Re: 2011 ahfs
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Is this your idea of having fun? The only way to cut costs is with strict rules enforcement. And we know that ain't going to happen. |
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Art your right. And Billy, Yes you can change class like Fletcher did and will have to do again very soon but how many people can drive like Dan ?
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Re: 2011 ahfs
Good points Stocker 2, But
You loose the Performance issue of Stock and SS. What does qualifying become? It becomes time trials where you learn what to dial first round and beyond. It leaves the race with only one incentive to go faster. Possible heads up runs. Oh, there is one other incentive, EGO..... The way the quota entry system works it kills the 128 car qualifying issues. If you have a race with a 70 quota you are in if you just attend. Indy and a few div 1 races will be the only places you are in a situation to go fast and make the 128 cutoff. So There goes that reason to be fast. How is this going to hurt the bread and butter business of Stock/SS engine and head suppliers? It looks like if a guy wants real performance he has to race in TD or TS where the qualified field still stands for performance. |
Re: 2011 ahfs
"You lose the Performance issue of Stock and S/S." And your point is???? Look where the pursuit of performance has gotten us. It is on the verge of destroying Stock.
With an AHFS hit, it would take several times to keep a BB Chevy from running the index. Less than 10% of the cars cannot run at least .3 under. Besides it does not take $5000 heads on a Stocker to run below the index. One of the problems is $25K engines and $5K heads in Stock. That don't sound like bread and butter to 2/3 of the racers. Some of you guys have priced yourself into too high a level in the name of performance (and ego). You've been paying everyone else FOR horsepower in order to go fast, now its time to start paying WITH horsepower for going too fast. |
Re: 2011 ahfs
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Just like NHRA doesn't care enough to throw out the bogus parts, they certainly won't care about throwing out some bogus horsepower ratings. |
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This becomes a safety issue also. How fast safely can you run a 9 inch tire car and at what weight? You guys with the AA-C cars and even slower know what I am talking about. More than once I have had both hands at 1000 ft and the pucker factor at about 10!
I don't think NHRA will make any changes for fear of loosing any deals they have with Ford and Mopar. It's a done deal. |
Re: 2011 ahfs
I don't know where you got your numbers. You sure need to take a look at the latest Nitro Joe's stats. I don't think your numbers fit the stats.
Billy, in my case I have found it is also a new group of customers that are showing up with DP and Ford combos. I haven't had a "Real" stocker engine in the shop for several years. A few Crate motors then all of a sudden these DP's show up. Quote Stocker 2 "Just like NHRA doesn't care enough to throw out the bogus parts, they certainly won't care about throwing out some bogus horsepower ratings." I thought this is what the new and enhanced AHFS was going to do for everyone. Like Stocker 2 said.. I think You hit he nail on the head: Quote; You've been paying everyone else FOR horsepower in order to go fast, now its time to start paying WITH horsepower for going too fast. It looks like NHRA has found it easier, probably cheaper too, to work a few numbers and stats after a race than do tech and correctly factor combos. So we now have a system that punishes anyone wanting to go faster. Oh well, it is what it is. |
Re: 2011 ahfs
Mike. If I'm reading this right, does this mean that if a Cavalier or Cobalt running a particular combination in SS/GT, that is also being run in a GT Camaro or Firebird, triggers and gets hp, that ONLY the Cavalier or Cobalt gets that hp, not the Camaro or Firebird???
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the way I read it! |
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Bryan, It's always said that. It just hasn't been enforced in GT. Maybe now it will be.
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Horsepower changes that effect certain bodies is only for Stock and regular S/S. Travis Miller (Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.) |
Re: 2011 ahfs
My post was not that far off the intent of the original thread. It has a lot to do with WHY the AHFS and other rules have changed over the years. True a lot do not cheat or "fudge" the rules as they say (in stock) but some do and it makes it hard for the guy on a budget and trying to do things the right way. Some will do ANYTHING to keep up with the ones who do run fast. Ive seen a lot of this stuff over the years and also know some shops and racers that do it still and get away with it. I have seen it in tear down myself and sadly wasnt allowed to drop the hammer on certain cars due to politics. The fast ones who are not doing anything "Funny" are just lucky to have a combo that is rated....shall we say....better than others. If you dont believe any of it then I have some waterfront property in Arazona for sale a a good price. Believe what you want.
As far as your post below......It just part of racing. Live with it. |
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If this goes through With in 5 years all will be racing brackets 1 through 5 . No tear downs no record keeping. It will be a win win for NHRA Because they will have plenty of "can't build a fast car" strokes to show up and brag to their friends and family about how fast they are. Especially when there is nobody to compare them with. I see it all the time on the Neons.org site. "who has the fastest neon" that runs street tires, or runs pump gas, or only run 10 psi boost etc. etc. In the long run this is going to get to everyone. At this point I'm sorry I even built my car. I built my car to go fast within class rules now if I do go 1.50 under I get the index whacked almost half a second Thats B S Any one want to buy a neon that can fly. |
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Mark You are also right, what is really happening is nhra is pushing Stock farther and farther away from its intent, gone are all the things we thought made it what we wanted when we all started to race. Inch by inch rule by rule its been cut up and given away. They dont want tech and tare downs. We will be pushed into SS soon enough, the new cars are already there. This ahfs do over is the beginning of the end for Stock as a performance class. No one even cares enough to see it for what it is.
