Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Dwight,true to a point about costs.But how many 305 cores (blocks,heads,intakes,cranks,
etc) can you buy for the cost of a 396/375,427 any hp rating,for that matter a 390 AMC?
I believe for the most part lower class stockers are built by guys with not a lot to spend.My car,which I bought for $125 came only in the class guide with a 258 6 cylinder.If I wanted to build a 1969 SC/Rambler (390 4 speed only) a ragtag original car would be over $10K.
Even a clone rambler non post car commands a good buck,for a rambler.
I built my car on my small budget.I've had a moderate amount of success in the past 11 years.I've worked hard at finding a way (with a lot of help from Tom Goldman) to get the car to run the number on the window.I think we've succeded at that.Now I need to race more to get the tree down again.Any car can be successful,fast or slow,with the right driver with the right mindset.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Agreed Daran, I just wish I lived closer, but after enjoying my first Nitro Jam/IHRA racing experience, being closer to there might have to be in the works???

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Alan I respect your needing to run G/S et's or better, but I like the competition drag racing allows...plus not having to be concerned with speed limits, and unsafe drivers/roads. That's why I race...I'm too old for human drag racing (track), and I didn't do very well with horses...real horse power, and the way they race turning in circles, I refuse to do that, because if someone tries to purposesly wipe me out, there's going to be problems...what Richard Childress did to that Bush guy would only be part of it...if you can't beat someone in a clean and fair race, then you shouldn't be racing...my .02!

I race my slower roller for three reasons:

1. It's something completely different than most cars out there.

2. The insuing challenge of doing something only two others have done (on a divisional or national event level), is something I choose to embrace.

3. Since my car is slower, there's less breakage, so my budget is happier.

Trust me though, when I bought this car I was looking at a 4dr Belvedere with a 318 in it. I wish I could've gotten that car too, because I love mopar products (especially Belvedere's, Savoy's, Coronets, and Darts), but I can't afford the bigger engine cars, so I choose to run a small engine/car. It's all about choice.... :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

[QUOTE= It's all about choice.... :)[/QUOTE]

And who wants to deliberately choose a ("slow") car that runs a class that can be unfairly screwed by the first red light rule, most of the time they race (handicapped races)???

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that, just like what happened to Ed F. at his last national event, if you run enough rounds as a first-to-leave car, some faster car who gets a free ride when you red light could possibly go on to win the event. People see that and think, "why me"? As, well they should...

Until equal red light jeopardy is a fact for every car, I think the exodus from the lower classes will continue. It's just one more contributing factor to the disadvantages of running a "slow" car...


I promise not to write more about this; you've all heard my rant, but I couldn't believe that no one had mentioned it...

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Ohhhhhhh.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Like you, I thought it only natural the defective handicap starting system would be mentioned early in this thread.

It's sad that it still exists. Even more sad so few seem to understand fully how unfair it is.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

maybe we're tired of hearing about it?

btw,my American was going to be run as a 232 6cylinder car BUT no scattershields available for the application, the 3 speed was about the size of my fist and 4 speeds were not available behind the 6....
next best thing was a 290...

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

It is not a perfect world. Just a reminder double red lights are not important!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

After running a "slow" car for the last 4 years, I think the worst red light issue is a non issue. Having a clean tree most of the time is more of an advantage. When I ran my super pro car, I was usually the faster car and found the distraction of the car in the other lane was a problem for me at times. The biggest issue I see for the slower cars is the big swings with the wind and weather, just wish for a calm, cloudy day.
Jim Mantle U,V/SA 6632

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

x2 Mark, heck I could find a Vega, and put a small block in it and build it up to be 10-12sec. car with minimal money spent...since they were so popular in past decades... :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

That's cool Phillip, and for your Coronet, I think it's much closer to where it belongs with that body style....I think of Bob Marshalls SS/BA, or the Former similar car that Dennis Mauer & Judy Lilly used to campaign as well, when I see that car.

