Re: Lack of integrity
 

I have raced stock eliminator cars since the mid 70's. Back then I was envious of the numerous mid class stockers that could buy a new Firebird, GTO, Ventura, Olds or Buick station wagon, Etc. Never even change a spark plug on it and go set records.
While we worked hard to get our car to work. We could have gone out and bought one of them, but we couldn't afford it.
But the big difference if I complained noboby would hear me. So we worked hard and persevered.
The one difference is those cars were able to be registered. The reason the cars of today are not is the C.A.F.E. regs and liability. Otherwise the factory could slap a vin number on them.
I wouldn't beat the vin number drum to loud because there are numerous cars out there that the vin will not match the class the car runs in.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Art,
When it comes to corporate philosophy. The whole world has moved on from the 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's - except for nhra. It is still trying to run this tired old game with the rules and the OEM's, but it won't work in the 2010's. People and technology have become too sophisticated to allow these tactics to continue. People have grown weary because of these money grubbing games. Things will change.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Art, that loophole is big enough to drive a Pro Mod through. Seriously, with that one loophole, an OEM has damned near free reign to do practically anything they want to. It's a loophole that Stock and Super Stock cannot afford to have open. Not in today's world of corporate America. We've already had a taste.

Right now, there's very little stopping the OEM's from having their way. When you have "write your own specs, write your own HP rating, and it doesn't have to meet any production standard, so long as you also write a check", you have an avenue for the OEM's to get absolute pure race cars and race engines in the guide that no one ever even dreamed of, all the way back to the days of real showroom muscle cars.

No, this is not a return to the "good old days" of the "factory muscle car", this is a trip to the new era of corporate America, where anything goes. It's not something that class racing can afford, and maybe not something class racing can survive.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Yeah, right Alex. :)

Thing is, nothing GM did in the past compares to what has happened since Ford and Chrysler got NHRA to rewrite the founding principle rules for Stock and Super Stock. The new "no VIN, and no production standard" rule is far beyond anything in the history of Stock and Super Stock, Alex. :eek:

We now have cars that were never sold for street use, and engines that were never certified or sold in a production car in Stock and Super Stock. You can talk about LT-1 engines in 98 F body cars all you want, that minor shuffle involved certified cars and certified bodies, and there was no performance advantage. Had that not been done, there simply wouldn't have been any new 98 F body cars in Stock that year. And the 98 F body with an LT-1 is no faster than a 97 F body with an LT-1. You have a straw man argument, Alex, and it ain't holding up to close examination.:eek:

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Nicely explained, Alan. There are three nouns that describe nhra, ford, and chrysler.....whores, liars, and thieves. Take your pick of one or all.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

It sounds like todays politics dosent it !!!!!!!!!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

LOL....That hit the nail on the head !

Re: Lack of integrity
 

You got that right Arnie.

Ford and Mopar learned how to do it from the BEST.

GM formerly known as Generous Motors, former benifactor of the NHRA wrote the book on it.

:D

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I have no first hand knowledge about how prostitution works, but in the movies the prostitute sets the terms. Then the Johns get to play. Maybe during these lean times the Johns get to name their price.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Yes Terry it does.
Level the playing field=========Distribute the wealth
Sounds like a 2 headed coin to me.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Hey that's a great idea. Minting a new nhra coin. One side could say Heads We win and the other side could say Tails You lose.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

An idea whose time is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overdue.

M68

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Just be carefull of what you wish for, you might get it.
Look at what the beloved IHRA has done to Top Stock You needed a calculator to figure out what you need to weigh from week to week. That was very sucessful wasn't it.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Art, the playing field should be level. NHRA should strive to have a fair and level field for all competitors. You seem to apologize for these new cars, their bogus hp ratings on the crate motors and the fact that they were never built for street use. I wonder if you had to race them heads up you would have a different attitude.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

BS! These new cars don't bring anymore people to the stands...That's just ignorant....Do you see any advertising for " Hey come see the new factor altered stickers whip embodies ***" Wrong.....again!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Greg there is a place to race with a level playing field. Bracket racing.
I could be more inline with the rants about the new cars. If stock were really stock.
With all the chemical milling, the valve springs, the wheelie bars, the aftermarket heads, Etc.
I don't feel sorry for anyone. It's not totally the racers fault. The associations have allowed these things, or looked the other way.
How many racers on here that are complaining are using real stock cylinder heads?
Especially in the faster classes if they go 1 second under.
They should be able to do what they want. But stop the new cars.
I feel the guys with the acid porting, ruined stock for me back in 1980.
I didn't bitch to anyone I decided to quit while I was ahead.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Whats different? 400 pontiacs racing 283 chevy ll in LA in the 80s, waving goodbye on top end. 400 Chevies with the wrong specs crushing others in the 90s Injected chevy vs Carb chevy . Still Bogus HP 305 with injections. Now the new cars just rub it in to the Class racers. You cannot get NHRA attention while they are making money. Stock and SS are just entry paying classes which take up too much Tech and talk time for them. The good part of the new cars is the Factory is interested but NHRA is just taking their money and racers and laughing all the way to the bank. To quote a line from a movie" It just doesnt MATTER". If a race is held and 170 SS cars PAY entry they must be doing something right (their opinion)
454 Truck motors in Cavaliers in GT/AA with BOGUS hp is no different. Since when do GT/AA cars run 8.7s that is .7 faster that the worked out combos did with real factors.
Integrity is NOT the issue, getting entrants to PAY is the issue. No racers will ever stick together to support another organization with the History of racing NHRA.
Want to Win BUY a NEW car Underfactored and all and join the fun. Want to fight them YOU LOSE. You must USE the rules given and the opening supported by the organization.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

This just about says it all !