Thaks Art, you beat me to the button, your right on |
Re: 2011 ahfs
If Ford & Chrysler had any sense at all, they would demand that the new cars are put into new FX classes before the entire Eliminator ceases to exist. When this happens, who will their customers be?
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Mark all we can do is continue to yell and hope someone is enlightened.
Craig you have a foot in both cars and you can see what is needed, why are others so blind ? |
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Let me throw this out there................
what if heads-up runs were eliminated from competition would it be preferable to having to slowing your stuff down? all the time, money, R&D, pride..... to slow the car down?? I would like to be able to go fast - work on my car - and then try to go faster - There are difinitely more heads ups in stock than SS but really what percentage of eliminations are heads up runs. It has to be a very small percentage. What's the point in dying on the hill over this crap. A prominant & extremely accomplished A/S racer suggested this 10 years ago. I'm not going to say his name because he probably wants no part of this. Eliminating heads up runs would allow everyone the opportunity to do their very best to approach this the way it is most meaningful to them while hurting and discriminating against no one. Look at Top Sportsman - gaining in popularity and gaining in acceptance and definitely welcomed with red carpet treatment by NHRA - 7 second 200mph cars 1000hp etc and they are dialing in and no one gives it a second thought. Please - don't bring up class elims issue on this one - I don't give a crap about class elims anymore because its been reduced (w/ the exception of Indy) to a sporadic side show dominted by single runs.... and sometimes fastest qualifier when it gets thrown to the side due to schedule issues. |
Re: 2011 ahfs
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"No more heads-up runs in eliminations!" |
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Should you just keep spending money and working harder to go faster and faster?
Is .90 under? (use to be 1.20 under) enough? In some cases you may not be able to be the fastest in your class - then what? Is having the fastest car the most important thing? I guess I will have to calculate how many "heads up" rounds there were this year counting all National and Divisional events. (Nitro Joe can you help here?) Seems to me - most of the guys who win a lot - do not have the fastest car in their class.. :-) peace |
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Eliminate heads ups, then it will be nothing but bracket racing. Maybe I just need to quit.
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Wade |
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Bob,
I'm really not sure why people with the new cars don't see it my way. Good close competition is good for all of us because it makes us all that much better, including the Eliminator. I'm afraid it's being watered down now to the point that no one really even cares any longer. When no one cares any longer, do you really think there will be much in the way of factory involvement and courtesy cars? I doubt it so it is extremely important to me that a high standard is not only maintained for the actual racing but also in the tear down barn. Why NHRA is oblivious to this is beyond me. Call me a dinosaur but that's how I feel. Craig |
Re: 2011 ahfs
Maybe on the street but every since there have been different classes with different indexes
I would say it is more about driving - ask Dan and Jody and David and .... |
Re: 2011 ahfs
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walkout from S/SS from a few National Events to get some attention, and we all know that would never happen, Mark as bad as this sounds I am totally convinced now that NHRA could give two s--ts about whats right or wrong and I once had a Boss that stood up at a union meeting and said if you guys dont like it there is the door and dont let it hit you in the A-s on the way out, I now fell like im at that meeting again even though I did walk through the door. |
Re: 2011 ahfs
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Wade |
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I agree 100% with Angelo. No heads up runs during eliminations and do away with the ahfs. It's just one big bracket race anyway. Let the people who want to thrash their stuff or build "soft" combinations do so and the people who want to bracket race do their thing. I've been stock and super stock racing since 1968 and still am. The original intent of these classes was always that they were performance driven. Those of us who still want to compete in that arena should be able to as well as those who don"t.
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Re: 2011 ahfs
When Mike started this thread with the latest version of the AHFS he didn't provide you with the history of what has been going on for the last few months. This is the short version.
