Bruce, I like your ideas. We seeem to think alot alike on this issue. I have been racing Super Stock since 1980 and have seen a lot of changes, Some good and some that have just cost us a lot of money. The electonics are not going away. You can fight them or join them. There will always be opposition from the backward thinkers. Our classes will never return to the way they were back in the 1980's. You will never see NHRA take away the trans brake and make us foot brake. As for stock the two steps are probably also here to stay. Us also rans will probably benefit from the use of a delay device. As for the screen names it is nice to know who is posting thier ideas.

Mike

Okay, take SS Engine Guys Kelvin temp light sensor to react to the first light, and then the driver releases HIS button on the normal bottom yellow. It looks as though he's actually driving the car, BUT.....?

I think many people are overlooking the fact that RACERS are being cheated out of money in MANY classes because these types of devices ARE and HAVE BEEN available for years.

Not that many years ago, a World Champ COMP racer was caught with a light sensor in his full face shield; same technology as the high-zoot helicopter pilots had for gun sights in their shields.

Think what you want!

Jerry

Jerry, okay you believe its out there, then who is doing it. We all know who wins most of the time in stock and super stock. Name names, it can't be that hard.

Someone is steeling your money and you will not confront them. If someone came into your pit area and started driving your car away, you would do something about it, would you not.

Are you going to tell us there is cheating out and you suspect no one?



Ed Brice

We certainly don't want Stock to go away. We want stock to remain a certain way and keep it from mutating any more than it has already! We don't need another electronics class that allows more driver functions to be pre-programmed/modified and which opens the door to easier incorporation of illegal "accessories".

While the cars haven't remained "stock", it would be good for the sport to keep driver functions & reflexes "stock" from start to finish. I believe that diversity is important. If someone wants to race with buttons and other electronics, there are plenty of other classes, from local to national, that are available.

Keep Stock unique. Otherwise there may be more excuses to combine more classes, like Stock and SS!
Then Stock would "go away", wouldn't it!

Locomotion Racing
http://www.geocities.com/locomotionracing

,

Myron - I bet your sentiments echo 98% of all Stock racers feelings - but you miss the point. Times have changed and NHRA can't/won't/who knows for sure why/ don't seem able to stand firm. So they're making us an offer.

Believe me, I feel if I practiced every weekend I would happily throw my money up and race anyone. I totally feel I could go out and nail .520, .530 lights all day once I could practice my *** off. Will I ever get to? That's my problem. But knowing this "other stuff" is evidently out of control, what REAL choices do we have.

Evidently no one has the nuts to protest suspects at the track. So naming people online amounts to so much hot air. And after this much yippin' any smart cheater is going to rip the stuff outa the car for a while anyhow.
Random spot checks by NHRA over the next two years might scare a few.

I don't know.

What if. ok, this is a random thought...

What if the starter had the option to change the light from a 5 tenths three amber to a 5 tenths pro tree right after pre-stage - with a notice to the driver - and if you saw the driver flinchin' around or moving his hand......well....wtf.

I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

Ed Brice writes:
>> Sorry folks, I sound like Mr. Beard.....way to long of a post.

Yeah, but it was good post, Ed. :-)

Ed O'Brien writes:
>> Do you think there may be people with ported heads out there ?

Yup. Most of the class cars on the planet delve into the so-called 'grey' area of the rulebook. There seems to be a general acceptance of 'what you can get away with', so people only seem to care if someone really goes overboard... It is what it is, I guess. Whether some like to hear it or not, I'm there primarily to bracket race. If I have a heads-up run, I take my lumps (or get lucky), and move on.

>> It is my opinion that DAN FLETCHER has use some sort of device to slow his car down and not the foot feed ! I've seen this several times and he has the only 69 camaro that has no front end movement when when your on and off the gas !

Neat! What kind of device controls the throttle *and* controls suspension travel? What's the purpose of controlling front suspension travel at 1000'? Huh.

