Re: Index Change
 

Angelo, you may have hit the nail on the head with that statement.

Re: Index Change
 

In the grand scheme of things, this will only hurt the marginal cars close to or not that far under. This will actually be good for the fast cars as they now have an extra .15 to play with. (1.25 trigger plus -.3 index = 1.55 under old index vs. 1.40 under old index before changes).

Does anyone have any insight into whether IHRA will follow suit????

Re: Index Change
 

Why can't you?

Re: Index Change
 

I doubt it very seriously .

Re: Index Change
 

I don't see this as a bad thing. I think for the most part we all can still agree that Stock and S/S are performance oreinted classes right? Yes there are some racers who are directly affected by this if they could run at the .3 under. I know that trying to find ET is both costly and time consuming, however how many racers started running Stock or S/S were unaware of this? As with all sports of any type those with the most money can almost always stay ahead, I think that cannot be denied. There seems to be quite a few racers out there with the resources and the willingness to spend it. Does that hurt the sport? It's hard to say for sure but my initial thoughts are yes, If and when this "class" of racer tires of the financial outlay involved verses the return where does that leave the rest of the racers?I've read all of the posts on this and find it hard to really argue with what most have had to say,however as you would expect how the particular racer is affected by this change seems to dictate their response. I've read alot of racers posts of soft indexes, under rated combos ect. which may all be true, but can you imagine the uproar if just a few combos or indexes were hit?All in all basically to me they,ve done nothing more than change the amount under of the qualifying sheet.Joe

Re: Index Change
 

The reason I can`t Mark is my car is only about .25 under now. I ran better than .30 under twice this past season,but never at a Combo or NHRA event. I know,I know,work on it,blah,blah,blah. Fact of the matter is,if I`m going to spend money on that thing,it won`t be so I can run low 16`s up here,I`m going to put a small block in it and run Pro or Super Pro. I`m tired of spending money on a slow car and it`s time to pick up the pace. The only reason I continued to stick with the slow car deal was because of Stock. So there you have it. I can walk away proud of my accomplishments in the class with no regrets.

Re: Index Change
 

Boy am I glad I ripped up my NHRA renewal bills when they came in the mail. Being treated like a deadbeat criminal at my last LODRS gave me a push out the door to the IHRA, but this is like slamming the door on my *** on the way out.

I hope IHRA doesn't copycat the change, but even if they do a change of scenery would be nice.

Re: Index Change
 

Lane, I've got nothing against not spending money. That's why I do everything myself.
Let's be realistic here though. You've had that combo for the better part of 20 years now and it has the potential of being number one qualifier. A half second under the old index shouldn't be that hard to achieve ,without spending a big pile of money.
You're just not going to get a lot of sympathy on here with that program.
Same thing goes for the guys trying to run a 5.0 Mustang with the stock short block.
Sometimes you just have to open the wallet a little.
It killed me to have to buy a torque plate for a 2300 Ford for $400 ,but nobody in the Valley had one, so I had no choice, to get it right.
Like I said ,I'm sympathetic about having to spend a bunch of money on these things, but it never was intended to be Affirmative Action Drag Racing.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Re: Index Change
 

I haven`t posted on this thread looking for sympathy. I was just posting how I felt. Once the dragster deal for me ended a couple of years ago I was ok with just running the Skyhawk,but it`s getting a bit old now. I may change my mind,you just never know?

Re: Index Change
 

Angelo, I agree 100% also, but as you already know, the guys who knew how to play the game before..............still do.....

Have a great Holiday

Wade

Re: Index Change
 

This by far the biggest joke That has ever happend in NHRA. The people that are making these rules have no clue what they are doing to the futher of stock and super stock! How many young people are entering these classes? NONE !!! I'm with them time for two 60mm turbos and some mini tubes f this s@#$!!!!

Re: Index Change
 

I know a lot of you guys don't like "hood scoop" cars but this really hurts those of us on a tight budget. The comp...uhhh I mean new style modified cars w/ the $50,000 engines have already dropped some of the indexs and now another .30 is going to finish off some of us who don't have the funding to keep up w/ these guys. Bristol would now be out of the question for me unless that's an altitude adjusted track (not sure). Could save me some money, but regardless if I race any NHRA I will be at the very bottom of the sheet. The question is...will this change bring in more cars than it will run off? It appears to me that they need more cars as they are now opening up nationals to more classes so this decision doesn't make good financial sense. Just my .02

