Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Count to ten and take a deep breath before you respond guys!

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Sorry I'm done.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Well then, Jason, Lets see what your dog is and where you wanna bring it to hunt. What car do you race? Whats your Competition number? What class? How does it affect you?

As for me having an answer, yep. Sure do. Like I said, I was there when it was OK'd to use. NHRA has their rules and apparently have decided for whatever reason at the moment, they are not wanting us to run items that are safety related when it comes to suspension parts. It is what it is.

And congrats on showing the stock and superstock racing fraternity how much of an idiot you are. We always need a laugh in the winter before Pomona.

We race. We want to be safe. If it wasn't a safety issue, it wouldnt be a huge topic of conversation. It sure is not about the money.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

At the minimum...

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

I think everyone will see a notification from NHRA that will please all concerned next week. Dyno

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

pretty much the same answer we got. And i went ahead and asked the magic question what ever happened to " dedicated to safety"?

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Right out of the rule book! Kind of hard to keep a positive alignment when the brake strut rod's rubber bushings are letting everything move around.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Safety & Strut rod conversation with Bruce @ NHRA
I talked to Bruce today regarding the safety issues with stock strut rods, deflecting and causing the front wheels to skid on cars like my '64 Thunderbolt, they feel that it's OK to have safe Super-stock cars but not stock eliminator!???! Please take the time ASAP to e-mail NHRA's tech department with your safety concerns regarding the use of aftermarket strut rods to control the unsafe movement, during wheel stands and braking! There is no performance advantage here......strictly safety. Tom Nolan A/SA 6015

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Unfortunately, it seems that the safety of the racers is not their concern nor the investment we have in our race cars. Very sad state of affairs NHRA.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Tom Nolan, thanks for your work on this.

Larry

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Broken strut rod photo!

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

WOW!!! From what I've heard people think that going to the urethane bushings is the answer to try and cut down on the deflection but this is what you end up with.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Scary!

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

The urethane bushing WILL break the strut rod. Something needs to flex and you don't want it to be a 45 year old strut.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Years back I had terrible bump-steer issues, so bad that I would change 3 idler arms a season until I started eliminating rubber. I know first hand what it's like to change lanes when applying the brakes on top end. the strut design is OK for the local streets and highways but not the harsh abuse/travel the front suspension takes in one of these high flying stockers or super stockers. I have bent steel struts, I've also broken an inner tie rod end due to the severe bump-steer and worst of all trying to do an alignment or maintain your settings becomes a joke especially the caster and toe. I swore I would never install rubber again, but learned real quick that the harder urethane or synthetic bushings life span was unpredictable and or shorter. Currently my upper and lower control arms have solid bushings and I was going to have Mike Roth from MR2 bush my Idler arm, it just seems that the more rubber eliminated the better it feels.When one of these bushings pops the wheel does rub the inner fender, when this happens @ 130 mph plus it suddenly becomes an amusement park ride, except you hope it's over real soon, and hopefully you don't make contact with anything or anyone in the other lane.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Gentlemen, I have read this thread and all the posts over and over again. I am bracket racer that has no dog in this hunt but will tell you that the car that I own and drive ( sometimes on the street ) has some of the be.st offerings the aftermarket can supply. I say this because the the car was assembled using NHRA stocker rules. It would not take much to make it a legal stocker. What the NHRA has done is an abomination as far as safety is concerned. To say in a letter that this will happen because of skinny front tires, you seriously have to question whether any thought or research was given to that answer. I would be embarrased to give that answer and you should embarrased that you as members of the NHRA pay to have have this person representing you. Has the the NHRA done any research , any R& D or any A B A comparison to come out with this rule. Safety in this sport is job 1. I have no idea what these people are thinking and am glad they don't represent me. There are too many very knowledgeable people in the sport to call upon to settle this problem. I normally don't ramble on like this but I have to say I am with the racers completely on this. SAFETY above all.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Quote of the day. You can't fix stupid!

The seats are one thing, suspension and wheel stands and being able to safely stop is no doubt a safety issue. It seems that the people with cars with this type of suspension, your requests seem to be falling on deaf ears or stupid people in control of safety.

Good luck guys

Sean

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Frank, What did they bush your idler with? Aluminum bushing? What kind of difference did it make? (not to get too far off subject)>

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

SECTION 11: SUPER STOCK, BRAKES AND SUSPENSION: 3, SUSPENSION, Front (Page 5) (2/4/2013)

Must retain complete stock front-suspension system as produced by manufacturer for body used. Lift kits/travel limiters permitted. Sway bar optional. Aftermarket tie rods strut rods with heim joints spherical bearings permitted. Electric shocks prohibited. See General Regulations 3:4.

Just posted

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Thanks Dan!

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Dan you have a pm

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

You forgot one NHRA. I already make the corrections all you have to do is copy and paste it.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Almost 30,000 views, poll, major safety issues and NHRA tech dept still ignores the stake holders! WTF?

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

'''

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Tom, Have you submitted that picture to NHRA?

Seems to me,that's the way to approach this:

You have to tighten the bushing too much to keep the rod from moving in and out when braking, staging...Thereby stressing the OEM rod until it breaks, as shown.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Do you think this happened because the stiffer bushing didn't compress like the factory rubber one and caused the shaft to flex there? We had a car where the rubber one had cracked and moved which then was allowing the retaining washer to hit upon braking but never had a rod go like that.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

I agree!!!! Please send that if you haven't already.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Yes! Exactly the polyurethane bushings do not flex at all and are probably the worse thing to use.