I've interviewed Fletch a number of times, and he's mentioned things that I don't put in the articles, but let's put it this way: Fletch is on a different planet when it comes to driving ability, and most importantly: *strategy*. H*ll, I've been racing since 1990, and won a lot of races and championships since then, and I've learned a great deal of strategy just in the last year or two that's helped me significantly. Fletcher is 10 years ahead of his time. Many people may never figure out what he's known for years. Just my opinion.

Oh, BTW, IHRA inspected everyone's cars (including Fletcher's) at Toronto the other year, in one of their random inspections. (One of the things that y'all are wishing NHRA did, has been done for years in IHRA) IHRA has caught things as small as a car that was accidentally hitting the chip through the traps, cars with loose ballast, drivers without proper safety equipment, etc...

Brice is right: You know who to check closely: those that win a lot. If they're not winning, they're obviously not doing a very good job of cheating!

Ed Brice writes:
>> As far as it being an advantage for fast cars, its not an advantage if you have access to the same combo. No one is telling you that have to build a slow car. Fast cars can spin the tires more easily than the slow cars, should we give the fast car a bigger tire. You can build what you like, if you can't afford it, well that's to bad, racing is not cheap.

With the tire technology we have today, I don't think the 'fast car can spin' argument holds much water anymore. Yeah, nobody held a gun to your held and told you to spend money, but realistically, it's getting to the point where it is nearly a requirement to spend in order to be competitive, even if it is bracket racing at its root. When I'm chasing, I feel bad if I can't drive the stripe down to .015 or better. When I'm being chased, I can double-oh my opponent *sometimes*, but many more times, it gets to be an ugly hogging of the stripe... I've been taking a lot of .040-.050 stripes this year when getting chased. That's another .03 I have to make up on the tree! There have been numerous rounds I've lost primarily because my opponent simply had a faster car than me. Why do you think Fletcher's building a faster combination for Super Stock? Just wait til he gets that thing on the track... his win percentage is going to go up even higher.

Again, that's my only real argument against things that make the faster combinations more attractive. In the big scheme of things, it's going to drive the cost up.

Mike Pearson writes:
>> As for stock the two steps are probably also here to stay.

...Except that 2-steps on automatic transmission cars could be eliminated from Stock without any of the repercusions involved with transbrakes in Super Stock. They are a starting line tool, just like deep staging was for slow cars. They didn't have any problem doing away with deep staging, even though it had a greater effect on many combinations' starting line technique than 2-steps will ever have.

Jerry Ryan writes:
>> light sensor to react to the first light, and then the driver releases HIS button on the normal bottom yellow. It looks as though he's actually driving the car, BUT.....?

The way S/SS racers watch each other, even that wouldn't last long before it got caught. You even gave such an example of someone getting caught.

Griffith writes:
>> Im thinking that a car with a 2.70 60ft and with the .400 button,,,it would be interesting

I bracket raced my mom's '85 Chrysler 5th Ave once. 318 smog motor with airplane gears. Blocked *just* the TOP bulb, and left off the flash of the 2nd, shallow staged. Was .027 on the first try. It's best 60' was a 3.09, and ran 13.20's in the EIGHTH! I don't think you could do it. Besides, top bulb racing is mostly a moot point when you can block the tree and adjust from there.

Sorry so long. I get it from my mom. ;-) (Billy probably just fell out of his chair laughing... he's MET her!)


Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

So what do we do.

I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

There's no easy solution.

IF you protest somebody, would a sanctioning body have the time, resources & knowledge to check for all possibilities? Would they have to impound the car and strip it down, like they appear to do in Nascar? Would they even want to? Would you know what to look for and where? Would you trust the inspectors 100% when your money as well as reputation is at stake? Somehow I doubt it!

The point I'm trying to make is that the more electronics you allow, the easier it is to cheat, even IF very few people actually do. It also adds to the expense to get involved and to stay involved, especially when new gizmos are introduced on a regular basis. We already have to do that mechanically trying to make our cars faster and more consistent.

Should class racing be allowed to evolve into an exclusive club that only allows people with the most resources to be competitive? A long time ago, some people were able to be competitive in the Pro classes mainly because of driving skills, innovation, etc. Not anymore.

