Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

There you go Bill.Post your email address and you and all your supporters can get your
petition to NHRA and change the face of S/SS for the unwashed masses.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Both lights should remain green until both cars cross the finish line and the worst offender turns red!
Dan

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

What a radical idea! Petition NHRA instead of ranting endlessly on an internet message board! WOW!!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

No comment on the rationalization I presented? Did it not make sense? Or are you just going to ignore what I posted? Are you just going to put your head back in the sand until you hear what you want to hear?
Jeff Lee

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff Lee, I will tell you that when I started racing, I only went racing with the idea of racing, not who left first by some rule book, it was set that way because the lack of technology. When I started ET racing, the left lane always got the head start because the 5 bulb Xmas tree couldn't have any other type of handicap and "one" dial in for the day. If you were the slower car you went to the left lane and if you were the faster car you went to the right lane. That's how it was. Now with the onset of the newer technology, that has been corrected so that you can now pick your lane and change your dial from round to round. The first or worst rule was only put in place because they couldn't police it like they can now. Think about it, we didn't have red light traffic cameras back then either, but now they send you tickets in the mail, technology has moved on and we are still dealing with an old out of place rule. I'm not whinning, I'm stating the facts that all handicap racing should be even and fair no matter what your speed is.
I also didn't get a car to pick how fast or what class I was going to run, I got one that I could afford at the time, I'm still racing the same car.

Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

OK,since we want to rationalize about this.If they change the red light rule to even the
so called playing field then maybe the fast cars should be allowed a mulligan if they spin the tire on a $hitty track.But wait,who told them to build such a hi horsepower car.They
should have built a car like mine that 60's 1.74-1.80 and they wouldn't be at a disadvantage..But wait again.Maybe if I don't like the first foul rule maybe I should build a
higer classed car.
Let's get NHRA to raise the payouts.Now that's doable.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Do you mean like YOU do against the idea ?? :-)
Even when you can't give a reasonable reason not to do it ???

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

As I have stated many times before: I don't care either way. Read that again. I said petition NHRA instead of ranting here. Here = nothing. NHRA = maybe. That is how hp factors get reduced, not by endless message board rants.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

So let me see if I have this right.......

If a P/SA with a dial in of 12.70 races an M/SA car with 12.17 dial in the M/SA car is likely to spin the tires because it is the faster of the 2 cars???????????

And on the other hand

It would always make more sense to dial in slower than the car you are racing so that you can leave first and reduce the possibility of tire spin

Makes sense to me,
Bob

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bob the M/SA usually falls into the first leaver category.Look at the amount of A toH cars compared to L and down.My analogy is for the faster cars.It's just as silly as the crying out for justice that Dedman is calling for.
Even the suggestion that he takes his disciples and starts a petition gets ridiculed.It's no wonder that we get ***** on by NHRA,we can't even get it through some peoples heads,
some of them not even S/SS racers,that this is a non issue on here.
I give up.Change the f*ucking rule and see what happens 6 months down the road.I'm done with this bull$hit.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I'm still pissed you f'n crybabbies got the deep stage disallowed. It's my race and I should decide how I want to race it! As long as I didn't trip the staging beam, what was the problem? And deep staging was definitely a problem solver for slow cars and slow drivers.
I really think drag racing is not for everybody. Either you lack talent, money or both then you want the rules changed to fit YOUR lack of talent. Face the music, some of you weren't meant for this. :mad:

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

This is as bad as reading Eddies66 talk politics on the lounge. Im sick of both.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

idea of the day!!!!!!!!!!!! But no!!! Leave it alone it has worked since the day after dirt it will work when we all move to another planet.

Has anyone looked into how many s/ss nhra championships have been won with drivers using the "slower car" . I bet everyone would be surprised.


I got to tell everyone that the s/ss racers that are no longer with us are rolling over in there graves with the crap that individuals try to get changed . I could tell you this if my dad were here he would tell all of the slow car racers build a faster car or go ---- yourself.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If they change it, just make it right by putting both the red light cars out.
It won't get changed here.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Is that a PROMISE ????? :-)
I doubt it..........

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Where is the petetion? Is it ready yet? Is Bill gonna handle this or are we gonna argue about this **** all summer?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Probably the later. LMAO

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If I lived in a place called Tightwad I wouldn't criticize anybody.You're another one with his nose in a place he has no stake in.Go down to the neighborhood senior center and try to
organize the old timers there to increase the food portions for the weekend barbecues. And take Dedman with you.
Like my wife told an old busybody inour old neighborhood once."Go away,you're a nosy old man,a nosy old man".

