Re: The damage recently done
 

For further reading.

http://www.planethoustonamx.com/main/group-19.htm

http://scrambler1969.blogspot.com/20...partsmods.html

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature15.html

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You're right that stock doesn't have nearly as much stock as it used to, but everyone has aftermarket pistons, rods, valves, cams, etc. Those rules are the same for all combinations, and it's a lot different than completely replacing an intake with a much better one, a completely different carburetor that flows 1.5x or more what the old one did, and a cam with larger lift. It's obvious stock has progressed a lot, but my car still has the heads that came on it in 1970, same with the untouched intake manifold, type of carburetor (yes it's an aftermarket one but the same design), etc. None of the new cars are as close to stock as mine, although some are close just with messed up HP factors. Even the ones like yours, essentially the motor that came in the Mustang GTs before the 5.0, have more compression that the stock ones.

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Is the case being made that the parts in question are correct and backed up by legitimate sources, or that 'other cars have illegitimate parts and therefore it is ok'? Or is the argument that parts are unavailable and superceded parts are deemed necessary? If the latter, parts with improved performance capabilities should carry additional horsepower, as has been done with some aftermarket heads, etc.

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http://www.planethoustonamx.com/main/group19_5.jpg

It appears that it was an over the counter option that other makes of cars have got approved and I believe no different to what NHRA has allowed for use as applicable to the 1962 Plymouth with the 383 - Two/4BBL, another over the counter parts package and other allowances such as the aluminum intakes for the 273 Chrysler, Fords, Single 4BBl Hemi and many others.

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Those cars SS also were built with lite valves and C8AX NASCAR mech lifter .600 lift cam

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In my research it appears you need to go find any dealer performance catalog from any manufacturer and get approved whatever parts were sold over the counter. I dont see why the stretch is not made to put the cross ram on all amc V-8 engines because it does not specify what motor it goes on. Stock is nearing its end and like i said i am going to complete my bucket list before we are merged into some other grand plan.

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These changes are making Nostalgia SS look better and more legit all the time :rolleyes:

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Stock ended over 27 years ago anyway. Why all the bitching?

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I'll agree with much of what you said here Andrew, as long as the slower half of Stock isn't included with that, because I think the slower rollers are much more stock like than the faster half of the category...one glaring bit of proof; I don't see slower rollers with wheelie bars, or a mention of Cal-tracs on them. Furthermore, I think I can safely assume that the major percentage of engine parts on all fwd combos are stock (only the camshaft and needed supporting parts are aftermarket on my car)....I think that applies also to the R/S(A), and lower classes too (maybe to some of the quicker versions of the slower roller classes)?

My car is about as stock as stock can get, which is one of the reasons I still dislike NHRA reducing the indexes .3 seconds, and changing our altitude correction factors to resemble the Super Classes. NHRA, PLEASE EITHER GIVE US BACK THOSE .3 OF A SECOND, AND/OR GIVE US BACK OUR STOCK/SUPER STOCK ALTITUDE CORRECTION FACTORS....THEY WERE MORE FAIR TO ALL CLASSES, AND TO RACERS IN ALL TRACKS!!!

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Isn't it amazing that the guys that are complaining the most, are GM guys and it is them who have been the benefactors of probably more rule changes and superseded parts as anyone. Remember unported heads and no combustion mods in Super Stock? It was the small block Chevy racers that pushed the rules as much as, if not more than anyone to get the head rules in Super Stock changed. Remember when Bowtie blocks with siamesed Cylinders were legal before anyone else could use a siamesed block? How about 327 intakes on 283's or how the small block Chevys were mysteriously allowed 550 gram connecting rods when the old spec was 570 grams? I am not an AMC racer but I think it is about time that they were allowed some enhancements that some of the other brands have been allowed. After all, isn't the AHFS supposed to take care of any runaway combinations? This is pure speculation on my part, but just maybe the NHRA tech department has gotten tired of all the GM guys complaining about every little thing and decided to really give you guys something to complain about. Or maybe the tech guys thought it would be nice to see something other than Camaros in Stock and Super Stock. Hey GM guys, keep complaining because it is helping the AMC's,Mopars and Fords and we need more of those brands in Stock and Super Stock.