Besides, how often has NHRA taken a step forward for class racers, then taken 2 steps back? It just seems that the more the sportsman classes have in common, the better chance they have of being integrated into fewer numbers. There is also a history of "If it's too difficult to police, change the rules to make it easy!" But I still think more electronics being allowed makes things more difficult to tech. If they can't thouroughly tech electronics now, because of time, resources, or whatever, how can they with more "stuff"?

Obviously, taking away buttons, 2-steps, trans brakes, delay boxes, etc. from certain classes will take business away from manufacturers, which sanctioning bodies need. But unless somebody makes some concessions/compromises, class racing as we know it will eventually "go away"!

I don't have an easy solution, but I would like to see some diversity remain in sportsman racing. Sometimes I wish I was born 10 years earlier!


Locomotion Racing
http://www.geocities.com/locomotionracing

Ed Brice, You said you couldn't believe how "Stupid" some racers were, and that included me in that post. I'm here to tell you that you are a "F!#!$ing Moron" you don't know "****" I can tell how fast my Daughter is traveling from her Frigging Cell Phone, Verizon Wireless offers this technology on to entice Parents to sign with them. Also nobody needs to tell you "Who" they think is cheating, Just that it's happening and "Some" of us "Stupid" people know it is possible. I have several friends that work for Northrup Guidance that it's a "Easy Deal" to make happen. Jerry is right about the Light Temp reader it does exist and if you are creative you could hook it to a delay box and have it "Make the Car Leave" but that is only the first half of the problem.

,

Tallest tires, lowest air pressure and figure out how to induce a consistent bog?

Locomotion Racing
http://www.geocities.com/locomotionracing

Ed, I could name a couple that you don't know about that were caught and aren't racing anymore so there is no purpose in naming them. Also, I'm too busy building stuff for racers to actively partricipate in the racing game much these days, so I'm not about to waste my time and money going out looking for racers who may be cheating with a device of some sort. We're pretty much racing the local circuts around here which pay better than NHRA does anyway, and there are FEW repeat winners. I'm pretty sure nobody is cheating here. But if I see someone cheating, I'll be sure to let him know.

I do know that sometimes things are EGO driven, and rules go out the window (politics - Big business). So it would be ludicrous to assume that it wasn't happening in drag racing. Here's an example for ya'. Not the light deal but EGO driven just the same - you can fill in the name. Past World Champ! When delay boxes were no longer allowed, NHRA's rule read something like "not allowed in car". Soooo, they stuck the box in his jacket pocket and hooked it up with the seat belts. Of course they didn't reason that HE was "in the car". He won a WDRS meet at the time and was tossed for the event and had to count the event as entered with ZERO Points. The runner-up was then checked for legality, and his '64 Mustang (I believe) was tossed to for the wheelbase being TOO LONG.

I can give you another example of a well known racer I caught, shall we say, less than legal, and I confronted him about it. He changed it right there. Another racer was caught ON TAPE last year releasing his button VERY early. NHRA didn't even want to look at the tape. But his lights were less than stellar the rest of the year. I guess I'll have to call those HERESAY, because I'm not giving names.

Michael B. Catching the Comp guy was quite by accident. A guy took a photo and the fighter pilot like cross-haired sensors showed up very clearly in the photo. Pure Luck!

So it all comes down to cheating. Why would I think anyone is cheating? Hell. Everyone in Stock has a completely legal set of heads -- ?? Nobody in stock had to purchase new pistons this year -- ?? Nobody has lightened cranks in Stock -- ?? The combustion chamber and crank rule in SS just had to be made to "EVOLVE" rather than to "make legal" the cheaters that already had them. Jim Skelley just thought he'd poll the racers about delay boxes because he didn't have anything else to do!!! Yeah! I'm wrong. NOBODY WOULD CHEAT to satisfy their EGO.

Jerry

I got it. To foil the light readers -


Other lights placed well away from the tree pointed at the car that would flash in a ramdom sequence as compared to the countdown.