Re: Index Change
 

Tracy, while I'll concede that there are some of those $50,000 dollar engines out there beating up some indexes, I doubt it's the norm. I don't have $50 large in my entire operation. Now I'm certainly no genious and I've been able to run under with my junk, of course that's most likely due to the "soft" indexes. So now I go from having a second under car to a .7 under car.....so what? As stated by a few on here , yes a few racers are gonna be affected in a bad way by this however they do have a choice, step up or move on.Not trying to be mean about it but that's just the hand that's been dealt. If I were in that spot I'd have to weigh my options and make a decision based on what I was willing and able to spend. Joe

Re: Index Change
 

Isn't this where the indexes were about 20 years ago? I remember NHRA softened them up somewhere in that time frame. Now they are putting them back where they were before?

Jerry
#1710

Re: Index Change
 

Hmmmmm a Challnger Drag Pak with a completed motor, and a HOOD scoop, was 35 out the door, half of that is engine cost, damm near.

Takes another 15 to make it ready, but thats 50 in the whole car. Its amazing (other than our cage and suspension work we paid to have done, were doing it all ourselves.....

Still cheaper than an SCJ by a bunch.

Re: Index Change
 

Lane,if your car is .25 under can't you write a letter with documentation to get some HP relief?Worked for me 10 years ago.

Re: Index Change
 

Senerio:

Racer A has a legal 1.00 under really nice, close to correctly factored race car.

Racer B has a grey area 1.30 under really nice, no where close to correctly factored car.

Index drops 3 tenths.

Racer A now has a legal .7 under really nice, close to correctly factored race car.

Racer B now has a grey area 1.30 under really nice, still no where close to correctly factored car. (He threw out the weight, moved the timing, quit lifting to gain his 3 tenths back).

There used to be 3 tenths seperating the two cars. Now there are 6 tenths seperating the two cars. Which car would you buy if the prices were the same? How much is a 1.30 under car vs. a .7 under car in terms of $100 dollar bills? How much money and time (which is money) would it take to pick up six tenths or even 3 tenths?
In my opinion this BS "rule of the week" just made the legal, close to correctly factored car worth less (not worthless). This rule just took money out of pockets in a number of areas. It has devalued alot of the combos out there with a pencil. It has given a racer a "need" to cheat to protect his investment when correctly factoring combos would have solved many problems. It has given a reason for "protecting" your combo, now more than before.

And while I'm at it I'll be damned if I can understand why fees go up all around and I can't even get a hard copy rulebook out of the deal. If you are that close to broke you might as well go ahead and fold. But we all know that isn't the case.............

Re: Index Change
 

Ther's many different scenario's about this deal....but dont forget that this racing has come to look more and more stupid from year to year...almost like comp with lifting at the 1000...that had to be adressed in some way.. IMO.

Re: Index Change
 

I understand exactly what you're saying Joe, but it's sad that a lower budget racer should be forced to "move on"? As I stated before, NHRA's profits/car counts are down is this going to bring in more participants or force some to "move on"?
Personally, I will still go to whatever races I can get into and be competitive enough to run the index...until the index gets hit again.

Re: Index Change
 

Sounds like a sweet car...is this a stocker or a superstocker?

Re: Index Change
 

I agree 100% that the lifting needed to go a long time ago. Incrementals should have been used and HP delt out accordingly. Alot of it could have been handled by just looking at the scale sheets.

Re: Index Change
 

let's use this for an example

Sorensen is capable of 9.60's in AA/SA, i'm assuming that's all its got. That's damn fast, and almost 1.30 under the old index. He can't go any faster than that under the new index, it's now 1.00 under.

Hajek or any of the other CJ's were pedaling the cars and still got a 1.40 under bump in A/SA making them AA/SA only cars now. The CJs can now go 9.35 in stock eliminator before getting instant HP. 9.35!!!!!!!

Sorensen had a prayer in a heads up under the old index against a CJ trying to protect his factor. now the CJ can have a coke and a smile on the starting line, and just blow by him at 1000', there is nothing ANY combo can do with the CJ's now, they have been given more room to hang it out and make everyone else look bad.

Re: Index Change
 

Very good example,but this is more common in a lot of classes than you might realize.
Its not just a CJ issue.

Re: Index Change
 

Ed,a letter is a consideration,but we`ll see. The last time I wrote a HP reguest to lower my engine combo,the email was misplaced/lost,and I had to resubmit. Finally one year after I sent the original,it was a no. We`ll see what I decide to do. Lane

Re: Index Change
 

Maybe just a way to get them out of A and B so now all the old muscle cars are back to being fastest in A, B, and C, just a thought.