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That is just the tip of the iceberg...

Let's add the enhancements on cylinder heads, pistons and cams that have taken place; they all mostly started with GM cars.

I believe if the rules allows enhancements for one make, they should be the same for other makes.

So to Billy and Paul...
Do you believe it is okay to allow the 1962 Plymouth 383/343 HP with over the counter parts that adds two 4;BBL's, cylinder heads with bigger valves a a different cam compete and not do so with the AMC's with the same approach minus the cylinder heads???

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The 62 Plymouth 383/343 was accepted by the tech dept in 1962 and has been allowed since 1962.

The AMC over the counter modification parts were not accepted until just recently by someone. That means it must have been turned down by the tech dept in the late 60's and has been denied for several decades.

In recent years several non-stock, bolt-on, across the counter modification parts that are only listed in OEM accessory catalogs have been added which is in direct contridiction to the rulebook. Maybe whoever is accepting this stuff needs to be reminded of what their own rulebook states for Stock class!

"Section 10A, page 3 ENGINE: Must be same make and year as car used, aftermarket NHRA-accepted cylinder blocks permitted. Equipment other than original factory-installed prohibited. Any special equipment export-kit (superchargers, dealer-installed options, etc.) automatically disqualifies car."

Wanna bet that rule gets deleted for next year?

Maybe it will be changed to..."Across the counter parts listed in accessory catalogs by the OEM for bolt-on modifications will now be accepted no matter how long ago the catalog was printed or how many times the original tech dept turned the parts down."

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Not anymore...since 2009

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I know you're talking to the other Paul but I'll add my 2 cents. The 383/343 had a different HP factor that was about right where as the single four early 383s were never competitive until the HP was finally dropped in the 2Ks. The cam, 445 compared to 430 lift means very little as the 445 lift lost 25 thousandths or so to the lash for the solid lifters. The manifold for the 343 hp wasn't some new high tech mani, it first appeared in late 1957, mine is dated 10-57, they were first used on the 58 Furys with the dual quad 350 like in the movie Christine. The larger exhaust valve is almost meaningless in performance. Allowing a Holley 3310 which flows 800CFM over a 600 CFM carb in today's Stock or Super Stock without changing the HP factor is quite a gift, I have 343 AMCs on my mind right now. 67 Marlin in the 10s in stock, it could happen in the right hands.

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Can't figure out all the complaining. As long as you're putting shoe polish on the window what does it matter. I am not a naive newcomer either, have been racing stock,super stock, and comp starting in 1966. Nhra 325 stk,ss,comp.

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Like Dwydendorf commented; the rules seems to have preference on certain car makes and are not applied consistently across the board.

Let's take an example as to "Dealer Installed Options"; how did the Saleen and Roush cars got in the books?

There are so many items such as options and modified parts that have been allowed in the books and suddenly everyone is up on arms and get their shorts all wadded up when AMC's get some allowances like other makes!

We can all point to how many things NHRA has allowed throughout the years. Another example is when they allowed automatic transmissions in the 1967 Galaxie 427 with two 4BBL's; they were a stick car only from the factory. When I asked NHRA about it, they said since an automatic trans was available in the Galaxie model, they allowed it although it was not available with the engine.

Another example was many years ago when a friend was thinking of running Stock Eliminator with a 396/375 HP Chevy. He buys a set of OEM pistons and also the replacement TRW pistons. Purchases the latest Lunati stocker cam and calls me because all his valves were hitting the piston dome. I check the engine and there was no way the cam would clear the pistons. I make a few calls and find out about the machining and massaging of the valve reliefs and later on the glass beading to hide the mods to make the cam work. He choose to just bracket race in lieu of modifying his pistons. Therefore, could we assume the pistons were modified prior to submission to NHRA for approval?

