Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Drooze...next time you should consider Calico coated bearings.
You can buy them directly from Calico.

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.573180/sc.2/.f

I checked their website for availability, but it appears a lot of those Hemi's have been coming apart since they are out-of-stock... :)

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

funny guy, maybe a politician? joking,lol.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Only 2 others than our 2 that I know have come apart, and another was "close" on that one its rods got all out of round.

We are responsible for 50% of the DP Motor failures :) Hey its a record of some sort. I was talking with someone "in the know" last night and we decided to go very similar in route with what he is doing on the bottom, sucess breed succes right. We were at the same point really and didnt know it till I talked with him, so I guess us and his motor builder came to the same conclusion through different paths.

This one may come apart too....but the next....that one will stay up.

To leave you a quote from Monty Python Quest for the Holy Grail.

From the King in the Swamp talking to his son.
"When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England. "

Thats kinda how we live our lives around here....it works, it may not be the easy route but it works....and we LEARN how to build damm strong castles.

Were gonna have the fastest and strongest DP out there in spite of ourselves.....eventually :D Unless it burns down and sinks into the swamp, but if it does then well build another one.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

learning how not to do something is as important as learning how to do it.
If you are at the track and you find out something doesn't work, it can help you as much as something that worked

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

So Chris, I take it your using the newly accepted Manley rods with the 5.7 OEM Diamond pistons?

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Yep....and some additional head gasket layers.....length is a bit long.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Yup. That bit long was one of my concerns all along. The OEM Scat rod @ 6.20" center to center compared to Manley's approved 6.24" connecting rod now put's your 5.7 OEM Diamond zero deck piston's .040" out of the hole. If my math fiqures out correctly, you'll now need a .066" head gasket for your 5.7 to be legal. Factor in the additional .040" head gasket thickness and you now have a missmatch between your intake and head port. Stick a boroscope down one of the intake runners and you'll see. Wouldn't be a problem if you could alter the port missmatch with a little grinding. Also, by moving the head further away from the block will create new problems with lifter preload if your still using OEM pushrod's which may (?) lead to valve float @ rpm. Plus your .035" bearing clearance has me worried. Afterall, your not building an aluminum rod motor. I don't know if your oil pump can keep up with that, plus the oil flow deadheads at the lifters. Catch my drift?

I felt the need to post this cause most times when we talk, you always seem to be in high gear when I'm just starting to get off the line. I get confused easily as you can tell. Must be my age. lol

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Drooze,
The way I've always read the rule books a Stocker engine has to be built by blueprint specs. I'm of the opinion you can't just stack up .066 gaskets to get piston to head clearance and be legal. There have to be some specs on the engine as to piston above the deck or below the deck. The way tech has treated me is if the spec calls for below the deck it can be at zero deck and below, not above. If it calls for above the deck it has to be above the deck. What gives? Are you just throwing out all the rules and doing as you please or is someone letting or telling you to overlook the rules becaue you are a DP owner? Are you posting on here how you are building an engine that won't get through tech? I think that would be the last thing I would be posting.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Drooze,
Adger is correct. I have read many of your posts and although you may have some experience with motorcycle and car engine building, a legal engine for Stock or Super Stock takes a bit more of not only knowledge, but also experience.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Drooze has a totally legal engine using the newly accepted NHRA Manley 6.240" rod's, OEM Diamond pistons with .066" head gaskets. Quensh is still far from perfect.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

OK, Just checking.. He has had enough problems without making more in the tech area.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

If the spec calls for a Zero deck and the piston is above the deck, you cannot compensate with a thicker gasket.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Bless Drooze and crew. I want them to succeed, trust me. Me, being 54, have made my living for almost the past 10% of my life building Gen III Hemi's.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Intersting Bruce Bachelder would disagree....and well....in as much as NHRA Tech on Stockers in concerned.....well.

As long as I am + my Gasket in this case .026 (for a 5.7) So I needed to make up .034 for the NHRA Accepted rods and the ONLY 5.7 Accepted pistons. Which these are the multilayer embossed, so a couple sets, pull the rivets, and get it just right.