Someday (maybe) I'll get to campaign two cars, and the second one will be something faster, but for me now, winning with an oddball slower roller (and the extra challenges there in), are fun for me...mainly because thanks to IHRA, I'm still competitive without breaking my bank account... :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Cool

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

That made it even more cool, since it was an R/SA car...

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

x2 Jack.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Now, Michael, I have to agree with you here...thank GOD for IHRA, although I never was good at the deep staging part. :(

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Well said Richard...another reason I've been glad to embrace the IHRA Finally in the western 1/2 of the country! :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

I couldn't agree more Michael!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Ok Jack, I'll give you a different spin on your six responses to Richard:

1. True there aren't enough cars to run class at every national event, but since NHRA has chosen to increase our national event entry fees, membership and competition number fees, and allowed the manufactures to place more restrictions on how contingencies are earned, I'm not suprised as to why...over and beyond there still having some divisions that are geographically too large in America to make it more palatable for many racers budgets and time (starting with mine).

2. Those who can afford faster class cars probably have extra money to spend on the parts/work they can do to make their already faster cars more so, much easier than a slower roller likely can, so although the index change affected us all, faster class racers can more easily deal with it.

3. I'll agree with that one, but again see above.

4. I'm not sure how you get more money with less entry fee costs? Based on what I have to pay now for a national event entry, as opposed to the contingencies available for me to claim, I'm paying more for less...circa 1999 when I paid less than $200 bucks to race in a national event, and was able to enjoy winning $500 in class contingency money. Today's entry fees for national events are nearly double what they were then, and the best I can do in class is $50. What's fair about that?

5. I want the factors back the way they were, and my car isn't nearly quick enough to be concerned about any penalties. Since that won't likely happen, I'll be greatful again for a growing IHRA presence out west.

6. I'll agree with you on the first part of your statement, but again refer to my response #2 for the second part. Since most racers have more in their engines (money wise) than I do in my whole car, if I could afford to campaign a car like yours, I would still be racing (even inspite of the higher gas prices, that although are still high, are better than they were 1-4 months ago).

I wish you well too with your car, and I'm glad you're able to continue racing it. Since my budget isn't as good as yours is (thanks in a large part, to the lack of caring about MADE IN THE USA, by many around us), I do the best I can with what I have. This year so far has been much better for me with regards to the level of racing I could do, and thanks to IHRA's apparent greater caring for us class racers, now I can enjoy major league racing levels, without having to spend major league (enhanced) dollars.... :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Again well said Dwight, the way I see it, if Jody Lang can do it, then anybody can do it, as long as they're willing & able to apply theirselves to what they're racing like he has for so many years...Jody's winning to day (even in spite of the DP's and the CJ's), with the same Malibu wagon he won the '98 & '99 Mopar Mile High's with. Every time Jody wins (especially against those cars that are 3sec.'s quicker than his), then I know that I can do it too, so I know it can be done...other fwd and slower roller racers have one numerous elimination heats against the faster cars as well, so as far as I'm concerned the equipment is here. Although NHRA has allowed the faster cars things to help make them faster like wheelie bars, and different valves/springs, and other engine components that weren't legal in Stock 30yrs ago, they haven't been so liberal with the fwd cars (like giving FI cars like mine an option to replace their factory systems, with earlier production carbureted induction systems, to possibly improve their cars ability to be more competitive w/o the expensive FI systems). Why not NHRA? You guys want to know why I've been so much of an advocate of IHRA this year, that's one of the biggest reasons why...they make it easier for the faster cars to be even faster, but they haven't offered options to us slower roller (and especially fwd) racers to help make our cars quicker and more competitive too...what's fair about that???

Dwight, I could only hope that racers interested in some newer (against the norm combos), will get their oem stats and send them to NHRA just like I did, because prior to my desire to get my car to be a stocker, it wasn't in the classification guide either. The Late Great Founder of NHRA "Wally Parks", was the proponent of fwd racing in Stock Eliminator. He's sadly gone, and it's beginning to show with how the fwd & all class racers are being treated...NHRA didn't need to go to such extremes with class consolidation, but carbureted racers are paying for it when racing FI cars, and fwd's didn't need to go from 16, down to 5...8 would've been a sacrifice too, but it would've made more sense!

