Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Dick, the complaints were the spec heads were not fair to all brands, but the flow charts, and circle track data I had from Brodix said otherwise. The other brands, mopar and ford, never even tried to compete, so how can anyone complain about how unfair it is, was what I meant. All three brands would, and could be competitive, I've seen it in the circle track reports. The only people who supported me were the chevy guys, and it started to take off, but the constant negative bull**** from just one cry baby, just got too much to put up with. Believe me, since I've closed, lots of racers have called, and begged to get another chance, but after closing, and everything calming down, we decided to not re- open. Maybe when I retire in a few years I will try again. Will see how this thing plays out.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

And Dick, I think with a sanctioned body such as NHRA, these little clitches won't happen. Imagine if Jon Kaase had built a ford spec motor to compete at my track. I'd probably be the one crying. Ha!!!

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

If you have a spec sheet of all the rules could you post it for us to read in one post?Thanks
Seems like a viable class to me.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I will. Will take me a minute to drag them out of where my wife stashed them.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I have always wanted to class race, but to wade through the rule book and figure out a competive class is hard and then having to round up all the parts that are hard to find. This would be a way for some like me to have a chance to get there. I have always raced with a stick car class with bracket type engines. I have a question or 2, like on engine size any bore and stroke or limit it to factory bores? or if you run spec heads why would a chevy guy want claim a set of ford heads? I like the ideas floating around. I get to race with a lot of the old production modified cars and most are 4 link cars.I think weight limit with any type rear suspension,factory rwd car.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Dick, I'll try to do the best from memory right now. 1. pounds per C.I.D. .01 spot for every half lb. per cube. Started at 4 lbs. down to 11.5 lbs. 2. Brodix spec head, , cast intake only. 3. Dry sumps add 50 lbs. external pump, add 25 lbs. 2 - 4's add fifty lbs. 2 speed powerglide, deduct 8% weight, 3 speed deduct 5%, all this based against a clutch assisted trans. 4. True clutchless add 150 lbs. We had our own P and G gauge, fuel tester, scales, and and an oxygen sensing device I believe I bought from George Bryce, (don't quote me on that) that would check for any fuel additives in the oil. We had an altered that was a few hundreths ahead of us, but he redlighted before the finals that year, at 5 lbs. Last two years we won, once with a powerglide in a vega at 9.5 lbs by .0002, and the next year in a cobalt with a G-force at 11 lbs. by 1 10 thousanths of a second. Just letting you know how deversified, and close it was at different weights, and combos of all types. You have to realise, we had to frame some rules to not exclude cars, because we are in a remote area. But this track has ran no break-out racing since 1967, so we had a base. Touching on the main basics, but you get the drift. The races I'm talking about are the year end BIG SHOOTOUT, in honour of DALE RUFF. A guy that has raced there since it opened, and even won class at Indy in 1970.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I agree 4speedracer, 4 links are fine with me, I don't care either way. Also, nobody with a chevy will want a ford head, or visa-versa. But if a ford, chevy, or mapar is dominant, then another ford chevy, or mopar will claim the same make of head.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

This "movement" is very much like this country.......we know what is good but there is nobody listening anymore. You would have to go to nursing homes to get people interested in this again. It makes too much "racing" sense but there aren't enough people left to care. What a great idea !!!! The young guys rather race with their "joy stick" on a computer screen. Somebody help this country and real racing please.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Also, go watch it on youtube at 11000 rpm cobalt, you will see some of the races there. We never limited bore, or stroke for ease of tear down. We also had a snap-on bore scope to see inside ports and things.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Guess we all know this ain't gonna fly, right? LOL

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Right. But it's just fun to talk about it.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

You're a hard core chevy man and expect everyone to accept that yet you're always quick to criticize those of us that love other makes.

As for sealed motors, it's a fallacy that they all make the same hp and they would never live at high rpm's. Engines would have to be built just like we do in Stock but there would have to be strict limits on modifications.

JimR

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Sorry jim if you are reading in any "criticism". My attempt is to discuss openly Any option out there and if many really think having one of each brand legal can be viable even though it might increase cost of motor for the class, that is great...

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Been there done that,was expensive then and would be now. That being said I would do it again.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

It would fun but everybody has the wrong
idea about this class.
Make it basic, the head deal is easy, Chevy, Ford , and Mopar
all have a good cast head to work in this class.

All head work would be porting with no welding
or epoxy.
No drysump. no high dollar 5-speeds.
This is a keep the cost down, I know its still
going to cost something but keep it simple.

We all know it will not happen but its fun to
dream about the old modified days.

Most of you have heard of Ernie Price,Div 3 SS/FM
He still lives the dream.