So I called Bruce, and it was a no brainer, you cant will there to be more metal on the block. and blocks need decked , and so on, as LONG as my heights = what is in the blueprint guide Im kosher.

We also reviewed everything else I was and wanted to do.

Now maybe in the pecking order at the NHRA someone is higher up than him in Stock and Superstock Im not aware of....But I was told by the NHRA a ways back and many others HE is the single guy I need to check with forget div techs etc. Ask 10 questions youll get 10 different answers from Div and even Nat.

Bruce actually KNOWS the DP and the issues surrounding it he is the one who approved and rejected many of the items in use including the heads. And the rear suspension like in the example of Caughlins car when Holt tried something we wanted to do but were told we couldnt. Well he couldnt either. He is one of the ones who had the deck heights changed because of piston spec issues on the 6.1 (everyone complains at advertised CR, do a calc sometime on the 6.1 per the guide...if YOU can get 12.7:1 well.....Id like to see the math)

Zeee Rules I am far from making up or throwing out, every single part that has gone into this is checked and verified as to legality and any items I do of significance like valve job and cutting ID on valve seats is checked before I do it.

Quite to the contrary, I am making 1000% sure Im spot on and if there is an issue it will not be difficult for me to say Hey BB said it was legal we discussed it at length and I have NO doubts he will recal as weve had some very in depth conversations on all these issues.

NOTHING is better than being torn down for me, nothing, if you need it well you pulled a smoker and being able to just sit and smile through it is an awesome feeling with no "nerves" or wow I wonder, or wow I hope, Knowing and having that feeling is well its awesome....to me but Im strange that way.

I do appreciate your concern, and its for a good reason so I dont get bounced, I understand it is not/was not an attack in any way and I do appreciate the concer, right now, at this moment legality is the last of my concern.....one more gremlin to kill...but its daylight now so maybe it turned into something fuzzy and cuddly

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

I know of many engines in both Division 6 and 7 that have been bounced during tech for having a piston above the deck when it was supposed to be below or at Zero and the owner tried to compensate by the use of a thicker gasket.

I was told the deck dimension and the gasket dimension are separate. Think about it; if the spec calls for a zero deck and your pistons are below the deck, are you going to use a thinner gasket than the spec to compensate for the piston deck?

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Been there Done that.
My Spirit had a positive deck height spec of plus .004. It wasa just a number chrysler wrote down (they never built a motor to those specs) .
I had 139,000 miles on the car when I set the record at Maple Grove. They checked the deck and it was -.030 down the bore (34 thousanths short).
Curt Lasure. Threw me out. for having to little compression. After a long conversation. in which I explained it would be hard to build a motor to there specs because the head gaskets varied a couple of thousanths Usually being about .004 thicker than the specs.
So it would be almost impossible to build a positive deck motor and have it check legal.
He told me to set up the motor with a positive deck then use 2 head gaskets. Which I did and never had another problem with tech. I believe the new Hemis use a MLS gasket and you can stack them as thick as you want.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

That rule has been changed. I asked what the advantage was to have a piston below the deck when it's supposed to be above the deck. And the best they could come up with was "that i would gain piston to valve clearance" I told him he was right. But that I would accomplish the same thing with a thicker head gasket. He looked at me and I know he wanted to say "overload Will Robinson can not compute"
Later that year the rule was changed.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Art,
Believe me. there is an advantage to having the piston down in the hole and use a thinner gasket to get the NHRA piston to head spec. I don't feel like typing the complete explanation. I'm tired.. Spent all day picking up my cars.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

The last thing ordered for our DP engine build were custom Cometic head gasket's. Yah....wierd.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

I did just that when I set the V record last summer. All was fine in the land of div 6.

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

We have been thru two stock teardowns at National Races in last four or five months....for us all they have done in piston/gasket height area was add gasket and piston deck heights together and if the total was greater than spec it was OK. I watched piston to top of deck and make sure the piston doesn,t rock and give a bad reading if they catch it on high side. Just my .02 worth
John Irving

Re: DP #24 Engine failure....
 

Another one of the unwritten rule changes. So, why have a gasket thickness dimension? Just put a deck height dimension.