To whoever (in another thread earlier this year) said NHRA reads these posts, I hope you're right, because I want them to know how I feel about their apparent lack of caring for us sportsman class racers who want to compete at the national/divisional events they offer, but every year it seems that they're showing that they don't give a damn about us...adding these new sportsman classes (that aren't rules restricted), raising our competition costs, not talking to ESPN about getting shows like "Inside Drag Racing" back (thus allowing our cars to be seen again like they used to be 5yrs ago), yet claiming to support sportsman racing...words are one thing, but actions are something else, and those actions aren't very supportive IMHO!!!

Finally, if NHRA really cares about us sportsman racers, then they should reduce our competiton costs...our purse sizes (with contingencies included), are down so the entry fees, and registration costs should be down too...especially until America gets back to work again...that sounds fair to me!

My .02 x's 2!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

AMEN BROTHER, to borrow from HULK HOGAN.... :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Well said Ed! :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

I just wanted to verify that you can't win with a slow car.




.... but you can Runner-Up! :D

Had a great weekend with the Turismo at the IHRA Pro-Am at Dunn-Benson, falling to World Champ Richard Alford in the finals. Ran back to back .91's in qualifying, and it was heading for .93's and .94's all day today until it grew legs in the finals. ;)

Had a fairly productive test session with the new Super Stock combination in the Volare, too. 10 runs under our belt, picked it up .22 and 5 mph from start to finish, and we already know a bunch more things we need to do. Overall, felt like we didn't do too bad for complete EFI newbies. Thanks to Southland Speed, Sloan Racing Engines, and the large number of people who were kind enough to let us tickle their brains. Oh yeah, Richard got me 2nd round of Super Stock, too. :rolleyes: Great job as always, bud!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

I said I wouldn't write any more about this, but when I read something like this, it is more than I can do, not to respond. I apologize to all who are offended by posts that offer more truth than is palatable...

RE: ":I think the worst red light issue is a non issue. Having a clean tree most of the time is more of an advantage."

Are you under the impression that if they (NHRA) employ a double red light system, you will LOSE your valued, "CLEAN TREE?"

You won't; it will still be there, as always.

All it (the new system) would do is force EVERYONE to face the same red light jeopardy, like you always do, when running against a second-leaving car.

Is there anything unfair about that, making the red light rule equal for all cars?

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

xxx

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Jim , I don't think it's a non-issue, but I think it's a minor issue.
I do know plenty of people who's partial justification for moving up to A-B-C cars, was it gave the other guy the first opportunity to red light.

That being said, it was never enough reason for me to NOT build a slower car.
In reality , if you can't string together 4 or 5 good lights in a row, you're not going to win much, leaving first or second.

There were several " first" red lights this weekend. I'm surprised we haven't heard about them yet, here.. .But that's another thread, isn't it?

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

"In reality , if you can't string together 4 or 5 good lights in a row, you're not going to win much, leaving first or second."

Exactly.

But, when the second-leaving competitor is not forced to prove he can do that better than the first-leaving competitor, there is an advantage.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

I tried to communicate your point about costs, Ed. What I was trying to get at was if you were going to build a car from scratch, there's not much difference in price in a fully tricked out fast car (say a D-E/S Duster) and a fully tricked out slower car of the same genre (say an O/S Volare SW).

Your second statement that I quoted from you is right on. Determination and desire are maybe more valuable than speed or dollars. I don't expect the people who are currently competing in those upper classes to sell their cars and build something that would be 3-4 seconds slower, I just want to encourage participation. If we make it look like you have to spend $25K + to even be able to participate and win, then we will lose a very important part of the soul of Stock Class racing. When I started, if I thought I had to build a late model muscle car to be able to compete and win, I would never have stepped into the arena. However, a good friend of mine partnered with me and we build a car for $2300 that won the first points race we participated in.