Think?

I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

JRyan, you are correct in your post a couple pages back about the sensor releasing first and the driver releasing (a fake) on the bottom. It is normal for the driver to watch the bottom and release the button at a normal time just as if he were actually releasing the car. (also most use an internal and external brake for checking purposes) However, some are so brave that they just throw a hand up in the air when the car leaves. These are easy to catch. (That is if anyone wanted to catch them.) I have seen officials taken to a spot where they could watch this happen on two occasions. The driver was so late that he was releasing the button when the car was 2 ft. in the air. Nothing was done. That is one of the reasons you aren't seeing protests. Since nothing is being done, more and more people are using the theory "if you can't beat them, join them". And now you see certain racers looking for ways to better their odds.

Do away with trans brakes? They can't even be kept out of stock where they are illegal to begin with.

Real time GPS is now old technology as MarkT stated. The six satelite link is all you need. I think you really only need a 3 link as at least 2 are used for elevation.

One way to keep the nose up and kill a little et is to sutter the engine or just hit the line loc button and engage the burnout limiter. I think both of these are illegal but aren't enforced.

One other thing. Today I was shown a product that changes the di electric properties of fuel. Wonder how long that has been out there? Supposedly can't be spectrograph detected but I doubt that.

no offense, but some of you people are nuts.

I'm just curious...if I had some sort of computer controlled, automatic hit the dial, GPS whatever system, then why in the hell have I moved my super stocker from SS/JA to SS/HA to SS/EA to SS/BS. I thought I was doing it to drive the finish line better. Was it all just a cover?

Here's an open invite to anyone who thinks I'm cheating...bring a $1000 wherever and whenever you'd like and have at it. Look at whatever you want to look at. My cars are so simple you'll be embarrassed.

As for delay boxes, no I don't want them. It takes the undisciplined racer that can't hit the bottom yellow and makes him much better. Kind of like blocking. So there you go...if you suck and are looking for a quick fix, vote yes to delay boxes.

But I've also got some bad news...at the big bracket races, where everyone has delay boxes, Peter, Scotty, etc. still dominate...double 0 something everytime down the track. Those that suck will get better, but those that are good will be great.

This is supposed to be a competition, not welfare. If you want a random winner, go buy lottery tickets.

Great quote! Statistics prove that 96% of those people who win a lottery are back to the same economic level they were before winning the lottery within five years. The road to success is wide open, not blocked by the deviousness of a chosen few. All you have to do is go to your local track and watch. There are always those who rise to the top, just as there are those who will always make money wherever they are.

well said danny.

dj raiser

Good post, Dan.

The stories show... if you cheat, you WILL get caught!

Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

cheating or just good old raw talent,you know some people are gifted i believe in certain things they do .reacting to light bulbs as they turn on,some find it easier than others,natural ability,these racers that are winning more than others have this on their side.peter,dan,the d,frank brothers, to name a few........

"""Tallest tires, lowest air pressure and figure out how to induce a consistent bog?""""




Myron,,, I can do that!!!!! only problem is as soon as they seen the flying toilet,,,,I would get tossed...............could do it on a fuel injected car fairly easy BUT most of them are still way to quick to leave on first yellow,,,even with all the tricks and the bog......I really believe I could get a U/sa and slower to work as long as it was still quick enough to run the index........could be fun.....hey,,, and you could drink a coke while your were leavng the line

Yea, leave it on the dash or in a cupholder and it wouldn't even spill! lol


Locomotion Racing
http://www.geocities.com/locomotionracing

Thanks Dan for making that post. And it would appear that you're not the center of NHRA's concern if you're so willing to offer your equipment up for inspection.

Why then, and who, is NHRA giving in to. There must be a handful of guys around the contry who NHRA has been made aware of. Enough for them to make the offer.

Personally - I want whatever it takes to make the starting line fair.

I guess as the Devils Advocate - there still needs to be a solution. No one has commented on the light reader rememdy I proposed.

And if it can foil their attempts we're halfway home. If that works and there are still delay boxes being used we would still need to cross that bridge.

