Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Without custom heads and manifolds, picking up tenths (legally) in stock, doesn't happen.


VERY WELL SAID!


Maybe there is a "hidden" agenda here.All of the rules for the NHRA UNLEASHED PROGRAM are listed here:

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/u...0Unleashed.pdf


They all seem to allow NOS..........Hint!

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

[QUOTE=Jack Matyas;180111][QUOTE=Dave Ficacci;180106

Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. ....... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility.

Dave -- I feel your pain as I too lost earlier this year to a heads-up at a National event during the 4th round - but to an old car - so the roles were reversed . As for there being 10 of these at every event -- that may be a premature thought ..............and they won't all be in the same class if they did show up .[/QUOTE]

No, But they will be running in our Classes Jack and there wont be any roles to reverse
when that happens. Well except in my case lol...

Bob Aceves
#746 E/SA

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

The hardest part for me to swallow is reading the rule book and knowing how limited I am to building my combo. I can't buy a crate motor built for racing because it is not legal for Stock in NHRA. I fell if NHRA wants to let these cars in stock they need to allow older combo's access to new technology. The rules clearly state "No polising, Porting, or coating of the intake or heads" but today it is standard technology from the manufacturer. Let us run newer parts and combo's so we can catch up or design another class in stock like IHRA did for purpose factory race cars. Just my .02 worth

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

I hope you guys don't think I'm defending the horsepower factoring system, because we all know it has it's flaws. They do USUALLY get ironed out over time, but yes they are present and probably will be for the foreseeable future.

Dave, I'm not saying your combination is bad - but it's easy to see on paper that the new Cobra Jets and Drag Paks are better. I would assume if you look at it from an outsider's view you would say the same am i right? The largest difference is yes, these two auto makers are stepping up and putting their efforts back into drag racing - which desperately needs it. I feel for you guys with the old muscle cars, I really do - they're a great piece of auto history. And I am sure that you guys work hard and spend plenty of money on your car, it's fast - it shows. Does it suck? Yes, and I do know the feeling. We've raced in other classes where we've had competition with these weak factored combinations. No matter how you slice it, it won't change quick enough to make you the fastest guy around again any time soon. This is the same stuff in Stock and Super Stock. We now have Rock Haas with his bad to the bone Cobra Jet that just went 8.97 in SS/DA! But you know, Brian Oakes continues to come right back and go faster yet with his old '69 technology.

The point is this, you're combination isn't bad, your car isn't slow, you don't sit around and wish it to be faster - these new cars are just plain built and manufactured with better technology and NHRA will probably be slow to put the power to where it should be at. Heck, you (and I) are still using old carburetors which aren't even used on leave blowers now days - and these new cars have throttle bodies the size of my waist letting all the air in!

Due point has to be made for the 2010 CJ's in that these motors are different from their 2008 counterparts and that is why they have the 425 rating again. I'm sure it is under-factored, but hopefully for you one of these guys will go out and go 1.25 under and help the cause in a quicker way.

There is one point that I don't think many people in the Stock or even Super Stock community realize on these factory race cars right now. It's not like these are a bunch of bone stock motors with a lot of room for improvement. The Ford motors are assembled in a special engine development area by only two guys. These motors have been refined before they were ever released and there really is hardly any room for improvement. And the fast Drag Pak cars including Irvin Johns and many others to come have horsepower from Jeff Taylor. Now you tell me - you have a guy with all of the latest Comp and Pro Stock technology applied to a stock eliminator motor how could these not be fast?

To respond to your statement if BS and CS were combined, yes that would definitely hurt our program and I would obviously be pissed. But as we've done before - we would have to start off in a new direction. If I were in your shoes I would just get out of A and AA and let those guys beat each other up and be the bad guy in B/SA? What's wrong with that? If there is an advantage to be had, why not take it? If these guys are entering AA and A, why show up in their class and give them an immediate advantage? Let them go out, race each other heads up and go to fast amongst themselves and then hop back in when its manageable?