..and the list goes on...

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We still race HEADS UP WHEN MEETING A CAR IN THE SAME CLASS. This is not Pro ET. If a car get an advantage with superceeded parts with no HP increase, it decreases the other guy's chance to win these types of races. Im sure the same thing would happen in 1966

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The old days of Farmer's oversight are long gone!

NHRA lost control of tech many years ago with the buddy system, their decisions by the higher ups overriding tech inspector decisions, lawsuits threats from racers, pressure from manufacturer's and sponsors and much more that has transpired.

So in a nutshell, the way I see it is if NHRA puts it in the books and approves it, then they deemed it good.

The only time I have seen NHRA remove a car combination was when they banned Bob Dennis from running the Oldsmobile with the 260/4-BBL QJ carburetor. Although it had been in the books for many years and the option was available in the export versions of the car, it still got pulled from the books.

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can i just get the 459 intake i am the ONLY 283 in the world who cannot run it ???

please ... jeff who do i call ???

captain jack
its just a big joke anymore race now we will be gone soon .

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WOW! I get off the computer awhile to go work on a car and see all this!? Glad I'm messing with something that should never be affected by this, although I still have to wait on a HP change before I get real deep in things...

BTW, out west here, the yards are full of old iron and parts, even AMC's. I'd be glad to point out a few places...69 Rebel 4dr/290 anyone?

But I am still building a 6 cylinder dime rocket (thanks for the help Billy), and this issue will pass I am sure.

Wanna see some crying? Build a big-dollar demolition derby car! They perfected it!

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I wonder if these parts book parts are going to set a precedent. How about fast burn heads for the Chevys ? Or the stage 2 package for the buicks , or the ram air 5 for the pontiacs? How about the direct connection parts for the mopars? This whole deal is getting stranger and stranger.

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Ya want an AMX? here are a couple of em....

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/3200535312.html

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It's fun listening to the whinning when the big 3 cars have been getting enhancements since the stoneage.Allow the dealer parts,if documented and put a factor on them and go on to whinning about something else,like PAYOUTS.

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x2!

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It happens that I know of some racers that have tried to get the Stage II and Ram Air V packages approved.

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Jack, the way that I'm seeing it what you want is an old GM Performance Parts catalog. You go in, find the listings and pictures for a Z-28 intake, carb and off road cam and just put them in the car. GM made them, Chevy sold them "over the counter" and would even install them for you! Seems logical to me! Let the AHFS sort it out.

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They've been trying that for years. How's that working out for them?

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Ya know Eddie, when you're right, you're right.
But "put a factor on them"! The AHFS won't fix them.
i think that 10 for the carb, 10 for the intake, 10 for the cam and 10 for the heads sounds about right. That way, somebody can build an AMX at 355 HP and see if it's competitive. If it's not then ask for HP back and the AHFS has fixed it the right way.
Sounds fair to me, want to start a new thread about payouts?

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I like that.Now throw some more HP on all that "aluminium" (British pronounciation) in all those BBC chevies that need them because they can't find decent castings anymore.

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Well the aluminum headed 396s do have a higher HP rating

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Looking back at the parts books from 1970 would be an eye opener. I know more about Chevys because I worked two summers at the Chevy dealership in my hometown. I spent $26 for a 327/350 hp cam for a 283 in 1967. If you go by what's in the parts books and not how the cars came from the factory things would be a whole lot different. The 396 guys could run the zl-1 cam and the 850 carb. The small block guys would get the off road cam which was made for the trans am cars. All the manufacturers had high performance items in their parts books but they were never allowed into stock until the last few years. The reason that these parts were not in the NHRA class guide is that first they didn't come from the factory that way and second Farmer would have never and didn't put them in the guide.