1. Several SRAC members approached NHRA about separating the new combinations by putting them in to separate classes like NHRA did with the FI cars years ago. Both written and verbal requests including surveys from racers. We didn't get a response back NHRA. . 2, Then we were sent a proposal from NHRA doing away with the existing AHFS as we know it. The new rule was for stock and super stock to run off of a 1.10 under CIC system like Comp. So any one run by one person running quicker than 1.10 under at any National event , Divisional race or National open, all the racers running that combination across the country would be hit HP on the Tuesday following the race. The farther under 1.10 the harder everyone would be hit. 3. The SRAC voted that proposal down by a nearly unanimous vote. Any one at Vegas talking to certain tech officials were told this was going to be the new rule for 2011. 4. The SRAC then quickly came back with a nearly unanimous proposal to leave the AHFS the same as it is has been with the automatic 1.25 trigger and only for national events with the current 1.10 trigger just like it had been BUT with increased hits for combinations running quicker than 1.30 under ( similar scale as you see in the new proposal.) The only change was tiered increase in hp or indexes adjustments for combinations running quicker than 1.25 under because as you know whether you run 1.26 or 1.85 under you were only hit 3.25% and this would take forever for underrated combinations to be adjusted properly. 5. Then NHRA came back with the rule than Mike started of this post with I hope this helps as to what has been going on over the last couple months and brings everyone up to speed.. If you want to know who your SRAC is here is the link http://sportsman.nhra.com/content/sp...9683&zoneid=85 Kent |
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way down on the traveling expenses no motels or motor homes. |
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People that just want to bracket race with no class run-offs or heads ups can do that at home every weekend can't they? I don't see anything wrong with the proposal if they don't use corrected times at altitude tracks. It's a lot more liberal than last year's system unless you run WAY under. Right? I didn't hear all this last year. Is everybody actually all that much faster (review trigger .3 lower) than last season? The two times I had to watch that in 2009 (had problems last year) I just added weight and backed the timing down. Got 3/10ths more leeway now. Other than the new bogus cars, how many of you are actually that fast?
Not trying to offend anybody, just curious. |
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I like to know who is going to keep track of all the runs? Sims like a lot of work for somebody to keep track of the averages for each combination. A lot of times they list wrong body types on Drag race central. Is somebody going to look at everybody`s tech card? Drag race central doesn't list times for all runs in eliminations at points meet and no list for Open`s. . Tom
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Re: 2011 ahfs
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Wade |
Re: 2011 ahfs
I like heads up racing even if you're covered by little. I know constructive ideas have kind of gone out the window but I don't mind the new system.
I would suggest two changes. How about making the instant horsepower 1.10 under just like it used to be at 1.40 when the indexes were higher .3. 1.10 under is absolutely flying no matter what the class. Also, I'm getting lost in the terminology but counting the altitude runs off the adjusted index should count for both the automatic hit and the averages. Lastly, I'm a big fan of one pound weight breaks for the simple fact that it will make heads-up runs more frequent and hopefully help the system work faster. |
Re: 2011 ahfs
I just cruised through the Stock classes in Nitro Joe's Stats latest issue and saw very few older cars that made a run more than 1.10 under the index. I'm sure those few guys worked very hard to attain that honor. What I saw more of was quite a few newer cars that ran more than 1.10 under and they were each probably toting quite a few extra pounds.
It looks like a 1.10 under immediate hit on the revised AHFS for 2011 would have done much more for getting horsepowers corrected and done it a lot quicker than 1.20 under. Considering that .3 was taken off the indexes this year, a 1.10 under immediate hit would have been exactly the same as the old 1.40 under hit. I seem to remember everyone being very happy with the hit set at 1.40 under. Setting the new hit at 1.20 under puts us back to the same as when the AHFS started in 2002 with a hit of 1.50 under. Travis Miller (Disclaimer: Opinions and ramblings of a techman in the off season expressed on this forum by me are exactly that, my opinions and ramblings.) |
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I like the new system as (or if) I understand it. I understand Wade's issues but a few years down if we all get that much faster the indexes may get whacked again. I can't imagine any real racer (like Wade) stopping working on their stuff to go faster. Only the bracket racers won't. The performance nuts will. And they will still be called d**k swingers and ego polishers, and things will go on. I like class elininations & heads ups.
I appreciate the time & effort they spent on this. Just, personally, hope factored times at altitude times aren't used. |
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Great minds think a like. Well said Travis !!! Couldn't have said it any better myself ....then again, maybe I did ! JB
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Mark, if anyone was smart enough to respond to Rick's earlier post about the altitude tracks, you may find that you wouldn't have to sandbag at altitude because you don't really run what you run.
Using your car as an example: Sea Level index of 11.70 - 1.10 under would be 10.60. If you ran at Denver, your index would be 12.61. A run of 1.10 under would be an 11.51. For example, let's just say that you had to go 1.08 under (10.62) to get the record at sea level, so you figured your 1.10 under run at Denver would get you the record. Well, you'd be wrong! Your 1.10 under run of 11.51 would only factor back to a sea level run of 10.67 so you'd miss the record by .05 hun. Based on that, was it really a 1.10 under run, or a 1.03 under run??? Can anyone answer that question, or is it the reason that NHRA continues to treat altitude runs differently? It might be a monumental amount of work for them, so I can see why they'd shy away. But I also don't think that many who complain on this board about runs at altitude even know how the system works. I do think, and have said it on this board many times, that the altiude factors are somewhat out of line and should be rethought and probably lowered at least 10%. Mark, that would make your index at Denver a 12.52 instead of the 12.61. So Rick's question remains unanswered. Anyone going to answer it? Jerry |
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