And to this Alan Roehrich clown, who the heck are you? I've looked over qualifying sheets from the last several years and you are on 1 (Bristol '08)? You asked me for ideas on how to improve your engine program, I would start by actually racing and learning. Or, better yet - call Dave Walther. He has a '69 G/S that went -1.31 in Reynolds last year - looks like he my have figured out some of the stuff you're still scratching yourself trying to learn.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Clown?

So, you want to resort to name calling. Class act. Congratulations on already losing the argument.

I'm not driving right now, I'm concentrating on someone else's program, I'll worry about another car for myself when I'm satisfied with his program.

I raced Walther when I drove that car, I happen to know the guy. And Donnie Beeler, too. The car belonged to the guy I crew chief for, he was nice enough to let me drive 3-4 races before he sold it. I don't think Walther is going to be able to help me too much with our 427/425 program. Probably won't be able to help me much with our other big block program either.

Care to open your mouth about more things you don't know too much about?

I've never heard of you either, I guess you just aren't quite as great as you think you are.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Not that it means much, but the 2010 CJ 5.4 for Stock is rated at 435 not 425. I feel your pain Dave, but I have to agree with Mike.

I have been racing along time. When I figured out my combo and was starting to run with the fast guys in the mid to late 90's, it only lasted for a year or so. The 396 guys found something and were walking away from me like I was standing still. I had to deal with it like I have to deal with the new CJ's and DP's.

I think there is more creditability to this thread with racers that have actually had to run these cars. My race was not as crucial as Dave's, mine was in class. Dave was in the four round, so I do understand were he is coming from, but me and Dave are on opposite sides of this debate.

I love the new cars in stock, even though it makes my car less competitive. I think its good for the Drag Racing, I could not imagine racing in the 1960's and having to drive a stocker that was 40 years old.

I'm happy I have a place to race my old relict. who knows NHRA may relax the rules some day and let the old cars run new engines. I know the purist would hate it, but a least we would run with the new cars.

Mike, be prepared to take a lot of heat on this one. Class Racer members can be..... lets just say tough on opposites views, especially this one.

Alan, Mike Mans is a very well know racer with a very fast SS/CS car. Although I would not have chosen those words, I think he may be a little frustrated with your view on this subject. I'm sure he can speak for himself, but I do agree name calling is not the best way to get a point across.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Ken,
I respect your views on this a great deal, even if I do not agree with you. After all, you too are faced with the new cars. If we draw one heads up, we'll take it and be sportsmen about it just like you. We really don't want to run B, the car is REAL heavy in B, and we can't with the other engine.

I really don't care how frustrated he is. He isn't even racing these cars, and he wants to tell people who do have to race them how they should feel, and then make cute comments? Nice. We've been working on our stuff for about 5 years now, creeping up on running pretty decent, doing it ALL ourselves, except for a set of heads from Mike Heintz. We have a couple of class wins at the Bowling Green SportsNational Open, where we happened to be fairly fast, and a class Wally from a race where we were just solid and consistent. I don't appreciate being told by someone who is NOT facing these cars heads up to just take it and like it. The no class name calling is just funny. And I was a crew man on a Modified car back when it was a separate class. I think I know just a little about racing.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Ken hit my point exactly. While all of the old pure muscle cars are great pieces of art, there has to be an update to bring in new racers and brand loyalty again. I am sure that GM will come out with a new Camaro to compete against the CJ's and Drag Pak cars when their financial state turns around (at least they better if they hope to have any new cars built in stock). This isn't the exact addage of race on Sunday - Sell on Monday, but it's close. There has to be some type of a car that fans and race enthusiasts can relate to or tell their buddies that they just picked up from the dealership.

I know full and well from Super Stock that there will always be a disadvantage to whatever class/combo you decide to race. It's just to what extent. For me to compete against Dave Bogner and his ultra-fast small bodied Mopar is a bit of a handicap when I'm pushing a whale through the wind with my Firebird. But, I feel that on many of the track surfaces we are faced with in the heat of the summer - I may have a better chance at consistency than if I had a new Cobalt. Now, a Cobalt with our drivetrain would probably be about .07-.10 faster due to the hole you have to punch in the air - but I have just grown so much trust in my car that we deal with it. I could be totally wrong and naive in thinking this car could ever be better than the Cobalts etc.. but we'll stick to working hard on everything else to be faster.