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Integrity is THE issue. Yes indeed we are fighting them. This is a gutless outfit with a shiny exterior. Very similar to a grumpy old man yelling into a microphone while hidding behind a curtain.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Bruce, You forget the pivotal point. THEY own the "football". They will change whatever rules, whenever and however they wish REGARDLESS of input. It is not a democracy it is a business. (Poorly run in some areas as seen by class racers but) Not a Democracy! THEIR business....Racers are just participants who pay entry to play by THE rules given.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Dick I think you miss the point. How do "they" own anything? Did "they" invest their own money and buy or build NHRA? If it's their business how can "they operate as a non profit 501 c6 corporation which clearly states that you can not operate as a for profit business? I think when then rocks are finally turned over some things may change.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Evidently you haven't built too many Stock Eliminator engines.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Dick,
It is thinking like this that has enabled this organization to scam both the racers and general public. "They" own nothing. "They" is a 501 (c)(6) not for profit corporation . "They" have been sucking off the public dole for more than 50 years. "They" have certain rules that "they" must adhere to in order for them to continue to suck off our tax dollars. And "they" aren't playing by the rules and therefore "they" will receive a very rude awakening for their illegal policies. I hope you understand now. That even "they" have rules and that there are agencies charged with oversight of these rules. These agencies can produce a terrible bite if alerted to the facts.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Switching to IHRA solves what?



NHRA was taken from its members.


So, if someone takes something from you, your solution is to let them keep what belongs to you, and get yourself something else?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Steve, Jason and others....yes we vent because its* important to us. A forum to share views empowers the "once-manipulated-masses" to challenge the ivory tower....although there are multiple agendas, its* worth fighting for....we have few victories, mufflers being one, there is a shared passion for it*

*uniformly enforced written rules within a class structure, so that racers across the USA can expect fairness when gathered together to drag race (INDY, US Class Nationals, Sportsmen Nationals etc).....there is an aura of shared pain and sacrifice that only class racers can understand

Re: Lack of integrity
 

If you guys are so pissed at NHRA, why don't you switch to IHRA?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

and all you have to do is organize and get back what is rightfully yours. You are the nhra-----not glendora.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

This is not in the cards. Some wouldnt switch even if hell froze over. Plus the travel distance involved.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Terry,
You need to get off this kick about racers switching to IHRA. You can bet your bottom dollar that racers would go IHRA racing if the big dawg bites the dust. In other words: Racers are going to race. They cannot resist the impulse to race.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Why do you guys keep doing this if all it does is tick everyone off all the time? One thing about stock racers, you all seem to be eternally pi******* off, all the time, about the injustice of the week whatever it is.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

"Injustice of the weeK" hmm, It takes time to turn around a big boat. Stay tuned.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

In the end you guys still have great bracket cars.. if your pissed at how things are playing out go for the big bucks in bracket races..

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Guys, we have a minor server issue that should be resolved tomorrow; after the holiday. For the next 24 hours or so you may find some posts out of order. Thanks.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

yea right. I can build a really nice low 10 second bracket car for less than half the cost of a good ABC stocker. Stockers also aren't built to go 400 passes, be double entered, run round robin 3 or 4 times, etc.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Bruce.....You forget I spent 22 1/2 years trying to talk NHRA guys into trying IHRA even when an IHRA race was in thier back yards and IHRA was bigger with great payouts. They still wouldnt show even when nothing else was going on within a few hundred miles. Some have tried it yes but a LOT will not unless NHRA ever bites the "Big One" . Its just the nature of the beast and with the down economy most have only so much time or money to attend what they think is right for them. They way IHRA is today Im not sure I would even race with them but it is another venue with a great buch of guys/gals racing and working the events.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I had noticed that over the last few days. I looked and saw that the time stamp the server places at the bottom of the page was off in one direction or the other several times.

Thanks to you and Ken for the work on the boards.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Top notch driver, proven car , No B.S. Well Done!!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Do you guys stop your crying to eat or cry through your meals?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Terry, it just may end up that the IH organization "bites the big one" before the NH group.....then it will get even worse for sportsman racers. Must be a big reason why Epping pulled the plug, no? Just my thoughts..... WJ

Re: Lack of integrity
 

NHRA aint going no where and IHRA aint going no where. The choice is yours. You are never going to be happy either way. I aint happy with some situations myself. I'm just glad we have places to race. If you want changes (or complain )you have to get together and present them to the right people,sometimes that works and sometimes it don't. Car count down at both HRA's . Is this because you are not happy with the HRA's or you just can't afford race like you used to? That would be a good poll to take . I am not financially available to race as much as i would like to.I have to pick and choose when and where i race because of this. Still not happy with some things at both sanctions ,but love to race . Send letters and e-mails, even send group letters signed by all who will sign. I have worked for IHRA 15 years and listen to racers as a racer and understand what you are talking about (most of the time). I am just an indian with a lot of chiefs. I have seen both sides of the fence and there are bulls on both sides .lol