.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Mark, I just did the math. Moving the indexes hurts WAY more people than changing the trigger helps!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Has anyone seen the 3 thenths reduction anywhere in black and white yet?

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

I was told by NHRA at the PRI show that there would be a .3 reduction and it would be up on the web site Tuesday.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Its Tuesday....been looking and havent seen a thing yet.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Maybe their going to postpone until.....black Friday!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

....it has been so quiet at NHRA, someone said you could hear a turd drop...


EDIT: maybe that was a tear drop