Newer isn't always better, but in some cases - it's here to stay and we all have to adapt in one way or another. Everyone gets so heated when we talk about this stuff, and I know it's because we're all passionate about what we have and what we feel can be done.

My point that Ken touched on is this. If you were to go back to when you were a 20 something guy at the dragstrip back in 1970-75, were you elated to watch 40 year old cars go down the track? No. Back then you would have been watching a Model T roll through the traps. And while I don't see it that way, and I can definitely see that you guys don't either - any new 20 year old guy that has no history in cars - will see all of these 60's muscle cars as Model T's... It's a generational gap.

I have a guy that I work with driving a '90 Mustang in Outlaw 10.5 with a turbo running 8.50's and he's got about $25-30k total in his car. Now, imagine the conversation when I tell him that he would have to spend about $15k to build a killer 5.0 motor to compete in Stock and try to qualify on the top (running 11's). He thinks we are all a bunch of crazies spending endless time and money trying to go fast when power is so readily available with turbos and blowers - why spend a fortune to go 11's or 12's? This is the next generation. They want to go fast, and tune it on a computer or work on the blower/turbo. This is the current factory power plants that they are taught to work on and understand. They have no clue what a Quadra-Jet is, or a Thermo-Quad for that matter. They need a reason to be attracted to Class Racing.

You guys have your generations of cars and nobody is forcing you to change anything about them. But, if a 2010 high performance car doesn't outrun a 1969 high performance car - we have some serious incompetent engine builders at the Big 3.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

I've been watching this thread because it mirrors a lot of my experience in SS as I raced a SS/A Corvette. I've always said that if I were to get back in competition again it would be with an A Stock car. Why? Because winning a Stock Eliminator title would give me wins in 3 eliminators and that's a rather small club I'd like to be in. And being that A Stock is the fastest class in the eliminator, it offers a great advantage.

Now to reality. You guys with the older cars need to cowboy up. New technology is here to stay and it's a business decision with NHRA and the manufacturers and the sponsors. Even if you could compete on the same HP rating as the newer cars, you would lose because of the aerodymanics. You need to look to the future which brings me to the next point.

Why do you care about 30 pieces of silver when the real pot of gold is the eliminator win??? Isn't that the real reason you are here??? If not, take your beating like a man and grow up. If it is, just move to another class (B or C) and take out the newer cars one by one.

Real racers are capable of making a car run fast in any class. Dave Ficacci is a perfect example. Don't worry about A/S if you are concerned about running a heads up, move to B or C and take them out. The big Wally's are far more valuable than the mini's. Focus your efforts on winning the eliminator and ignore all of the crybaby nonsense about class. You'll be far better off in the end.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

GM isn't coming with the new Camaro. Not this year, and probably not next year, or the next. They don't even have their production cars in the guide, and they've been on the street for a while. Think about it.

It'll still cost you $65K or better to run 9's in Stock. Blown CJ or Drag Pack Challengers or not.

You don't get to "work on the blower" in Stock. At least not legally right now. And my stock Buick turbo was on a fairly fast TType stocker a few years ago, you couldn't do a lot to them, either, at least legally.

Changing the character of Stock, so that it becomes "working on computers, blowers, and turbos" doesn't "save" Stock. It makes Stock into something else entirely.

The 10.5 Outlaw guys are using the same piece of asphalt, doing something entirely different than guys racing Stock. I know guys who run that style of racing. They don't "like the kind of rules you guys have". I've got both kinds of guys in the shop. One group likes the challenge of serious rules and restrictions. The other group hates all the rules, and loves bigger blowers, more overdrive, bigger turbos, and more nitrous, they just want to go fast, the cheaper and easier, the better. I don't see the second group being the slightest bit interested in running Stock, ever, even with the blown CJ's.

I don't have any problem at all with either group, I like the guys in both groups. But knowing both groups, I can tell you that you aren't going to get them to "meet in the middle". They just aren't going to run in the same class. And you can't force them to. The one group isn't coming to Stock, and you can't drag the Stock guys to the other group. For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone would want to try.