I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

i say make them legal, then maybe i can beat fletch!

dj raiser

If you are going to accuse someone of a light reader or bring up an ex comp world champ (or someone letting a button go way after the car takes off) etc then you should bring names into it to bring some validity to back up your case. Otherwise it is just another rumor without a backbone and is considered dismissed.

Things being "possible" and things being acutally done in the feild we are in is a BIG difference.

Okay BOO, you're right. Gotta have a name. How about BOO did it? Funny how YOU want NAMES, but can't find the balls to post your own.

Dan, you're not even close to being on the who dunnit list. I wish I had a buck for each time I've defended you from a critic. There's no replacement for seat time.

Jerry

I've seen Craig Bourgeois taked his 430 lexus to No Problem and leave off the top bulb. How you say, he had his right knee up to his chest and by the time his foot was on the gas pedal , he would be very close. It was somewhat consistent. I know if you don't foot brake often enough it is very hard to be consistent by not using blinders.

Greg


p.s. don't buy Craig's daily driver

.

As good as you are at the finish line why do you think that you need to drive it better? Are things getting tighter at the stripe?

Oh this is too easy !!

C'mon !

It's the OTHER guys that have the "stuff" giving Dan fits!!
right? heh, heh.....

Now then. Back to NHRA's request........

I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

I posted back on page 9...
>> When I'm chasing, I feel bad if I can't drive the stripe down to .015 or better. When I'm being chased, I can double-oh my opponent *sometimes*, but many more times, it gets to be an ugly hogging of the stripe... I've been taking a lot of .040-.050 stripes this year when getting chased. That's another .03 I have to make up on the tree! There have been numerous rounds I've lost primarily because my opponent simply had a faster car than me. Why do you think Fletcher's building a faster combination for Super Stock? Just wait til he gets that thing on the track... his win percentage is going to go up even higher.
<<

It's so much easier driving the stripe as the faster car that it's not even funny. Dan's investment will likely pay off very quickly. And then you'll see other people figure that out, and we'll see even more Modified cars in the future. The same thing is happening in Stock, as Tim Griffith has tried to point out. Yeah, anybody *can* win with anything... but the percentages change dramatically depending on what you're driving. More cars are being built based on what can win on Sunday rather than just what is a neat combination.

I miss the Killer V's... :-)


Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

Michael,

You make it tough for me to use confrontational language towards you when you post replies without getting upset or even using the shock type writing I like to use. Your posts are way to long, but your a gentlemen and a better man than I.

My post are aggressive and designed to be that way to get attention to the subject at hand. I'm sure its obvious to most, but some take it personal, you don't. Of coarse cheating with delay devices and counters is possible, I don't believe its currently being used in stk/ss by any of the top players or anyone for that matter.

I could not agree with you more, that faster cars are better. But its only an advantage if you were not allowed to build one. Racing is expensive, but as long as everyone has access to the same combo's there is no unfair advantage. If you can't afford it, I'm sorry but that's life. No one forces us to race. Being able to race competitively is not a god given right, nor is it in our constitution.

Everyone wants fairness, but pointing fingers and making allegations because your not winning races comes from racers own lack of skills not others taking it away from them. How come there is never a top player on here saying racers are cheating? Are all these top players cheating, and they have all conspired against us less talented racers. This issue has been blow way out of proportion, NHRA does need to make any changes to the current rules regarding delay devices.

Ed Brice

It seems that the faster cars have an advantage. I used that as a factor when when I picked the cars I chose to race. But, I am always fascinated by people like Jody Lang and Tommy Mattingly who win consistently in slower cars. I still have yet to absorb all I observe about racing the slow cars that hits me in the logical center knowing that you can win with anything when you cut a .000 light and run dead on. The Mr. Dirt series of articles published in Super Stock magazine continues to intrique me. I guess what I am saying is that the guys racing slower cars should not be discouraged, there is a way to win. I have always had the opinion that the worst redlight should lose in a race for it to be fair. But, since the rules have not been set that way, people use every advantage.