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

He doesn't even race?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I got to tell everyone that the s/ss racers that are no longer with us are rolling over in there graves with the crap that individuals try to get changed . I could tell you this if my dad were here he would tell all of the slow car racers build a faster car or go ---- yourself.

Jimi, go read the original threads and you'll see that the majority of us slow guys have no problem.Almost to a person we said if we fouled first,shame on us.I think it makes me a better racer.But old Bill just can't get that into his head.Long live Crusader Rabbit.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I KNEW you couldn't stay away !! hahahahahah !!!!
No senior center anywhere near here Dude.
And we grow our own beef for the BBQ's with no hormone in the feed ! No feed lot crap here...
You won't find that in Joisy !! You don't even have real BBQ in Joisy !!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

[QUOTE=John Kelley;255318]We don't have nosy old men here either.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

There was a large uproar on this forum when mufflers on stock/super stock cars was brought up and it was changed. Who's to say the red light rule controversy might not have the same effect?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

[QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;255319]WHAT? Oh that's a joke, I get it. Jim



.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed, come on now, you have almost 4000 posts and you still can't edit a quote properly? No wonder people attribute quotes to you. :)

It's not that hard. Just hit the quote button and delete everything but the text you are responding to, but DON'T delete the brackets [ ] or anything inside them.

For instance, here is what Jimi's quote should look like after editing and before posting (I added an asterisk inside the brackets so you could see the format):

[*QUOTE=jimi;255294]I got to tell everyone that the s/ss racers that are no longer with us are rolling over in there graves with the crap that individuals try to get changed . I could tell you this if my dad were here he would tell all of the slow car racers build a faster car or go ---- yourself.[*/QUOTE]


Here is what it looks like without the asterisks in there:


It's not that hard is it???


-Toby

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I wish every class required mufflers, I won't race a car without them.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Toby,where did I ever say I was the brightest bulb in the box?I just wish Bill would let it rest.I'd back him 100% if he started a movement to get us payed better for our entertainment work.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Both will benefit you. Why do you embrace one and decry the other???

Is your middle name "inconsistent"???

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

There's just no way to get to you.My middle name is Anthony.

Re: worst red light debate, again! 'till we get it right...
 

At least, my rant makes sense.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

EXCELLENT idea, Dan...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Why didn't you answer this question??? "Both will benefit you. Why do you embrace one and decry the other???"

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

[QUOTE=Bill, it isn't that no one can show you a reason, it's that no one can show you a reason you can agree with, or live with. There is a distinct difference. [QUOTE

Okay, Alan, YOU tell ME what is fair about a rule that gives FREE RIDES to the second car to leave, if the first car red lights. Please do...

I don't have all the answers, but if you can tell me what is fair about "the above" I'll listen to any argument you can muster, on the subject.

I'm waiting... and I'm afraid I'll be waiting for a long, long, time, because there's nothing fair about it. Please prove me wrong...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I always wondered how the sound of "the truth hurts" actually sounded.

Now, I think, I know... LOL!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Love this...!! Thanks ,Claude

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

What you fail to realize (and, I am convinced that you really DO not realize this) is that a worse red light rule gives the advantage to NO ONE. With it, EVERYONE has an EQUAL CHANCE TO REDLIGHT...

That is unlike the current first red light rule, that provides the second car to leave NO CHANCE to red light, IF the first car to leave turns on the bulb.

Will you NEVER grasp the idea that that is not a fair, nor equitable situation?

It's not exactly rocket science...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff, I apologize for the lateness of this reply, but the truth is, I just didn't see it until now. My bad...

Point-by-point...

Jeff sed: "long time ago, the powers-that-be were sitting around and trying to plan a path for drag racing involving the Sportsman racers and the time delay start. The starting system was in discussion, about the same time they were discussing "how can we continuously promote the sport, feed our advertisers, and keep the fans interested".

Bill contends: Even back in 1962, when this "program" was in the planning stages, the NHRA DRUIDS were never that insightful, when attempting to give us a game-plan that would do three things, successfully, at once. Remember, these were the guys that gave us class racing based on SAE Gross HP numbers (replaced at a later date, with SAE "NET" figures and HP "Factors." A TOTALLY different set of classes for the very same cars. My '72 Valiant 318; 2-bbl went from 230 (gross) HP to 150 net...and the class changed (later, changed again, with factored HP)..... the "now it's legal', now it's NOT" rules chages that defined what constituted a Stocker, that resulted in Cast iron manifolds replacing tubing headers for a while), camshaft rules that went all the way from "Stock lift/duration, and overlap" to this virtually wide-open cam situation that exists, today and the attendant valve spring rule that makes it all work (ALMOST,) today... nevermind the illegal status of aftermarket rockers, which would make it ACTUALLY work... No, these geniusses aren't going to be thinking about THREE things ("marketing, sport promotion, and keeeping the fans interested") at one time, during the genesis of the handicap system.