You either like the challenge that the rules and restrictions of Stock Eliminator provides, or you don't. Adding purpose built race cars, power adders or not, won't change that. When the "new" wears off, and it isn't "easy" to get another tenth, the people that do not LIVE for that challenge will go somewhere else for the thrill. When you've diluted the class, and run a lot of the people who do live for the challenge off, where will the class be then?

It's not just about right here, and right now. It's about the future of the class. When the people who don't live for the challenge can't go out and buy a really fast (AA, A, or B) car with 3 tenths on the rest of the field and 3 tenths in their pocket, what do you think will happen? I'm not talking about Jeff Teuton, or Irv Johns, or the Howells. Those people are long time class racers, they'll stick with it because they already love Stock and they understand it. I'm talking about all these "new class racers" these cars are supposed to bring. What do you really think they'll do when it tightens up?

If you want the new cars, why is it so important that they be in classes where they have such a huge advantage over other cars? Seriously, why is it necessary to just absolutely kill cars already racing? Why CAN'T they be in their own class? They'll go just as fast as they are now, with the exact same parts, and the exact same cash outlay. Why is it necessary to punish current combinations to add new cars? There would be little or no argument about any of this if the new cars had their own classes. Is it really necessary to give them 3 tenths to show, and 3 tenths to hold, over other racers, just to get them to race? Is it some sort of secret requirement that they be so dominant, just to get people to buy them and race them? Is that what we need to draw "new participants"? Do we REALLY need to do this just to get people to race? If we do, there's no hope for class racing, period. Not if this is what it will be reduced to.

Stock is something different, very different, from most other racing. Only people who love that type of racing understand it, and they'll be the only ones that come to stay. Trying to make Stock into something that it isn't is about 3 times as likely to kill it as it is to save it.

Getting new cars in Stock is great. Getting new people in Stock is even better. But doing it at the expense of the current participants, and at the expense of what makes Stock what it is, doesn't seem to be a good way to do either.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

No matter how new, I am a fan of Logic, and logic in this case at least of the first part of the statment eludes me,

"working on computers"

?!?!?! Im sorry and I dont mean this in a nasty way, but one of incredulous wonder, but are you serious ?

What you can change your timing I cant ?
You can rejet your carb but I cant alter my fuel ?
What because it only takes me a click of a button to do those 2 things it "too easy ?"
You can change your valve body but I cant change my shifts ?
You can set your "seperate" rev limiter or change "chips" but because mine is all in 1 box I can now adjust with my laptop "it shouldnt count" ?

The other 2 parts of the statement, well I really dont have an opinion on, and maybe you meant the first nothing, nothing whatsoever like I took it.

Funny thing about "Progress" and Im still a fan of doing things the old way.

True story, when I was young, about 6 my Dad bought a very new Gold very very expensive Digital Wrist Watch in about 76. We went to my Grandfathers his dads he was so proud of this item. My grandfather his dad was a Watchmaker, not a watch repairman a watch maker, and a very pragmatic man. My dad said "Pop look at this ! Leaned over the kitchen table and pressed the button that lit up the little red numerals.....My grandfather shook his head and when my dad asked whats wrong ? My grandfather asked my dad "How can you call that progress, when now it takes 2 hands to tell time ?" I never saw my father wear that watch again, but I have seen it in his Jewlry valet sitting there its and my whole life.

Sometimes progress is a step backwards, for a moment......then the leap and surge forward is quantum enough that it either leave some behind or they adapt.

Automotive technology is like that now, again.

I lived with my grandfather and grandmother for a couple years in High school and my Grandfather taught me much (about everything but watches as well) and when I saw him wearing a Seiko I asked Grandpa ! He shrugged and said its durable , cheap and it keeps perfect time. He wore it till he died. Sometimes when you cant beat em ?..............

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Cheat em'? With a bogus hp rating?

Chris, I just finished your sentence my way instead of the way you probably intended. My statement is not aimed at you or anyone else running one of the new combos. And I know that you have stated before that they are soft. Best of luck to you in your racing.