Hammer

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I'm really enjoying this stuff, It's good therapy for the motivation I need to get back on this Corvette project. I noticed that some want to be closer to the old modified stuff (love it), and some lean toward more affordable sub-modified (love that as well). Great ideas all around, maybe something along the lines of an entry level or Jr. Modified. Cheaper engine programs to draw the budget racers into the mix. And then another class for the next level of more expensive combinations. Grow the class from entry to top level, in order to bring the maximum entries and enhance this class idea. I see that some think it could/would never happen. I am one of those that builds his own cars. I can tell you that all of my personal cars built at my home have been "Best Engineered Award Winners" and that does'nt happen with the mind set of "it will never happen". So keep beating on this idea, work it, mold it, love it, and you might be suprised what could come of it. Keep talking about it and keep moving foward, narrow down the rules package and develope a program. Then offer it up to the tracks and the HRA's.

Wade Mahaffey

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Need a group of Sons and Daughters of older racers to jump in and express their support and enthusiasm. It can add the racers it would need in the mix. The old guys can afford, can pull out the other motor and enter early. THe Younger group needs to chime in...

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Anything's better then nothing. You could even make it where any motor under 300 C.I. ran 200 cc runners, 301 and up,215, 321 and up 225, 341 and up, 335, just some ideas. But today, it's cheaper running after market 5 speeds, clutch assisted, then to try and make the old gear boxes live. I think by not giving a weight break to a powerglide, might be good, because it would eliminate the auto. Believe me, i'm a clutch guy, but i've been involved with both, and I can't get a powerglide to run with a clutch car.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Just thinking. Would not limiting rear gear ratios to rear tire size help limit extra high revs from engines. IE 5.88gears with 32" tire

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Nothing against the .90 racers (Those will always be around) but I would MUCH rather watch Super Mod than Top Sportsman or Top Dragster. The fans would LOVE the variety and could really identify with individual cars. My belief is that old Modified racers would come out of the woodwork to somewhat relive their old Modified days. I was just a bit too young to run Modified back in the day but would seriously take a look at doing this. Guess my thoughts are what cars would be allowed to run this. Tubbed cars with 4 links or possibly keeping it similiar to what it was when it began in the late seventies with slapper bars?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

People want to here a certain amount of RPM. Maybe, 6.20, and 31in. tall tire. Possibly have a spec tire with heads, and possibly a spec gear. Slapper bars are out my friends. Most cars of that era have been backhalfed.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I love the high rpm smallblocks banging gears as i have 6.50 gears and 32" tires in my old modified car and it still hooks good with its ladder bar leaf suspension. Evan still have a old liberty geared hemi 4spd that was in the car in the early 70s

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Randy, Did you post the total package your track ran , cu in heads chassis etc?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I think that a lb per cubic inch rule would work a lot better than a limit on the ci. That way you can allow for big blocks to come into the equation, this the possibility to have even more cars into the equation.

I love the idea. I have a 70 Dart I was building to run SS Modified, but this would be more fun by a long shot!

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I believe adding big blocks to the class would add complexity and additional costs, therefore, it should be small blocks only in the same fashion as Pro Stock trucks used to be.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I could see that. Was just an idea I had to allow more of the sitting and/or bracket cars to move into the class with ease, thus having a higher car count. The complexity would obviously go up, but that is going to happen with higher car counts.

If this class would ever get off the ground I would jump in with both feet, whichever path it would go down!

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

No Dick, we had a lengthy couple of pages. Will try to see how to post without typing it all. I think I can answer most questions from memory, so shoot. We also had a minimum weight for each pound per C.I. Safety was the same as NHRA, with the exception, they didn't need to get new belts and net every 2 years. If it looked safe, our insurance was fine with it.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

We actually had 4 lower class cars called stock, modified stock, stock option, and hot stock. At the end of the year, they would run their own top eliminator shootout, based on performance indexes. No lower class car ever had to spot an upper class car, regardless of ET. It was a first to the line wins. The upper class cars started with C11.5 C11, C10.5, C10, C9.5, C9, C8.5. C8, C7.5, C7, C6.5, C6, C5.5, C5, C4.5, C4. 1 tenth per half pound per C.I. We've had races decided by .0001 agaist a 5 pounder, and a 10.5 pounder. We ran .4 pro tree only in all classes, and probably didn't have 10 redlights, in 8 years. One night a year we gave out $100 to the best light, and most times it took a perfect .400 to win. We also had a hundred dollar bounty on any car who won class 3 weeks in a row. If he remained undefeated, he got the $100, if he got beat, the other guy collected the bounty. And for big blocks, we allowed a certain head from brodix, and they were getting competitive.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Did you have a good participation in that class?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