Great job, Michael Beard, on the runner up this last week-end!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Dwight, I've been in a couple of interesting discussions recently with old friends who happen to have "expensive" Stockers which could be pointing at a trend. Over breakfast with friend #1, he asks me how inexpensively I could build a lower classed Stocker for him because he's "afraid of breaking his E/F/G Stocker because it's too expensive to fix". I told him 5 grand if he could find a body, he's thinking about it but he'd like to sell his $$$ Stocker first. Friend #2 wants to know if he can borrow one of my cars so that he can race more often because his D/E/F Stocker requires lots of maintainance and he's afraid of taking an AHFS hit.
It seems to me ( in my own little world), I'm sorry to say, that the majority of people that are interested in lower classed Stockers are no longer looking for a competitive advantage or even a place to hide. They want something for nothing that they don't have to work on, spend money on or maintain but they can race the wheels off of.
I've always said that "I'll help anybody that will help themselves" and I'm proud to be able to say that I've helped a couple of young men get a start and do things in this sport that I'll never be able to do but they had the "drive and work ethic" to advance themselves beyond what I could teach them. I run into people all of the time who tell me how "great" they are and if only I could "give them a car" they could be killers.
Oh well, I guess to end I should just say Stockers can still be built for a minimum investment but a lot of work and if anyone would like my help,"I'll help anybody that will help themselves". BTW if you're a dreamer or a slacker, don't waste my time.
(Friends #1 and #2 let me know what you want to do, you're friends)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Another "nugget" from Billy! Well said my friend! Jim:D

.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Very well said Billy still looking for the T/A.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Hey, the Turismo's for sale. (just not ON sale) :rolleyes: "Proven R/U!" ;) (err, proven winner...) There's probably half a second in the thing if somebody bothered to work on it and spend a couple of bucks. I just choose to run it in bracket mode for the most part. Only reason it's for sale in the first place is that I can't afford a bigger truck & trailer combination to field two cars. (although I'll be doing the 'make two trips' stunt a couple more times this year to get both cars to the track, at closer venues) Throw a 19.5" tire on the front for gear ratio (or if you could make a 4.30 gearset), have Jim Bailey at Finished REM & Cryo all the transmission internals, and a couple other little tricks, and it would *fly*. I just have my hands full with the big car, that's all.

Tid bit of trivia: Didn't put gas in the Turismo all weekend. Think I used a jug and a half in the Volare. :eek: You can AFFORD to race the Turismo! :D You get great mileage towing such a light car, too. ...just sayin'!

Worst bulb of the weekend in the little car was an .042, and I knew I blew that one. The other .040 was from getting on the converter late - my bad.. Three 'teens, an .02x and an .03x. I'd say it's drivable!

While there are some challenges to slow cars, you can also turn your "disadvantage" into an advantage. I'll leave it at that for now....

Oh, Dennis or Artie, I've still got one 20x8-14 M/T slick with not too awful many runs on it.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

And so much for the commercial break, back to our regular programing!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Yeah, flip it back to the Anthony trial! Jim:eek:


.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Update: You can actually win a final round with a slow car, as long as it's not a FWD. ;)

Billy Nees won the Gamblers race at Beaver Springs yesterday. I swear you could almost detect a smile...

http://www.beaversprings.com/2011/index.1300.jpg

More pics and race report at www.beaversprings.com

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

lies, lies!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Michael, last weekend at Bowling Green, they had a really nice two car all aluminum open trailer, that just had Michael Beard written all over, it on display. :D

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

I don't know about that, but I can almost detect a fairly new hat.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Aww come on Dennis,I told you to stay out of those tittie bars in south jersey.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Mark,the old one junmped off his head,ran up the mountain and shot itself with a 12 gauge.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Ed what can I say Lol.............Billy knows what I Mean.