Its appears they don't care how the stake holders feel.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Polyurethane does flex a little, surely not as much as the OEM rubber, especially a 40 year old rubber bushing, but they have a little give. However, a spherical bearing like the Calvert for the FoMoCo cars absolutely positively does not flex at all. So please explain why it is inadvisable to use a poly bushing while arguing to use a solid bushing instead?

The OEM strut rods were not designed to take the beatings they see when a 3500 lb car comes down from a 3+ foot wheelstand. Nor were they designed to maintain perfect alignment when someone stands on the brakes at 120+ MPH.

As you can see in that picture, the Ford strut rods are necked down and threaded and the break is at the threads which are almost certainly cut and not rolled, making them weak (stress risers galore). Coming down from a wheelstand puts those rods in tension and if there is no compliance from the bushing the rods are going to be prone to breaking at the threads. The break in the picture has nothing to do with over-tightening the bushing as the portion of the rod that is being subjected to tightening tension is between the two nuts.

I have the Calvert spherical bearing on a SS/GT 69 Mustang and I am seriously considering taking them off and replacing them with new OEM rubber. I don't think a solid bushing should be used with an OEM strut rod, especially 40+ year old units. Rather, aftermarket or custom made strut rods should be used that has enough safety factor designed in to make sure it can stand up to this sort of abuse.

If this is about safety, then the last thing you want is a solid bushing.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Bill, I don't know where you're coming from on this. I don't have an engineering background and it sounds like maybe you do..
So, are you saying the break in the picture was caused by stretching, rather than flexing?

Thanks

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Yes you are correct. The polyurethane does flex some. I think the difference between the poly and the spherical bearing is the poly doesn't let the strut rod pivot up and down therefor breaking it at the end of the threads in a shear type break as where the spherical bearing might be solid in the before and aft travel it will freely pivot up and down causing no shearing effect therefor only tensile loads are applied. I've not seen or heard of any negative issues with the spherical bearing. I agree that these strut rods where not designed to keep control when coming down off a wheelie or stabbing the breaks at 120 which would support the request for aftermarket strut rods so you can replace a 45 year old part. All of this also supports the fact that all the information on this subject has not come to light and therefor NHRA should keep investigating this issue.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

It it not tension that is the issue. Trying to flex the strut in the stiff urethane bushing is what could lead to fatigue of the strut rod . The spherical rod end allows the needed range of motion without bind or aft movement of the A- arm. Calvert explains this best, if in doubt I would call him first.


Mark Madison
7995

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Since the strut rod swings in an arc as the suspension goes through its full travel from extended to compressed, would a solid fixture such as a heim or ball type bushing on one end of the strut rod cause the cars alignment to change throughout the swing of the lower control arm?

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

No.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

I think I would want to see a metallurgical study of that fracture before I assumed that it was a shear and not tensile break. I don't want to be the one that finds out when one lets go. :eek: The poly bushings are much more resistant to vertical motion than either the rubber or spherical, but I have used them (Prothane) in the past on my '71 Mustang and have been able to pull the strut into position on the lower arm with one hand so they aren't that bad. I have a hard time seeing that the bushing could exert enough bending force to shear a strut rod even though there is more side loading than with the alternatives. Has anyone had one just bend without breaking?

I don't know of any aftermarket strut rods that are advertised as being tougher than the OEM and are direct replacements. Opentracker has a unit that looks fairly stout that might ease my mind, for one...

http://www.opentrackerracingproducts.com/strutrod/

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Are the B and E body Chrysler cars suffering the same issues as the Fords.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

X2 on the metalurgy.

Parts can have minute fractures for long periods of time before a "Montreal " size pothole causes total failure.

Dye-checking strut rods may be in the future for those requiring their own and others safety.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

This is the NHRA at it's worst! I would really like to see some response from them as to why this was done.

They allow aftermarket disc brakes that are a performance advantage over factory drums due to weight savings because they are much safer. I understand why they allow them and nobody disputes the importance of having adequate braking at high speeds with heavy cars. What's more important than high speed steering and braking in a race car?

So considering that the strut rods and their bushings directly affect high speed steering/handling and braking, shouldn't they be held in the highest regard in terms of safety and the implementation of new rules? Especially when the modifications in question offer no performance advantages?

My Belvedere at 3500 pounds going 130 mph (hoping:p) in A/S doesn't have the same safety concerns as a SS/J car? Just admit you dropped the ball NHRA and fix this before someone in a real fast heavy stocker gets hurt for absolutely no good reason at all.

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

I was told that if wheel stands are a problem, with safely controlling the movement with stock OEM rubber bushings & strut rods, wheelie bars are legal in stock....use 'em! Well anyone that has tried to hook a heavy high powered stocker on a 9" tire knows if the wheelie bars touch the ground the car's tire will unload. I can get away with riding the wheelie bars for 30' on my super stocker because it has a big fat tire.... 2 different animal's. If the majority here {poll results} are OK with aftermarket strut rods who is advising NHRA tech to not legalize after market strut rods in stock? After all it's OK to have after market strut rods on a SS/MA car and not for a A/SA ???? Where is the common sense?

Re: Suspension Notice for S/SS by NHRA
 

Exactly! I'm curious after looking at the entry list for Pomona and seeing all the brake strut rod cars that are pre entered, if they all are going to show up with rubber bushings, especially Calvert.