Now the reason I worded it differently than Chris is I don't care how you painted it "Cheated" is just what happened when these numbers were assigned. Not technology nor evolution. Dave you very likely would have won a race if you hadn't been "Cheated". Not by the driver, owner, etc of the car you ran heads up but by whom ever dreamed up the ratings. No different than if someone had assigned numbers to a pro stock car that caused it to fall into the same class as you.

While I am typing does anyone know what or who benifited by the minus 3 tenths yet?

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

This talk about "New Technology" ,and you just have to "suck it up" really gets to me..
ofcourse they have a better design but thats not why they are fast out of the box,this example was under another thread..


Let's compare shall we?

'79 360
9:1 CR
.455" lift
Flat tappet hydraulic lifter
Thermoquad
Cast Iron heads/manifold
1.88" intake valve 1.60" exhaust valve
Rated @ 289

5.9 Magnum
11.4:1 CR
.490" lift
Hydraulic roller lifter
1000 cfm throttle body w/injection
Aluminum heads/high rise aluminum manifold
2.02" intake valve 1.60" exhaust valve
Rated @ 275

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Drooze, the quote "working on computers, blowers, and turbos" was from someone else's post.

I never said that EFI cars should not be able to adjust their timing or fuel curves. I don't think anyone with a "traditional" Stock Eliminator car has said it either.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Rated at 289 HP from the factory in 1979?

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Understood, and I didnt see the other post, thats why I asked.

Im sure you understand how, and I tried to make it clear I was also asking if that what you meant, Im sure you could see how that to me and many (the first part of that statment) would be incredible.

Thanks for the clarification....I guess my post should have been directed to the first poster of that...lol..

Cheers

Chris

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

But see ok....2 problems, first youre compaing ancient technology (the LA)

Second I didnt say and was not myself talking about the DP cars in specific I was talking in generalities.

Lets take the 3.6 Chevy Camaro.

I understand it isnt in the guides YET.....

3.6 Liters mind you. At 300 ADVERTISED HP....

direct injection
Cam phasing coupled (Variable Valve Timing)
Cast aluminum cylinder block and heads
Double overhead cams with four valves per cylinder
Cams driven by small-pitch, inverted tooth chain
Variable valve timing with four-cam phasing for precise intake and exhaust tuning and
11.3:1 compression ratio

The 5.7 Hemi OVER The COUNTER Piece this year has Higher Compression and VVT but Im not whining we cant use it.(or maybe just maybe we can ?, nothing in the rules says I cant......hmmmm)

This year there is a REAL Good Chance Chrysler will release the 6.4 (392) with MDS, OVER IN Trucks, next in Cars......then what ? Its too much ? They are ABLE to do it and get the emissions BECAUSE of the Technology, That 6.4 will put out MORE Power and get better mileage than the 6.1 in our 2008 Challenger SRT8......

When I spoke of Technology I wasnt talking about the DP and CJ cars and their factors, as others have pointed out they are SOFT, I will agree. 305 HP for a 5.7 Come on......

We ordered the car BEFORE it was Factored....yes before....It would have mattered one rats *** less to US if it was factored to be uncompetitive from the start. THAT is a Fact.

Now that we have it, and now that the factors are soft, what are we to do ? Sit on it ? Petition the NHRA for Higher HP ? None of those are even realistic.

SO What do WE Plan to do with it ? Well run it tongue hanging out all the way factors be dammed. Thats US Im sure (and some have said) that we are dumb, please dont, etc....but well....thats what We plan to do.

In the End DP #24 May be the other Class Racers best friend since we plan to wholly disregard the factors and March the 5.7 right up the ladder.

Frankly we see the 5.7 as a B car. It can run in F now....so what do we do ? Well.....We start in F running the piss out of it, HOPEFULLY Set a Record before any of the other 5.7 DP's can, March it to E do the same, lather rinse repeat as HP gets added. When and while we do it, we also make our "mark" Im not under any illusion we are going to have a hard time , but how sweet would it be to be the first F and E etc in the 9's ? And as we do, we remove ourselves from direct competion in those classes, so were gone. The record may take a while to reset but.....thats all.....Meanwhile the other 5.7 DP well....they wont be able to reset it, perhaps a Ford package will come along and do it , but well be first.