Oh and by the way, the police interceptor manifold was only approved for the cobra jets for super stock and not stock in 1968. To suddenly after 40 plus years find these documents that support letting these parts in is a little suspect at best.

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Greg, not that I'm a FFFord guy but the original 50 681/2 CJs had aluminium intakes. The passenger cars didn't but, NHRA isn't going to start checking VIN#s to see which are which so they let all of the 68s have them. The 69s shouldn't have gotten the aluminium intakes.

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How long untill we are gone? a couple of weeks? End of this year? In 5 years? What do all of you think of this? Truth to this? or old guys whining because we are not following the 1975 rule book?

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Billy, those cars if you remember ran SS at the 1968 winter nationals. The reason that manifold was never in the book for stock is that it was never approved for stock.

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Shortly after the OEM's stop ruining Stock and Super Stock.

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Greg, my point being that they are now legal for Stock just like a T-Bolt or a 68 Hemi Cuda and the aluminium intake came "stock" on them. It did NOT come on any 69s.

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Ford's 428 Cobra Jet engine made its "en masse" drag racing debut at the eighth annual National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) Winternationals held from February 2 - 4, 1968, at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds in Pomona, California. Ford Motor Company sponsored five drivers (Gas Ronda, Jerry Harvey, Hubert Platt, Don Nicholson, and Al Joniec) to race six 428 CJ-equipped Mustangs. The Mustangs raced in the C Stock Automatic (C/SA, 9.00 - 9.49 lbs. per advertised horsepower), Super Stock E, and Super Stock E Automatic (SS/E manual transmission, SS/EA automatic transmission, 8.70 - 9.47 lbs per advertised horsepower) classes. The engine lived up to expectations as four of the cars made it to their respective class finals. Al Joniec won both his class (defeating Hubert Platt in an all-CJ final) and the overall Super Stock Eliminator (defeating Dave Wren) title.

Information from the 428 CJ Registry.

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Todd, I don't think that Jack is whining. I think that he's tongue-in-cheek bitching about the 65-66 283s getting the 327 intake. Which is as wrong as a 290 AMC getting an Edelbrock R4B intake.

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If I'm thinking right. The PI intake is the same casting as the CJ intake except it is aluminum instead of cast iron. Basically the only advantage is the difference in weight between the iron and aluminum. It's not going to make any more power than the CJ intake. But I'm sure the difference in weight is worth .20 :rolleyes:

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Kris, you are correct. Here is some more history on the PI.

The aluminum PI intake is the same as a later-design of the 427MR intake. Early MR intakes had different throttle mount bosses and did not have the machined-in features that allowed fitting the three-fingered rocker oil control baffles used in all FEs (except the 427MR) from 1958-66, so to fit the 427MR intake to a non-427MR engine six extra cutouts at the pushrod holes needed to be machined into the aluminum intake. Note that all FEs would inherit the simpler 427MR rocker oil control baffles from 1967-76. By the time the 428PI was developed in 1966, the 427MR intake machining protocol added the extra counterbores to the intake, and also modified the throttle linkage bosses so the intake would work in both 427MR and 428PI applications. As for the penny-pinching part, the PI did not earn a special intake casting, but 1966 was the first year of both the of the Chrysler 440 and Ford 428, so it was clear some free breathing was in order. It made sense to install the MR aluminum intake onto the 428PI to keep competitive with the 440, even though the intake was not cheap to cast. It wasn't until the 428CJ was born that the accounting department saw a cost-benefit to designing a low-cost iron alternative to the MR intake, so about a month or so after the iron intake was being installed onto 428CJ engines, the 428PI engine lost the aluminum and gained the CJ iron intake, thus making the Ford a more profitable police vehicle.


Seems funny to me that in 1968 the CJ was slotted into the C/SA catagory and you will find it STILL there today. Sounds to me like there are little or no improvements other than just keeping up with the rest of the pack.