Re: Index Change
 

Stocker.....

Id like a superstocker one, but I really want a nice FED for later next year, when I get one or a vintage flopper Ill be happy. After seeing the Super Stock Challenger Mike up at MPR did, up close and personal, now all I need is a body...(and Ive got a line on one) as Mike suggested its kinda dumb *** to cut on one of the real DP Challenger so much. Im not too much of a collector, but in this case weve come to agree (my dads initial reaction was well if we get bored in Stock well have Mike make it a SuperStocker) But since its his game, Im just in charge of building the car, driving it, finding a good driver for Nationals, getting sponsors, handling the reciepts, making the decisions on the components, rule compliance, and all the rest.....wait a minute....Dad get up off your butt :) (Just kidding, Ive usually got him running here and there for things as hard to find as the Holy Grail)

Cheers

Chris

Re: Index Change
 

Wow, now this is the best Christmas gift ever! Thanks NHRA! :mad:

Re: Index Change
 

Lane,what might of helped me was that Skelly was the man then,unfortunatly not now.

Re: Index Change
 

I disagree, I disagree, I disagree.

I think the Challengers will run them down, or we wouldnt have gone with one. We are mopar guys but were also horsepower whores, we would run anything that could be at the top. On the 10th or so pass of one of the few Challengers that have been actually tracked it ran a 9.7? There is easily another 3 or 4 tenths there I hope.

It wont be as easy as spinning a super faster but hey.....weve also been taking about fielding an SCJ, in 11 if it proves out the Chally cant compete in A or AA . The chally will then (with a 5.7) be a DEF car then or if the index changes CDE. Then what will happen is everyone with an SCJ will need to put another 20 in their car to make it a real competitive racer, some already have, and Id be lying if I knew how many, my bet is with a car that fast outta the box the first thing you dont usually do is all the hard expensive stuff. AND there are a lot of guys with the cars that will look to the super for quick hp, 1 guy runs too little pulley and bang theyre all hit.

The fact that you can buy a BIW from Ford makes it intersting. Dodge you cant that I am aware of.

Re: Index Change
 

I agree with Stock 608 even though my car won't be affected quite as hard as his will (except between June & August). I just checked qualifying best times for my car (best ever was -.898 under at Tucson in March '08, and worst ever was -.395 @ Jegs Pacific Sportsnats off of old indexes), and as long as I don't race a so-called sea leveled track (such as Firebird Intl. Raceway, or Fontana, which are both over 1100ft), I should at least be able to run a few hundreth's under...but I can surely kiss winning class out of the window.

I don't know what combo he has, but some combos such as Lane Webers V6 Skyhawk, or my V6 Cavalier don't have the luxury of a class we can drop down to...the next classes down for down for both of our cars are exclusively for 4cyl engines, so Ed. F. this should answer one of the questions you had for "The Hawk"...I can deal with it, but this sucks!!!

More reason why I wish either I.H.R.A., or the re-birth of the A.H.R.A. will make their way out west too!!!

Re: Index Change
 

Mark, I hope you noticed the fillers I added to your comments on the above thread that's highlighted....

I'll agree with you on this though Mark...Lane, "Good luck, whatever you decide to do"!!!

Re: Index Change
 

Not to change or high jack the thread, but the AHRA rules are posted. From what I read, stock fuel tanks and street equipment must be retained in stock. Looks like both stock and super stock rules are different.
http://www.ahradragracing.com/STOCK.html
http://www.ahradragracing.com/RULES.html

Re: Index Change
 

Ok, well at least IHRA isn't like that....yet???

Re: Index Change
 

If they are going to do this. Why not make the announcement in summer of 09. That way people like myself (the low buck slow stocker) can try and get something figured out. saying effective in 2010. So come time for pomona we would actually be under the index. I have planned on going to the 50th winters for almost a year. Saved, time off, entered, and now this with only about a month before... Someone mentioned earlier about not having enough young stk and ss racers, well i am a young stock racer who can barely afford to race, but i am out doing what i love. But what i love just became a lot harder now. Santa all i want is 2 tents for Christmas!

Re: Index Change
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone View Post
Lane, You've had that combo for the better part of 20 years now and it has the potential of being number one qualifier.

Mark, I don't recall ever seeing a combo such as Lane's ever being number one qualifier, and unless one slipped by me, I'm going back to the '80's with how long I've followed Stock Eliminator (especially the national events)? Am I missing someone who raced a car engine combo like his? Who???