Ed, I agree with your statement wholeheartedly in that the current set of rules are so inconsistent, the issues are so many and complex and evidence is overwhelming that something is not working and NHRA is ostriching about it. I, for one, am for eliminating anything that could be considered a technical aid that affects the car on the starting line. That includes delay buttons, switches, two-steps, etc. etc. In my opinion such equipment is in the same category as distance counters, GPS devices, electronically controlled acceleration, and so on. People who clamour about claiming that all that is necessary to race a car against the ?big boys? make me think of Monday morning quarterbacks who love to complain but wouldn't stand a chance on field because they are not trained, prepared or conditioned. Being a good driver takes a lot of effort and time and mental preparation. And since this is a free country, there is nothing blocking us all from doing what it takes to be as good a driver as we can be. However, that's as level as the playing field gets. There will always be somebody with extraordinary skill and preparation who will be consistently better than most everybody else.

I don't mind getting schooled by someone who outdrives me. I do mind losing a race when I know I could have done better. I would like NHRA to make every effort to make it where that is the only issue, and not that I lose to a better delay device.

&#8220If you want random winners, buy a lottery ticket.&#8221 LOL! I still like that statement.

I don't mind getting schooled by someone who outdrives me. I do mind losing a race when I know I could have done better. *** "I would like NHRA to make every effort to make it where that is the only issue, and not that I lose to a better delay device.****"

Me too. But they asked this question see.....................................

and now what. (?)





I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

,

"JUST SAY NO"

Dick Butler 3529

Dwight:

EXCELLENT POST!!!

SEB

Hi all
I had a bench racing thought or two on this rule proposal... The people that will oppose it most, are the ones that could really use it the most. The same people who have never compared their bottom bulb method with a top bulb method will never change their style, and thus vote the whole thing down. Like Fletcher said... keep using your method that nets a .10 or more average range at the starting line. The really good racers don't want you getting better.

The other side of the coin is this... how would delay racing change things for the fans? How would delay racing change class runoffs? Would it be more entertaining?

I think the guys that hold performance advantages of .01 on up would win more races due to delay devices. The guy behind .01 could just stay in the pits, because he may not be able to catch a lucky redlight, or a napping fast guy. So class racing could become more predictable and maybe more boring.

It would also be most shameful to have legal delay boxes, and cut a .07 light. Everybody would laugh at you!

The racing is getting tougher every year. There is a new crop of young guns jumping in cars and winning each year. Its just reality, that as you age, your night vision gets worse. Delay boxes could narrow the gap of 60 year old men to the 18-30 old men. We all know the wide range of day and night racing, you have to go through to get a big wally. I feel I would be better at night, and not as prone to losing because of my 50 year old, cloudy lens eyes. I don't feel like letting someone operate on my eyes to get back my night vision. I know old guys are way game at night. May as well bet on the young guy on that Saturday night, 9PM 3rd round.

So as an older person I would favor the change, if it was even worth the time to race the class. Don't worry, I didn't vote, and don't intend on racing a SS car again. I am just glad to have raced in the good old days (like 1999)

ex SS-L racer

Lots of wisdom in Dwight's posting.

I say let's do away with electronics and buttons. If caught, big fine, a minimum 5 year suspension from any classes and also confiscate the parts. Having electronics is just for lazy people that want it easy. Just in the same fashion as you prepare your car, prepare your own mind and body for racing.

For the record, I would be in favor of eliminating ALL electonics including 1, 2 or 3 step RPM limiters if ALL forms of electronics were (other than ignition) were eliminated. Yes, even on stick shift cars. I guess I wouldn't even care if ignition boxes were eliminated, just allow factory electronic ignitions with factory brain boxes.
But...also for the record, if trans-brakes are allowed in SS, then electro-magnetic clutch release with comparable long-throw or hydraulic release buttons should be allowed. Apples to Apples.

NHRA #7494 SS/H
1970 AMC AMX 390
"Best Appearing" @ NHRA '06 Pacific Sports Nationals
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