Nope, the handicap system that included the "first red light loses, PERIOD" was born, not because of any far-sighted thinking on the part of the authors, and their efforts to further the fortunes of Stock-Super.Stock racing, but nothing more complicated than "There's no other way to do it. Maybe no one will notice."

No one did... At that time, they were trying to work out software that would, instead of eliminating the first car to break out, eliminate the car with the WORST amount of breakout.

They got that glitch taken care of, and apparently, so many people were happy with that new method of prosecuting the breakout system, the red light problem was swept under the rug.

Years went by... the red light system in use (first red light loses) in handicapped racing was identical to the one in use for heads-up racing (where it makes TOTAL sense), so it became the "industry standard," and went virtually unchallenged for many years.


Then, Jeff wrote: "And if the status quo on race cars was "slow is good enough", then the fans would be bored to death, never to return.

And Bill countered, " But, that didn't happen, and it had nothing to do with a "first red light rule," It had everyting to do with Drag Racers having the mindset that hot rodding IS engineering one-upmanship, that manifests itself in the never-ending search to go faster and quicker... even in Stock.
One only has to look at the maximum horsepower available from Chevy (for example) in those salad days of Stock Eliminator to realize that it was no secret that performance sold cars, and dominance on the drag strip was first and foremost in racers' minds, in those early years. Beginning in 1955, the numbers, yearly, went up from (1955) 195, 225 or 240 (depending on whether you "buy" the Duntov cam in a '56 265), 283, 315, 335, 350 etc....

The desire for a fast car had nothing to do with a "first red light" starting line advantage. Folks just wanted to go F-A-S-T.... In fact I don't remember that ever being discussed back then, as an advantage for a quicker classed car, do you?

Seriously...

Then Jeff wrote, "So NHRA ingeniously merged all these concepts into one. Slower cars could still race but there was a carrot to going faster and faster as his budget grew. The racer figured out he might have an advantage by leaving second with a faster car than the other guy. He found that not only was leaving second an advantage but his faster car reacted on the starting line differently. Word spread and others wanted faster cars. Speed equipment flourished, advertising budgets increased and fans had something to marvel at. Everybody was happy except the slow guy. Too bad."


Bill contends, that "It IS too bad, because NHRA has spent its entire, organized LIFE trying to make a "level playing field" for ALL it's competitors, especially, in Stock and Super Stock.

Cases in point...

I had a friend who ran his '55 Chevy in Stock at the '55 Nationals. He was disqualified on the starting like because the tech inspectior opened his hood and found his air cleaner wing nut "too loose."

I have a friend who lost in class racing because one of his exhaust valves was too SMALL, by a few thousandths,

The tear down barn can only be called an obsessive/compulsive attempt to remove cheaters from the equation...

The NHRA dedication to fairness in their Modus Operandi is legendary.

No one can fault them for that.

But, to sit idly by, and watch as one car, that was forced into leaving first by circumstances (his car was the slower-dialed car) get eliminated by a red light, and not require the second car to leaave, to face the SAME red light jeopardy, demonstrates a double standard worthy of Adolph Hitler... especially, since the "fix" for the digital mechanations, is so easy these days.

You have to remember, this is not about slow cars vs. fast cars. If a B/SA car is racing an A/SA car, it applies equally as much as if a AA.SA car is up against a V/SA car.

I am in no way involved with the invention of this "worse red light" rule concept. I am a slow learner, and it took me a good 2 months to figure it out, after a good friend of mine had the patience to teach me the vagaries of it.

Now, I don't see how I could have been so thick headed,,, but, I was... too steeped in the tradition of the first red light rule... (since 1963)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

By "Pros" do you mean Tony Schumacher and John Force?

Do they race handicp starts?

Or, if you mean the Dan Fletchers of Stock and S/S???? You know, those guys who get more seat time in a month than most people get in a year????

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

That's because I never said it.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

No, Ed, there YOU go again, wasting keystrokes instead of answering the question: "Why should this unfair rule NOT be changed."

You don't have an answer, even a wrong one, so you never even try...

Instead, you pass the buck, and do anything BUT write a post that relates to the question at hand.

Since you don't seem to have the answer, why don't you just admit it and say, "Gee, Bill, I guess I don't know..."