>>>>> Don Sarret , Neil Smedley 77 Pontiac 8-9 years ago. 1.40- 1.50 under

Larry Munk , home built ,budget car 78 Le Mans 7-8 tenths under.



A half second under the old index shouldn't be that hard to achieve ,without spending a big pile of money.

Mark, your key statement was "A half second under the old index"! Now that the old index is just that "old", it will take money and lots of it to get .3 sec.... If I want to get that .3 back in my car, I'm going to have to get headers for it, and thanks to Hooker not making them anymore for my car, I'm going to have to part with $1,000 (hardly what I'd consider a small pile of money)!

>>>>> Gary, nobody made headers for my 84 Citation either. I called up Hooker and got a bunch of components for their S 10 headers. Welded them together ,and picked up about 4-5 tenths. That was the first complete set of headers I ever built and it wasn't all that hard. Cost? under $200.
Nobody made a decent set for my 350 Buick /Omega. I bought a flange set from TA and some split flow collectors and u bends. About $300 .
I know what you're going to say next, but if can't build them or pay someone else to,
you'll just have to call 1-800-CRY-NHRA


You're just not going to get a lot of sympathy on here with that program.

Lane, you'll get sympathy from me because I haven't forgotten the '06 Mile High Nat's, that only thanks to you was I able to get my car to run the index (which was key in my beating Tony Hernandez in rd. 3, with my index plus .004 "16.664").

Somtimes you have to open the wallet a little.

Yeah Mark you can open it as long as you have some money in it???

>>>> My meager income never even makes it to MY wallet.

it never was intended to be Affirmative Action Drag Racing.

No it wasn't intended to be that, but it shouldn't be a rich person only sport (which it seems like that's what it's becoming).

>>>>> That surely doesn't describe me, but take a look in my backyard on Google Earth, and see if you see any HIGH DOLLAR number 1 qualifying Stockers there.

I wonder how our dearly beloved (and now even more sadly missed) NHRA founder "Wally Parks" would feel about these changes that's happened since his unfortunate passing??? He wasn't rich, but he associated his-self with similarly minded people who shared a passion for "full throttle acceleration", and thru support of others his ideal became a reality for all of us to enjoy. Sadly corporate greed has settled in over recent years, and those of us who payed our entry fees and attended the races, are being stomped on and squeezed out like forgotten step-children!!!


Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

>>>>>That goes for you too, and happy holidays.

Re: Index Change
 

I ,like Ryan (stock 608) am a 'young gun' (he's younger than me, I'm 34) I can afford to race STOCK only because I am self employed and 'sponsor' myself. This change with a stroke of a pen makes my car useless as it was good for -0.25. yea yea yea I know 'work on it' . Mid week I found out my combo went from a 300 horse rated at 290 to a 285 rating GREAT! i can lose 57.5 pounds ,to finding out my slow car is non qualifier everywhere. How does the nhra figure they are going to get new (young) blood excited about class racing when the current crop of drivers are questioning if it is even worth it to compete themselves? I was already planning on hemorraging my wallet for the annual off season update was kinda hoping to jump up to a -1.00 or -0.90 car for 2010, i guess it will be a -0.70 or -0.60 .......................makes the 'investment' easy to explain to my pregnant wife!

Re: Index Change
 

[QUOTE=Dion Hildebrandt; How does the nhra figure they are going to get new (young) blood excited about class racing when the current crop of drivers are questioning if it is even worth it to compete themselves? [/QUOTE]

In case you havent figured it out.......NHRA dosent care. Its all about the SHOW (Circus Acts).

Re: Index Change
 

Terry: That's really not a bad idea. Buy the end of 2010, even with the new index, All the Big Engine Mustangs, convertibles included, and the Big Engine Challengers should be AA cars or SuperStock only. (As they should be) It'll be interesting to see how the new smaller engine combo's of the purpose only built cars figure into the skeem of things. MAN, I can hear the whinning now!!! Maybe Stock Eliminator will be all Ford Mustangs and Dodge Challengers in every class...Now that would be fun to watch ... Spec Stock Eliminator Cars of the Future!! ... That's when I quit. JB

Re: Index Change
 

Opps, sorry, wrong thread! JB

Re: Index Change
 

The 2010 indexes are 1/2 second quicker than they were in 1976, squeezing out 5 tenths in last 34 years, about -.015 ET per year (especially with the liberalization of the rules) isn't much.