We had around 8 stockers, 6 modified stock, six stock option, and 9 hot stock until the hot stockers boycotted us. They boycotted us because they thouight the indexes were unfair. We had .03 between hotstock and stock option. If any car in any class hits there index in the lower classes, it affects all. Such as, a 10 lb. modified stock runs off a 7.40 , a 10 lb. stock option runs off a 7 flat, and a 10 lb hot stock runs off a 6.70. The closest any of these classes could get to was .2. So if a stock option car ran a 6.90, he hits all classes down a tenth, unless there was more then .2 between classes. It's not as complicated as I make it sound, and I was involved with cars in all 4 little classes to prove they could all run under these rules and be competitive. One night, between hot stock and stock, there were 9 cars within .07 of each other. In the upper classes, we had 4 dragsters, two 23 T's, one don ness camaro, a balkhalfed mustang, and falcon, three vegas, two wagons, a cobalt, 6 camaros, one being Ricky Ray's old car, a thunderbird from Bickel, an olds firenza, a 64 nova, and others that may come to mind. I've never seen a shootout decided by more then a .01.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Randy, Do you think there were really too many classes?SHould people actuallly try to fit the class instead of the classes fitting the people? Two CLass Max( one better)
Add wt, use FG or carbon fiber. With time it would happen if people started to support it.
Minimum wt,maximum Cubic inch or One cubic inch range?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

In like the lower classes, were there two many? Yes, for NHRA, but you would have to know our area, and participants. In the upper classes, no. I think when you have an index of .01 per half lb. in the eighth, and .015 for quarter, it takes care of itself. We ran dragsters against superstockers, with a brodix spec head only in upper classes, and racing was extremely close. We were real loose on chassis limitations, and actually, the door cars won more then the pro stock type, or dragsters. But some of the superstock guys were close to NHRA standards in performance, so they knew what they were doing. We went in 1\2 lb. increments to fit everybody in. It was a survival mode, but it worked out good there. One 23T driver could make anything competitive, and he gave everyone fits. In the lower classes, they were limited to 200 CC heads, in 20 degree ford, 23 degree chevy, and 18 degree chrysler, iron only. No porting, except for hot stock.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

But Dick, with all that being said, I like one wt. like 3000lbs. one motor size, like 330 or anything reasonable. It's just that on a local level, you have to diversify, on a divisional level, I think the head, cam, rocker arm, trans. and tire companys would eat this up. And, I'm sold about the pro tree, it's the best way to go. I do know that for a fact. It is possible, and like I said, the head companys could help police it, especially with the $500 protest, and exchange. Send the winner, and or, the fastest time recorded racer's head back to manufactorer, for verification. One time Dave Rodder from brodix was at the 360 nationals, and they had him look at a winners heads, and his comment was, "Ray Charles could see that head is illegal", and out he went.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Simple, last qualifier gets first shot at the motor or heads, which ever you decide to make "claimer".

Right on up the ladder, next slowest gets second option

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

When I used to race the dirt tracks, our whole cars were claimers. that could be bought by anyone that attended the race. I am not saying that the whole car should be for sale but letting other people that want to enter the class buy the heads would stop bogus heads

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Randy, Since it would be a start up class with NHRA and people would still want to run NHRA events in a legal form couldnt the specs make the cars legal for one of the Mod SS classes. They wouldnt be class winner but Points meets would still be legal and fun on the dial in end of it. Keep the chassis Legal rules and MAKE the motor combo allowed legal at the wt.? Then if guys support the class in numbers local or points meet races could be added for fun..

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Why dial-in? Make it heads-up, no-dial in. A fair comparison will be a SS/CS car type, but with a designated specific approved cylinder head.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I don't like the 400 pro tree concept unless all cars are leaf spring and stock front suspension. A Super/Gas, 4-Link, strut type car could be worth .05-.10 in reaction time. The cars will look funny when they start putting 24 inch funny car goodyears on the front end to minimize roll out. You need to have the possibility of a red light start to bring the driver into play as well. The .500 full sportsman tree is the most fair with reguard to reaction time advantage. Also it places an additional chance for any race to go either way. If you allow an advantage that the car provides, and this advantage removes/reduces the drivers ability from the equation. This is the very thing that brought about delay boxes. If you run on anything other than a sportsman tree you will be allowing an advantage to the quicker reacting car, it's as simple as that. Talking about the cost going up...now you need a super/gas car, and then add 850 pounds to meet a 3000 pound minimum. A full tree there is no advantage for the quick reactiing car. When you make the car do something....it cost money. When you make the driver do something, it cost "0"

Wade Mahaffey

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Todays ss/cs engine rules way too liberal as I read whats going on here.. More like a smallblock SS/H Or SS/I car with a smaller cam, say .500 or .550, non- sheetmetal intake, a spec carb, (600-750) etc. I believe a 9.00 weight break at min 3000lbs. (333cu in) would satisfy everybody, the Ford and Chrysler guys included...top out at a maximum of say 3300lbs at 367cu in ...

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

You guys are taking this alittle to far. This was to be a deal
like it was in the old days with a less expensive engine.

No pro tree, no bull sh*^.
just keep it simple


Hammer