Cheers

Chris

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Certainly not but then there was a system that "sort of" took care of it,not so anymore..but perhaps since most new cars have "made up" figures or lower than factory ratings we could drop all others back to the rating they had from start to..that would be a start!

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

That combination and a lot of others have had their day in the sun. That would include my current LT1 Formula.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Dave I agree with you completely. Adam loves stock and superstock racing but most of all he likes heads up class racing. We are working to make our car faster but adam also knows that we are way behind the new cars. When we race a car heads up we would like to think that we have a fare chance.

Ken Keir
A/SA 1470

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Just to be clear, I am in favor of any and all technology that goes into the new stuff just as I am in favor of new technology and equipment in my shop. You stay current or you get behind. My statement had more to do with making a combo a killer or a loser with the stroke of a pen. I don't like the idea of years and hundreds of thousands of dollars of mine and my customers money being tossed away because some bean counter thinks he can make a few brownie points. And that is what tech is becoming......bean counters.

On another note, I truely admire Chris and his Dad's desire to do most of the work on their cars. That is where hot rodding came from before the days of the mail order catalog. Also an imtimate knowledge of everything in your powerplant is extremely important and you only get that from doing it. Once you understand what works and what dosen't, only then can you make progress. The only way to get that understanding is by doing it.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

You have to know that that the dp/cj packages are so highly developed from the factory that the ramp up time to going fast was short. Maybe its time to band together as a team ( a/s aa/s a/sa aa/sa ) and start an engine development program for bb chevy in stock. There is strength in numbers and cost effective unless we have dirty secrets to hide. I might believe thats what happened in the barton vs. Westcott war in ss/ah . -----just a thought !

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

I needed a good laugh....a really good laugh.....

The DP is as far from that statment as you could be.....as far....they took an already ground cam they used in the 392, threw it in with some $300 chevy rods on a street crank and redid the 392 crate motor pistons for a 6.1 and 5.7......THAT is a Drag Pak, throw on a SEMA carbon hood and a set of viper buckets and youve got a Drag Pak.

There is no rear end.
There are no headers.
There is no transmission.

In as much as the motors....not even going there......

If thats "Highly Developed" I want a refund.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

The DP is as far from that statment as you could be.....as far....they took an already ground cam they used in the 392, threw it in with some $300 chevy rods on a street crank and redid the 392 crate motor pistons for a 6.1 and 5.7......THAT is a Drag Pak, throw on a SEMA carbon hood and a set of viper buckets and youve got a Drag Pak.

There is no rear end.
There are no headers.
There is no transmission.

In as much as the motors....not even going there......

If thats "Highly Developed" I want a refund.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad that is figured out..... I was about to get upset that I had gotten something less than all the other DP owners... WHEW!!! Now I know we all are in the same boat!!!!!! I was afraid my car had missed the High Developement day at assembly....

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Thanks, I needed and appreciate that.....were finishing up the put together after some parts issues hinked us for 3 days....I found a solution today.....but beware the new Indy Timing Chains with the flat roller bearing for the 5.7 and 6.1 they dont fit right...the bearing pack is too thick....tried it both ways and its a damm good thing I had my old one...

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Well said. That's why I sold my H/SA 1969 Camaro in 2009. The future comes up on you real fast when your not paying attention.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Michael, I guess it would be all right with you if Ford and Chrysler cars got to run on 9.5 wight break instead of a 10.5 in SS/CS and you had to run 300lbs. heavier. Just wondered.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Due point has to be made for the 2010 CJ's in that these motors are different from their 2008 counterparts and that is why they have the 425 rating again. I'm sure it is under-factored, but hopefully for you one of these guys will go out and go 1.25 under and help the cause in a quicker way.




Greg, the new Cobra Jets are 435 HP ,not that that helps much.LOL

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Greg, Alan has been around the horn with Kevin Craddick in A & AA and is no stroke.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Bob I know Alan pretty well. He is a bright, thoughtful person who just keeps working on Kevin's stuff. He is capable and has the credentials to speak out on this matter.